Fighting Fair: The Art and Science of Healthy Conflict Resolution

Fighting Fair:
The Art and Science of Healthy Conflict Resolution.
Tannaz Hosseinpour and Samia Bano

Find #ConflictResolution challenging?

Tend to get into fights with others that turn ugly?

Shutdown or get anxious when faced with a conflict?

Listen now to this interview with Tannaz Hosseinpour, registered #psychotherapist qualifying, #relationshipcoach and #author, to learn practical strategies for turning conflicts into opportunities for #deeperconnection, including #communicationskills, time-outs, and how to #breakthecycle of criticism and defensiveness.

-- Explore how to #TakeAccountability in relationships without feeling attacked or “bad,” and learn the difference between guilt and shame in building #EmotionalResilience.

-- Get real-life insights on #overcomingfear, building trust, and creating #SafeSpaces for dialogue in diverse communities.

-- Learn practical sensory and #breathingtechniques to #regulateemotions in moments when you can’t just walk away.

-- And so much more

Connect with Tannaz now at:

https://minutesongrowth.com/

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

#RelationshipAdvice #HealthyCommunication #SelfAwareness #LoveAndRelationships #EmotionalIntelligence #RelationshipGoals #HealthyRelationships #CommunityBuilding #ActiveListening #CommunicationSkills #MindfulLeadership #SenseOfBelonging #EmotionalSafety #CommunityHealing #SomaticPractices #ParentChildBond #MentalHealthAwareness #LonelinessEpidemic #HealthyRelationships

Here's the audio version of this episode:

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Full Video Transcript

SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Dzień Dobry! It's so good to be with you again and I know you'll be so happy you have joined us because we have a very, very cool guest with us today and it's Tannaz... And Tannaz you will have to help me with the pronunciation of your last name…

TANNAZ: Hosseinpour.

SAMIA: Hosseinpour... I had practiced it a little bit beforehand, but I was like, oh, I don't want to mess it up. But thank you so much for joining us and I'm so happy to have you.

TANNAZ: Thank you for having me on. I'm so excited…

SAMIA: Yes. You know, guys, those of you who are listening, Tannaz is a registered psychotherapist qualifying and a relationship coach and author. And I'm so happy to have you with us, as I said before, because I just really am.

TANNAZ: I'm excited to be on and to talk about all good things relationship.

SAMIA: Yes. Actually, on that note, Tannaz, tell us more about who you are and what you do.

TANNAZ: Of course. So my background actually was in dispute resolution law. So I was really on the reactive side of relationships and it just didn't resonate with that version of me upon graduation and I just, it wasn't something aligned with my values and just where I was in life. And so there was a person that in my book club that I was hosting at the time and she said, why don't you look into coaching? And I had no idea what that meant. And for me, coaching was like fitness coach. And I really believe that the universe speaks to us through other people. So I never take people's suggestions lightly. And I looked into it. I did my certification and got niche down on relationships to be more on the proactive side of helping individuals and couples build healthier relationships with themselves and with others. Because it was a big question mark of how do we go from I love you to. To, you don't get to have this plate and like fighting over every single thing. So that big question mark really became an invitation to learning how to cultivate these deeper, more fulfilling dynamics both in a platonic and a romantic setting. And then three years ago, went back to school for my third postgraduate degree in counseling psychotherapy so I could have more tools at my disposal helping both individuals and couples. Because I found in these eight years of doing the work that relationships are 50% inner work and then 50% relational skills. So it's learning the skills that we weren't taught or models growing up for the majority of us. And also doing the inner work of why am I the way I am? What are my triggers? What is my baggage? And just learning more about the self.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad that you have this approach in this perspective, because a lot of times when we are having difficulty with our relationships, our tendency is to focus on the other person in terms of what are they doing wrong? What do they need to change? And somehow it's much more easy to see what that person needs to correct or change in themselves than it is to see anything to do with us. And when we do have that more limited perspective, focusing on the other person's need to change, it can make things really hard. Not fun and easy at all.

