Beyond the Wedding: Navigating the Uncharted Realities of Marriage.

Beyond the Wedding: Navigating the Uncharted Realities of Marriage. Allison Orlovsky & Samia Bano

Fact: In the USA, first marriages still end in divorce at a rate of approximately 35-50%, while second marriages face an even higher likelihood of dissolution, ranging from 60-70% or more.

Listen now to this interview with Allison Orlovsky, #Relationship and #IntimacyCoach, to learn what you can do to #bulletproof your marriage and 10X your passion, play and partnership forever!

NOTE: This is a proactive approach that is especially beneficial for #newlyengaged couples and #newlyweds, enabling them to effectively navigate the uncharted realities of marriage.

Learn more about Allison and how she can help you design a great, #healthyrelationship at:

https://www.relationship-revolution.com/

You can also connect with Allison at: https://www.facebook.com/allison.m.orlovsky

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

#relationshipadvice #healthyrelationships #newlymarriedcouple #newlywed #engagedcouple #BeyondTheWedding #RelationshipRevolution #IntentionalLove #ConnectionMatters #EquityInLove #HappilyEverAfter #PerfectlyImperfect #CultivateFeelings #RelationshipJourney #NavigatingLifeTogether #LoveInAction #RelationshipGoals #AdaptingToChange #RelationshipVision #CommunicationSkills #HealthyRelationships #RevolutionizeLove #ConflictToConnection #NurturingLove #RelationshipBliss #FeelTheLove #DynamicConnections #LoveInTheDetails #JourneyOfLove #RelationshipTransformation #CreateConnection #IntimateConversations #LoveAndGrowth #RelationshipEmpowerment #RelationshipMythsDebunked #realitiesoflife

Here's the audio version of this episode:

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Full Video Transcript

SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet! It's really, really good to be with you again. You know, I am extra happy and excited today. Why? Because you have a returning guest that I love, and so extra welcome to you, Allison... Welcome back.

ALLISON: So, so happy to be here. We had so much fun last time.

SAMIA: Yes, indeed. And Allison, for those of our listeners who may have missed our last episode, will you please tell us more about who you are and what you do?

ALLISON: Yes, absolutely. I am a Relationship and Intimacy Coach, and I help couples level up the passion, play, and partnership in their relationship so that they can just experience so much joy, fulfillment, and love. If you're going to be in a relationship, it should be a great one. So I am here to support you in creating that in a way that is fulfilling and meaningful for you, because everybody has their own idea. So that's what I love to do. I'm so excited to be here and talk about all things love and relationships…

SAMIA: Yes. And I love, Alison, that you get the importance of play in the relationship. You get the importance of fun in the relationship. And there's so much of what you teach is also about helping create more ease in the relationship. So I think we're a great match in terms of your approach, what you teach, how you teach, and what our audience loves to learn, which is to make change fun and easy…

ALLISON: Yes.

SAMIA: So just, again for those of you who missed our last episode, please go into our archive and check it out. Last time, Allison and I were talking about why and how self-love is so critical to our ability to have a healthy, happy relationship. And Allison talked about four pillars of self-love...It was, like, really, really enlightening because so often, you know, when we think about self love, we think about it in too narrow a way. A lot of people think self-care is self-love. You take care of your body… you go take a bubble bath or whatever, but that's just a very small part of self-love, and there's so much more to it.And I loved how you laid out the four pillars of self-love. It was just absolutely brilliant, Allison. Thank you for that…

ALLISON: Thank you. I think when we talk about self-love, I found that for myself included, that it did seem very one dimensional in terms of, okay, well, I am taking care of eating healthy, working out. And so when people would say, well, you need to love yourself, then I would be like, well, what does that mean? How do I do that? It just felt very vague…

SAMIA: Yeah.

ALLISON: And so as I started studying and working and doing my own personal growth and development, what I realized, just to recap those four pillars is… self-care is one of them. But self-worth, self-trust, and self-forgiveness... And when we can work on all of those in different aspects, right... An opportunity to trust ourselves, will present itself one day. An opportunity to forgive ourself will show up another day. We don't have to do all of them perfectly all of the time. But when we can think in those pillars, how to foster those in our life, our self-love will grow naturally. Like, then the self-love is a byproduct of self-care, self-trust, self-worth, and self-forgiveness.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. And you know, I think given that we focused on the self-love aspect of things last time, this time I think it would be really great to really sort of talk more about the relationship dynamics between us. And so I have been keeping an eye on your social media. And I know you have a new program coming up called "Beyond the Wedding" for engaged and newlywed couples. And so wow... Can you tell us more? What's that all about? What are some of the core challenges that you help people address in that program? What are the solutions? So we'll dig into it. Just tell me more…