TANNAZ: 100%, you're absolutely right. And listen, blaming is so much easier than taking accountability. Because taking accountability, it's like opening Pandora's box and we never know what's going to come out. And it's unfamiliar territory for us. Am I ready and willing to look at my childhood to look at those patterns, to look at my family of origin? For us, our parents are, you know, when we're kids, there are role models and there is a part of us that doesn't want to acknowledge their shortcomings. And I'm not here at all to blame parents. I think parents do the best they can with the level of awareness that they have. And one of my favorite therapists has a really interesting quote, and he's like, if you've had childhood, you've had trauma, it's like everyone has had some form of traumatic small T or big T experiences because no one is perfect and our parents are not perfect. And if we can just accept that, that they did the best they can, and sometimes their best, you know, has certain shortcomings and that's going to influence us. And the relationship between our caregivers is going to influence us. And we're going to pick up some patterns, some healthy, some maladaptive. And now it's our responsibility as an adult to look within and to change what needs to change. That takes, you know that takes a lot to do that. So that's why blaming isn't sometimes easier than, than doing the work.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. And you know, the... And I know one of the dynamics that I experienced in my business, journey of growth and learning and in my relationships is I've... And I thank God for my brain. It's a very good brain, good brain, and very smart, you know, so I'm grateful for it. And, you know, the downside of it can be that, well, you know, feeling like I'm smarter than a lot of people around me, you know, put me in this mindset of sort of like not only judging other people, but being really, really confident that my judgments were correct. And it's like, no, but I'm making a really accurate diagnosis. I remember having this conversation multiple times with my sisters, with my sister, one of my sisters in particular who, you know, like, I was very socially challenged, but she has, even from when she was a little child, been very socially intelligent and just like a very people's person and just naturally, I mean, seemed to know how to love people and get people to love her. And I would often like, you know, have these conversations with her where, you know, she was trying to help me. And she'd be like, okay, well even if you are correct in what you are thinking, iIt's not helpful for you to think like that, you know, so it's... Judgments are like a very tricky, very tricky thing. It's like, even if you're correct in your judgments, it's still not helpful mindset.

TANNAZ: Yeah. Thank you for vulnerably sharing that. That's such a vulnerable share. And it takes a lot to be able to look at self and say, ok, these are the judgments that are within me and how these judgments are manifesting in my relationships. And I think what you gave was a perfect example of half of it being the inner work and then half of it being okay, can I cultivate certain skills that will help me build better relationships with others?

SAMIA: Yes. What are some of these skills when you think about cultivating.

TANNAZ: These dynamics? Yeah, sure. So there's so many, but I like to be as practical as I can be, so let's break them down. It's the skill of communication, the skill of conflict resolution. So how can we fight fair? I think fighting has such a bad rep, like conflict. People are just like worried about conflict and they think it's the end of the dynamic. It means we're not friends anymore or we're going to break up. But conflict can actually become a medium for much deeper connection between individuals if done correctly. So I'll break down conflict fighting fair because I think that's a big thing that people struggle with, my self included, until I learned these skills because they weren't modeled to me. So I was growing, I grew up in a household where one parent would shut down and one parent would get anxious that the other person shut down and no one really resolved things. I didn't see constructive conflict resolution, it was more like brushed under the rug. So when we are fighting fair, a few things matter. One is this concept of intention and impact. A lot of the times we say, but, no, no, no, my intention was not to hurt you. But we have to realize that impact matters just as much. So while my intention is pure, I have to take accountability for the impact of my actions. How that person felt, that was the impact of my actions. And when we take accountability, the other person feels validated and feels seen, and their guards come up. So one is intention and impact equally mattering in the resolution. The second is for us to realize that when we are stressed or triggered in conflict, the prefrontal cortex, which is our rational brain, that goes offline. And the prefrontal cortex is. It's responsible for impulse control, emotional regulation, problem solving, communication. When that goes offline, the amygdala, which is a fear center, it takes over, and it becomes harder to listen, to communicate, to think. So why is this important? Because if me and you are convers, things get heated. It's so important for us to take a time out because I can't hear what you're saying and you can't hear what I'm saying. We're just talking, but we're not talking to understand. We're not listening to understand. We're listening to respond. And so at the end of it, we both leave feeling extremely frustrated that I don't feel heard. Why? Why do you not understand what I'm saying? Am I speaking a different language? I hear this one often. I speak speaking a different language for you. It really is biology. We need to bring in biology into the mix. So taking time out of whether it's a safe word, apples, bananas, or ocean, whatever that word is. But once it's declared, the parties take a timeout. And we're seeing through research on nervous system regulation, we need a minimum of 20 minutes. So go for a walk, go grab a glass of cold water, rub some ice cubes on your wrist or the back of your neck, put your face in the freezer, start singing, humming, shaking, shaking your wrist, shaking your body. There are so many tools, and I actually have a free ebook on my website, 11 Tools for Nervous System Regulation. But there's many tools that you can start to practice to regulate yourself, and then come back to the conversation and say, okay, I'm ready to try this again.

SAMIA: Yeah.

TANNAZ: I want to understand what you're saying. So timeouts are also important. And then what I would add to that, I don't want to overwhelm the audience with information. But how we say something matters. And I'll break this down even more because I want to be as practical as I can be. Sometimes the problem no longer is the problem. The person's character becomes the problem. So the problem is not that I came home and the dishes were unwashed. You are dirty, you are selfish. So this is criticism. When I criticize someone, what's going to happen? They will either criticize me back and say, I am selfish, I am dirty... Have you seen yourself? And we're going to ping pong into war. Or they'll go into over explaining. But you don't understand. I had such a long day. I did this and I did that... So either I become a martyr, I become a victim, or I go into over explaining not going to solve the problem. So what is the antidote to criticism and defensiveness? For criticism, it's gentle startup. When X happens, I feel Y. I need said... When I come home and the dishes are unwashed, I feel so overwhelmed. I need us to figure out a schedule for cleaning that serves both of us. For defensiveness, it's taking accountability. I can understand how frustrating it must feel when you come home and you see the dishes unwashed. Right. So for the person getting defensive is to take accountability of that person's experience to validate that person's experience. And for the person who's being critical to shift into gentle startup. These are just some of the tools of how we can relational skills, communication skills, of how we can fight fair…

SAMIA: Thank you so much for sharing those examples. Yeah. And to distinguish between these different kinds of attack modes, if it were that we can fall into, because you're so right that one strategy will not be effective in different contexts. And I must say that this has been one of the lessons that I had to learn in the context of when I was getting training to be a crisis counselor for a sexual assault and domestic violence hotline. And in that context also, there's an added element of cause because if you're dealing with like if you're in an abusive relationship and your partner is on an agenda to exercise power and control over you, I mean, that of course brings in another element that you need to be aware of and learn how to handle in the most effective ways, I won't get too much into that right now because that can sort of take us off in a very different direction. But yeah, to recognize, okay, there's these different, I mean, I guess we could say coming from a place of like just... Actually, so tell me a little bit more about the taking accountability part. So it's like if somebody is criticizing and I want to take accountability for the impact that I'm having on somebody, that was something that I know I struggled with a lot because even when I started to learn better communication skills and better relationship skills, I was like, I don't want to feel blamed. I don't want to feel judged. That was like, really hard for me. And you know, like, when you are like learning, oh, you know, the negative sides of, of being judgmental, you know. So for a while I got judgmental about being judgmental. I was like, I cannot tolerate anyone being judgmental.

TANNAZ: Yeah. Yeah.

SAMIA: Oh, gosh. It's just so like, for me, I know, like shame and guilt, for example, are very, very difficult emotions for people to deal with. And like, for me, that is what would get triggered when I felt judged, you know, and so I was like really just trying to protect myself from having to deal with feeling shame or guilt. And so it was really difficult for me to just listen to any kind of criticism.