ALLISON: Yes. Thank you. I am, I'm super excited about this new program.I've done a beta test and it was amazing. And where... it was inspired by the fact that I really... let me pause for a second… a little backstory to help create some context is that I was, I've been married and divorced twice by the time I was 35. And never in a million years did I think I would be married and divorced once, let alone twice... And so when that showed up in my life, I was like, I needed to do some work. I did not want another relationship, another marriage… I did not want three strikes and I'm out... I want third times a charm. And what do I need to do? What do I need to learn? How do I need to grow in order to make that a reality? And so the last twelve years, now I'm giving away my age, but the last twelve years have all been about what it takes to build a really strong, meaningful relationship. And within that came a lot of the self-love. But to focus on… I share that because “Beyond The Wedding” is really about all the things that we don't know, that we don't even know about being married. And the realities that come with marriage and how do we navigate them so that we can have a successful, joyful, meaningful marriage or long-term relationship. Marriage isn't necessarily for everyone, so that's not an expectation. But to have that connection with someone, how do we do that? And I really want to teach people proactively... For a long time I was coaching people on the verge of divorce. And usually by that time they felt hopeless and helpless. And it was a lot of work. And they just felt like, well, kind of this is my last ditch effort… and that didn't feel good for me as a coach. And so I'm like, how can I have a bigger impact?

And I can have a bigger impact by being… teaching people proactively how to nurture their relationships, and take the stigma away from getting support. Marriage counseling has such a bad rap... And so, right… It things like… I'm a failure and I've done something wrong… and I don't know, just, you know, just bad vibes... And ultimately when we think about it, we go to college for 2, 4, 6, 8 years to learn our career. We are taught, right, like the thing that we're going to do for 30 or 40 years... And the thing that is supposed to mean the most to us, the thing that is supposed to outlast everything else in our life… the kids leave the house, we retire from our career… is our relationship. And there is no education out there... Everybody is doing their best and we are all just winging it... frankly. And so I really want to change that dynamic. I want to change the story. I want to normalize... I want to revolutionize... I want…  that's my company is Relationship Revolution. I want to revolutionize how we do relationships and how we think about them and how we get supported in them because they can be the source of your greatest joy, and the worst trauma.

SAMIA: Yeah.

ALLISON: And so right, like they’re very... It's very big. Relationships are big.

SAMIA: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I think relationships are the biggest... I mean, just the other day I was having a conversation with another coach I was interviewing, and I have personally had this issue in my life where, you know… like, questioning, what's the purpose of my life? What's the point of my life? But not just my life, of life itself... Because I would look at all the different things that I was supposed to be doing in life and I'd be like, if I didn't do it, it wouldn't really matter. I mean, the world would still go on... And you know like… it's just... The only thing that I could really find in my life that ultimately, I feel like, gave actual meaning and purpose that I could hold on to and have my life feel meaningful was… it all came down to relationships. It all came down to, okay, who am I loving and who's loving me and how are we able to deepen that and make that better? And when there's conflict, how do I manage that more and better? It all came down... And then even as I started to think about the idea of relationships… like, oh, actually we also have our relationship with the earth. Because thinking about, in my generation, climate change like this reality that, I mean, that I cannot ignore... And I'm so worried about our future generations. Like, I don't have kids and I'm like… I don't know, logically I don't even want to have kids because what's coming in terms of the chaos, the problems that our future generations are going to have to face because of climate change... Wow, it's like super scary. But anyway, that's a whole separate issue... The point is, like, even when we think about, okay, all of these problems that we have to face, it comes down to relationship. You know, how are we going to solve them? It's all about healing our relationship with the earth, healing our relationships with each other so we can be more loving with each other… so learning about relationships, and doing it better, I mean, that's extremely important work. Yup.

ALLISON: It is. Because how we typically do one relationship is how we do all of our relationships.

SAMIA: Yes…

ALLISON: So while I focus on the romantic side, right, that's just the door, that's the focus. But most likely, you know, your level of communication, your level of empathy, your level of, you know, of understanding, impacts your relationship with your children, impacts your relationship with your parents and your coworkers and your neighbors... Right? It really, it really does. And so when we can learn some of these relationship skills… and I just create a container, right…. But that we get to use them in all of our relationships.

SAMIA: Yes... Yes. Oh, my gosh... You just reminded me of... I used to… I realize now that this is not the wisest perspective I held, but I used to have this perspective where I remember one time I was talking with one of my girlfriends who had just, like, a lot of issues in her home. She was living with her parents, sisters, etcetera. And she had a lot of issues in her home. And one of her constant focuses was… I need to get out of here. I need to get out of here. And her thinking was, I need to get married so I can get out of here. And I remember having this one conversation with her, and I was like… but you know, how... your focus on just getting out of there by getting married… it didn't seem to me like a great idea because I was like… if you can't get along with your parents, you can't get along with your siblings, you're struggling with that so much…. And your siblings are good people, your parents are good people. I know her whole family. Our families know each other. I was like, if you can't figure it out with them, what makes you think you can figure it out with this new person that you're going to end up with? And it was like this question that just popped out of me, and it was left hanging in the air, and neither of us really had an answer. But there was something in me that felt like it was a very significant question. But fast forward a little bit. She did get married. She did get out of her home, and she's still married to the same person, and they seem to be working it out. And it's not that it's been challenge-free for her, but I realized that in her situation, like, she has gone through so much learning. It seems like she ended up with a really great mother-in-law who has been really coaching her and supporting her and sort of training her in how to be in her relationship with her husband. I was like, oh, thank God for that. And so she’s like just making it work. But I was really scared for her and how she would make it work in the new relationship when she couldn't manage things in her current ones with her family.