TANNAZ: Yeah, yeah, listen, you said it so well. It's the underlying feelings of that. Before I answer your question, I really need to make a point. Most of these concepts that we're talking about, they don't apply when abuse is present. Physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse, with abuse, we're entering into a whole different, into a whole different realm. So what I am talking about is relationships where there's conflict, but not abusive conflict. So I just needed to make that distinction. But to answer your question, the concept that I'm speaking about, criticism and defensiveness, they fall under the four horsemen. It is a term coined by the Gottman Institute, the leading institute on relationships. And they have found that these four horsemen, these four like communication taboos, can be destructive to relationships. So the first is criticism, the second is defensiveness, the third is stonewalling, and the fourth is contempt. So contempt is criticism on steroids. It is now... The respect in the relationship has now dwindled verbally. It sounds like sarcasm, belittling. Did you, were you raised in a barn? Like, did your parents not teach you better? Did your mom not tell you how to be a clean boy to nonverbal, like smirking, a rolling your eyes. If you watch political debates, you'll notice that the politicians are doing the non verbal contempt of like where half their lip goes up, right? And so it's a sign of disrespect. I don't respect you. And research has found the Gottman Institute's research has found that if it is present, there's a 93% chance of a divorce. So what does that tell us? That tells us that we need to become aware of these communication folk, like unhealthy styles and the antidote of how to fix it. Now, you mentioned taking accountability for the impact of our actions can be difficult. And one of the reasons for that is exactly as you outlined. It's what, what it brings to the surface. So if I am being criticized, there is a difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is I did something bad. Shame is I am bad. It becomes a part of the identity. I don't want to be bad. This feeling of I'm not good enough, I'm not enough, that's what's being triggered. That's the wound that's being triggered. So this is where the 50% inner work comes to place of I need to go within and see when did this wound develop in my body, what triggers it and how can I heal that wound, how can I process that wound and how can I take away the resistance to accountability and the narrative of what that means for me, it's the stories we make, right? So when I'm saying that, that stories, if I take accountability, it means I'm bad and no one wants to be bad. Everything we do, healthy or maladaptive, is an attempt to feel safe and safety means to be in our comfort zone, in our familiar zone. So the reason I'm talking about this is because I want to remove the shame around doing the work and for the way we've react, we've responded in the past. We did the best with what we knew, with what we had. When we know better, we can do better to extend grace. I've done every negative coping strategy has been an attempt to keep myself safe. Extending compassion, extending grace while doing the inner work is so, so, so powerful. But another part to your answer is validation doesn't necessarily equate to agreeing. Sometimes we think if I validate your experience, it means I agree with your experience, I can understand something and not agree with it. So your feelings are valid. If that thing, same thing happened to me, I wouldn't feel that way. But that's my experience and that's your experience. I'm here to validate your experience for you. And validating your experience doesn't mean my experience is invalidated. They can coexist.

SAMIA: Yes. Yes. You know, you brought to mind sort of recent interaction that I had, like from my side. I didn't feel in conflict with the person, but the other person was feeling upset with me. And thankfully, you know, given the level of skills and healing work that I've done on myself, you know, I was able to handle the situation in a very different way than I would have even a few years ago. And part of what that other person was expressing was they thought that I was devaluing their contributions and how hard they had worked in the context of a certain project that we were working on together. And, you know, the thing that I realized in the moment was, oh, you know, if it were true and I felt like my work was not being valued and so forth, I would feel really upset, too, you know, and I was able to actually see that about her in the moment. And so instead of getting all like, no, that's not true. I am... I value your work. And why are you talking about. How could you even think such a thing? Happily, like, in that moment, I was able to be like, "Oh, you know what? I hear what you're saying. And, you know, if I was in your shoes, and if that happened to me, I would feel really upset, too." And like, for me, I could say that very honestly and say that and not feel like I was taking on blame or agreeing to something that I thought was incorrect or whatever, you know, so it's like, for me, the way that I... Like how I respond to somebody, like, I need to be able to do it in a way that feels honest to me. Like, I don't want to acknowledge something that doesn't feel true to me either. And so to have an understanding of, like, what's going on for me, like, if I do feel triggered or not, if I don't feel triggered, then how can I still respond with compassion to the other person? That is really, really critical. And it's so great that you're making us think about these very practical situations we can find ourselves in. That's really helpful.

TANNAZ: Yeah, yeah. Honestly, because we weren't taught them, right? We weren't taught in school. How do we acknowledge people's emotions? How do we validate them? How do we fight fair? You know, we got in trouble. If there was a fight in school, for me, it was like, detention. No one sat down and said, like, what happened? What caused the conflict? How can we navigate through it? So these are skills that now, thanks to social media, thanks to the Internet, to podcasts, we're gaining more insights into, and it's going to take time. When I usually, when I work with couples and I teach them, this new language. The first couple of times they fight, they're like, this is so fake. Like, this feels so fake. They'd rather go back to their old ways of slamming doors and shoot shouting and shutting down. But because of neuroplasticity, because we know the mind can create new neural pathways with time and repetition. This becomes their new normal. And that cycle, that pattern, that maladaptive pattern that they picked up from their environment is broken and a new one is created.

SAMIA: What's up with all the bad rep, as it were, that conflict Cats? Because you're so right, you know, like, you see this again and again. So one of the contexts that we have been really challenged in terms of dealing with conflict is in the context of our community relationships. You know, like right now I'm living in Los Angeles, and we are one of the most diverse, diverse communities in the world. You know, and we have people from all over the world from different religious backgrounds, different ethnic backgrounds, different linguistic backgrounds, you name it. If there's some way humans can be diverse, they're probably part of the mix here in LA. And when you're living in the midst of such diversity, you know, misunderstandings happen. Conflicts come up because we just don't know. We need to know each other better. And most of the time there's, you know, you don't know enough of the "other". I put that in quotes. To be able to understand them, to have sufficient empathy and compassion for them. And because, like, conflict is given such a bad rep. A lot of times, like, especially since, you know. So one of the things I should mention is I've gotten involved in city government. I'm part of Advisory, Equity and Human relations, advisory committee to our city. And because of the nature of our committee, you know, a lot of times when there are human relations, when conflicts are popping up in our community, you know, these are matters that come before us as a committee. And, you know, one of the challenges that I'm feeling is that on the one hand, like, for me and a number of other members of our committee, you know, we are like, okay, let's talk about it. Let's convene community conversations and let's talk through some of these sentences. But, like, especially one of the first times that we attempted to convince convene a community conversation, we got so much resistance from people on staff in the city and also members of the community themselves who are just so scared that, you know, that all kinds of things would go wrong, that, you know, when we did a community conversation would just turn into a shouting match and it would create even more disruption and unhealthy conflict in the community. And there were like so many people who basically were like, no, this is a bad idea and you should not have a, have this community conversation. And we were like, no, you know, there are ways you can organize and set up and structure having a community conversation where we can talk about something difficult and do it in a way that helps to create peace, you know, and yes, we will not be able to do everything in the context of one community conversation, but we don't have to stop at one. We can keep going, etc, etc... And I gotta tell you, it like took us literally months and months of like ground building work and outreach and just advocating for even the idea that it was good idea to have a community conversation because people are just so afraid of dealing with conflict, talking about conflict.

TANNAZ: Yeah, yeah, I completely understand. I mean, I'm based out of Toronto and we have a very multicultural environment and community too. So there's a few elements when you were sharing that, that came to mind. One is curiosity saves relationships. Assumptions break them. So most of the time we are operating from a place of assumptions because let's say I'm a Persian background, someone might make an assumption that I, I think the same way as another person who has a Persian background, right. Instead of being curious with my experience, how is my experience different than the other person's? And that willingness to see the world through someone else's eyes, that brings a lot of fear. Because we have been taught that only one reality can exist. Multiple realities puts our reality in jeopardy. It's an old narrative, but multiple realities can coexist. I can have an experience and you can have an experience. And neither one of our experiences is superior or inferior,

to one another. They can be in the same room. We can hold space for both. And me validating yours doesn't take away from mine and vice versa, but there is fear around it. And I understand a lot of this fear, by the way, is societal fear of having your rights taken away from you, social injustice. So there's very varying elements that play into this distrust that has happened because trust really is the foundation. Even in therapy, they've done research on what is the most effective modality when healing patients. Like, what is it? Is it cbt? Is it psychodynamic? And they found that it's actually the therapeutic alliance. It's the relationship between the therapist and the client. If that relationship feels safe and secure. Healing, growth, change can happen. So do we feel there is a level of trust between community members and this committee? If not, that distrust is going to prevent us from allowing space for different experiences to coexist. So then we go to the basics of how do we repair that trust? It's the same. These are same skills that you can apply in a platonic friendship, in a romantic or even in a community setting. Because when there is a rupture, so when you know, something happens and a disconnection happens, are we proactively trying to repair that rupture? Tell me how I can repair this dynamic? Tell me how I can regain your trust?  What do I need to do? How do I need to show up for us to move forward and with a community, it's just done at a larger scale. But trust really becomes the foundation of it. And also this ability to sit with uncomfortable feelings, many of us avoid it. We don't want to. We don't want to sit with our uncomfortable feelings. I'd rather numb it. I'd rather go scrolling on Instagram or escaping or running away or shouting. I have not been taught, again, this is emotional regulation that a majority of the population, myself included, was not taught growing up of. How do I sit... Excuse me, with anger, with disappointment, with frustration, with sadness, with a wide. With grief, even with joy. Some people can't sit with joy. And so there's like numbing. Numbing mechanisms that they'll take, that they'll engage in, engage with. So also learning that. Also learning how to sit with these. With these emotions, these big emotions and how to process them, because they will come up, right? We... Yes. Multiple realities can coexist. And something you say might be extremely triggering to me. How can I process that trigger? How can I sit with the emotion that that trigger has just brought up for me?

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. When... This reminds me of something, you were like, mentioning earlier about the importance of taking a break or a time out, you feel triggered. So in the context of, you know, if you're in a professional setting or if you are like, in this kind of community, a conversation setting, I mean, of course, as an individual, you can be like, okay, I need to take a break. I'm going to step out. And I would definitely encourage anyone to do so if and when they need to. But for, like, from the perspective of, like, the moderator of the program or facilitator of the conversation, other than, you know, like, let's say building breaks in the program and making sure. Because if we are talking about something intense. Want to make sure we break take breaks to give people a chance to catch their breath. So that's something we definitely did in the context of how we planned our community conversation. But are there any other tips or insights I just be curious about about it from your perspective in terms of how to even think about struct, like how do you create that safety container if you want to have a difficult conversation or courageous conversation with a group of people?

TANNAZ: Yeah. Ooh... I'm loving these questions because it really is allowing us to share very practical tools that you can apply in any setting, corporate or social. But so I'm going to give you an example of like if I'm working with a couple intensive sessions. So we have, let's say a full day. And so yes, there's going to be breaks to kind of decompress. But what can I put on the table for them to say they have a few tools at, at their disposal. So I might put a stress ball, right. Just so that they can squeeze it if they do get stressed. So research has shown us that anything that can bring us into the present moment using our five senses can be really helpful. So maybe sometimes I'll put like an essential oil or a candle with a scent with a very calming chamomile scent. I might put on like a tea section with herbal teas, chamomile, peppermint, something that's warm, even coffee, decaf coffee. Because once I'm holding the cup, I can feel the sensation. The warmth of that cup again brings me to the present moment. Having some salty and sweet snacks. Once we're. Once we take a piece of chocolate or we take like a sour gummy bear, that sensation, that taste again brings us into the present moment. Another grounding tool. I might throughout the session just say, okay, why don't we just take a few slow, deep breaths together, inhaling for four and exhaling for four. So when we are in group settings, presentations, speeches, I love to teach a balanced breath. Balance breath is inhale and exhale are the same amount of seconds. So let's do 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5. Moderator can do this with them. So let's do three rounds of four, four breath or the person. There's been many instances where I've been in a group setting and I've gotten extremely triggered. But I couldn't excuse myself to go to the washroom. And so as I'm sitting there, I'm just doing the 4, 4 breath in through the nose. I'm inhaling through the nose and exhaling through the nose. No one has any idea what I'm doing, but I am internally regulating myself. So now we have these self regulation tools that we can do privately in a public setting. That's one of them. Another one I like to do is to push my hands onto each other looking like a prayer post for those who are only listening to the audio. So what that does is, and you, you don't need to bring it up, you can just have it down, right? And so no one can again see what you're doing. That pressure and that heat that is being created in my hands again brings me to the present moment. Or I might squeeze my toes and push them onto the ground and, and visualize. So this is one step, take it a step further. Visualize these thick tree roots coming out of the sole of my feet and going deep into the earth. And that grounds me. So these are all somatic practices that have lots of research behind them that help us regulate our nervous system when we are dysregulated, either doing them in a reactive way. So after triggering or proactively, before I even get triggered, doing that hand pose, doing the toes, the sole, the tree roots coming out the sole of your feet, having a warm cup of tea next to me or ice cold water next to me, having these around me, I'm like setting myself up for success. Even if I'm in a corporate meeting, I will have some of these with me so that I am prepared.

SAMIA: Yes, I love that. I love that. Because that, you know, that I must say, was one of the biggest concerns that people had. And you're so right about the, the trust factor as well. Because I think one of the reasons why we were getting so much resistance to our committee organizing the community conversation is because people didn't know us either. We're a relatively new committee actually in the city. And it was one of the first times you were like, let's do a community conversation. So people definitely had a lack of experience and therefore trust in our capacity to handle things. And that's actually why like when we did put in like several months of work in terms of reaching out to the community members, having so many one on one meetings with key leaders and concerned folks in the community, eventually, thank God, we were able to have a community conversation. And by and large we got very positive feedback and people were actually like, yes, we want more. So I was like, yay... You see, we can do this.

TANNAZ: I love that…

SAMIA: Yeah, right. And, and some of the tools that you mentioned, I'm real we did incorporate some of them, but you have just expanded my sense of what more we could do. So I thank you so much.

TANNAZ: Of course, of course. Thank you for doing the work, the community work. And it's really important. And by the way, it brings a sense of belongingness which helps us with our self esteem. Self esteem really is influenced by a sense of I belong, I matter, my presence matters. So it, it helps both on a personal level as well as a collective level because it enhances the collective sense of safety as well.

SAMIA: Yes, you know, that was one of the big things, that sense of, of belongingness and how it's connected to the sense of safety. And I've seen that connection play out both in the context of our personal relationships and also in, in the context of the community relationships. Like I was realizing in the context of our personal relationships, like I was like really having, you know, this conversation with someone about what is it about love, you know, like in a relationship that... Well, I was thinking about it honestly primarily in the context of parent child relationship. I've just been in this phase of my life where I've been thinking a lot about parent child relationships not only because of my own parent child relationship in terms of my parents and myself. I don't have kids, but you know, I am a child, of course, and thankfully I still have my parents, but also now I'm in a place in my life where my brothers and my sisters, they have, have little kids. I have lots of nieces and nephews that I love to death. And you know, it just thinking about, you know, like what is, I mean, because there's just so much we can learn about love and how to live in the context of, you know, being in our, these relationships, these parent child or parent or caregiver relationships. And like one of my sisters who is a new mom, like she's her daughter is just about a year or so old now and she was like. And I was like really trying to dig in with her about what is that love between a parent and a child like, and what makes it different from any other love that we might experience in other relationships and stuff. And she was like, you know, you remember reading that book, this is actually a young adult novel that we were both into. It's like, oh gosh, I'm forgetting now the name of the author. I might mess it up. But it was vampires. Twilight was the first, first book in the series. It was like vampires and warewolves in there. But when there was in the book they described this very interesting phenomenon that the werewolves would experience where they would imprint on someone. And it didn't happen all the time with everyone, but certain werewolves would imprint on someone. And when you imprinted on someone, it builded, like, it created this, like, sense of connection between you and the person you imprinted on that was, like, so deep. But also so pure. And it was like that the person you imprinted on became the center of your universe. And you were like your entire self became oriented towards. I love this person. What do they need? What can I do to make them happy, to make sure they're safe and taken care of and so forth. And my sister was like, you know, that's what I feel like has happened with me and my baby. So I've just imprinted on my baby. It's like, now, suddenly, here's this little being who's, like, the center of my. My universe, my sunshine, my... Like, wherever she goes, she's a part of my awareness. Whatever I'm doing, you know, she's part of my awareness. And I'm always thinking about, you know, what does she need to be loved and taken care of and, you know, those kinds of things... And I was like, wow. You know, I mean, that made, like, clicked something in my mind, because I was like, no, that is rare. That is not something that I don't think I've experienced yet with anyone else. I mean, I love my parents. I love my mom. I love my dad. I love my brother and sister, but I wouldn't say that I've ever had that experience of such. And she talked about, you know, this sense of, like, unquestioning, like, this knowing without question that we belong to each other. And my baby belongs to me. I belong to my baby. We just belong to each other. And there's no question about it, you know? And so that was, again, like, something that I was like, whoa. I mean, I don't think all of us get to experience that level of, you know, unquestioning feeling of belongingness. And there's something, I think, just so profound. I mean, and she used the word love to describe that, but I think it was also, like, from what I could hear her saying, it was also, like, so much connected to that feeling of safety also, like, when you know you belong, like, there's no... Like, you don't worry about, like, am I good enough? You know, or whatever... It's like, no, we jus belong to each other. We are one. And so it's just, you know, the two things are very connected, the belongingness and the safety…

TANNAZ: Hundred percent.

SAMIA: Yeah.

TANNAZ: One hundred percent. Yeah, exactly. As you said, sense of belongingness gives us a sense of my presence matters. And if my presence matters, then I'm safe in the here and now. This place is safe for me to show up as myself and be accepted and be seen and be heard and be understood. And that's ultimately what every human being wants, is the feeling of feeling seen, heard, valued, appreciated, understood. And so community, families can become mediums of that. If we don't get that in family, we can build that in community, we can build that in friendships, we can build that in community service. And, and that's why, you know, we are traditionally tribal people. We thrive in supportive communities. We are meant to be with one another. However, as a result of globalization and so many other phenomenons, we have been separated from our tribes and we've been given this illusion of connectivity because of technology and social media and the Internet and our phones, our smartphones. But nothing beats that physical one on one or in a group setting, just being in close proximity to another safe person. I want to really emphasize on the word safe person, a person who sees us without judgment, who accepts us without judgment. There is no other feeling compared to that because in that moment I feel seen, I feel safe, I feel I belong and I matter. And if I matter, then my presence has value. And if I have value, then my self esteem goes up. I remember my self worth. Self worth, in my opinion, is not something we earn. It's something we remember. So we're going to our truth. It can be very, very powerful. And I always stress this of if you don't have that community, build it for yourself. Take the unusual routes to it. During COVID I was deeply craving community that I could discuss Persian poetry about. And I have the best friends in the world, but they didn't have that shared interest and that's okay. And so I found that community. I actually didn't find it. I created that community online on meetup.com and after a couple of weeks we're in lockdown, but we were able to to meet up every week on Zoom, have these deep, meaningful conversations and build real friendships that to this day exist. So if that which you're seeking does not exist in your current reality, pursue it and build it yourself and allow yourself to go back to that sense of belongingness because you do belong. We just need to remember that truth.

SAMIA: Yes. Ah, they to know that you do belong. And to just it's just a matter of remembering that. Oh, gosh... Ah... That I think that in itself is such a deep insight that you're bringing out Tannaz, and I want to dig way deeper into it with you. And I'm like, oh, gosh, I think we're running out of time for today. No... So you're welcome to come back and we could keep talking.

TANNAZ: I would love that…

SAMIA: Do you have any last thoughts, though, for right now?

TANNAZ: No. I think we covered so much. I really value the insights you brought that kind of brought up these conversations. I know we went completely in a different direction, but we are in experiencing a loneliness epidemic right now, and it's now more important than ever before to have these conversations and to remember these truths and to lean into one another and to find these safe communities and to be a part of them. It's so, so, so, so important for our mental health, for our physical health. So that's all I'm going to say is. Let us not underestimate the value of community and friendship.

SAMIA: Yes. Thank you so much for that, Tannaz. And I'm going to just give my last reminder to our audience to please make sure you check the show notes because we will be dropping Tannaz's links in there so you can connect with her and continue to learn and get the help and support you need whenever you're ready for it. And until we connect next time, I wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)