ALLISON: Yeah, that's a beautiful observation and a really powerful question to put out there... What makes you... you know, and what makes think that this would be different? And there could be a really valid answer. Her beliefs may not align with what her parents right? Well, her parents are good people, but if they're telling her something that she doesn't believe, there is energy around that. And that is one of the things that we talk about in the program… not, you know, like  that's... There's two different types when we get into families influences… there's a passive influence and an active influence that families have on us. And so it's a both… and… it's both, yes, how you do relationships in one place often is how you do them in all places... And when we are exposed to another side of the family, right, now her husband's side of the family… that can be supportive because that might be more aligned with who she was becoming and her beliefs. And it doesn't mean that her family was wrong, but just that intensity might have been too much for her. So I don't know if that's true... It's just one of those things… but that... and that's what makes relationships so complicated is because there's no rulebook. Every situation, every circumstance, is always a little nuanced, it's always a little different. Everybody's personality, right? You have all these… the things that make us brilliant and unique, all of our individual personalities. Then when you try and match them up with other people, that do create conflict and challenges. And so it's learning how to navigate those... So while… and here's the thing though… While relationships can be really challenging, we often make them harder than they need to be. Is… right… and so... And that can show up in a lot of different ways. It can show up in just not having… like, just have the conversation. And when we avoid conflict or what we perceive to be conflict, then we're avoiding a conversation that we could just have that might clear everything up, or give clarity that this is not a person I want in my life anymore.

SAMIA: Yeah.

ALLISON: We don't ask deeper level questions to get a full understanding of things. We make everything… like, in our culture, especially the American culture, there is so much... what's the word… worth and validity placed with working hard and things… like, overcoming hard things, right. The harder you work, the more money you make. The harder... Like there's this tie… And so we automatically make things difficult so that it feels like when we achieved them, we've done something really big. And so that doesn't always need to be the truth in our relationships.And so it's just, again, so many dynamics… here we go on the tangent, right…

SAMIA: Yeah. No, no, but you bring up a really, really important point because actually more than one really important point… You just made me think about, you know, the idea ...You talk about this Allison, I've heard you… The idea that there's no rulebook as such with relationships, but there are principles that we can apply and be consistent in their application to have healthy, happy relationships. And one of the lessons that I've heard you talk about also is what you were just referring to in terms of talking about things when they're still small... Don't wait until something goes up and becomes really big before you deal with it, because then it's so much harder to deal with versus when things are still, you know… Like, if it's a little irritation and you just talk through it, you can do it more quickly. You can do it more easily. Hopefully, you can do it with that lighter energy of if you want to do it with that energy of play, that you also talk about, you know. So tell me more... What are some of these core principles that you would teach us or you can share with us right now?

ALLISON: Yeah. The two that are the most fundamental and probably the simplest to understand… in order to create a successful relationship, it needs two things... it needs intention and attention. Did you?

SAMIA: ..No… balloon flowing?

ALLISON: Yeah. I don't know what the balloons are…

SAMIA: I don't know either…

ALLISON: ..surprise... We're having a party!

SAMIA: Intention... Attention... They were like celebrating…

ALLISON: I'm seeing balloons on my screen. Do you see them too? I didn't want to interrupt our conversation, but…

SAMIA: ..No, you just made such a brilliant point the computer itself was like, "We must celebrate..."

ALLISON: Crazy. That's so bizarre... Sorry for the distraction.Yes. Intention and attention... And so one comes before the other, right. So in all of our relationships… I'm going to frame this with a romantic relationship or marriage, but it applies to all of them. We often just get on autopilot, right. We go about our life and we're not intentional about giving our partner love, attention, nurturing, connection...You know, so then we slowly drift apart because we haven't set aside specific time or activities or ways of being with each other that are intentional. And they can be really small things, like bringing someone a cup of coffee in the morning, right. That's intentional... that's being intentional and thinking, how can I show my partner I love them?

SAMIA: Yeah.

ALLISON: So that's where it gets to be easy. These don't have to be hard, complicated, big things. And so they can range from things like a cup of coffee, a shoulder rub, an intentional hug or kiss, to planning a date. Like, there's a range. But the first thing is to be intentional, because without intention… then you're just wandering, right. Then that's where we're just winging it, as I say... And so then the second part of that is once you're intentional, then you give it attention. And that's actually the action of… how do I give my partner and my relationship attention? I nurture it by bringing them coffee or doing a chore for them when they're overworked or stressed or not feeling well. I give it attention by planning a date night. I give it attention by showing them affection. Like, there's a million ways, but if we don't do either one of those things, then of course the relationship is just going to fall apart. And so those are the two fundamental principles that… without going through the program, if you just take those two things and start to implement them, you will notice a shift right away.

SAMIA: Yes... Wow… Just the idea of intention… that is so important. Oh my gosh... This is something my sister talks about all the time. My sister is also... well, she is a relationship expert in a different kind of context. She does a lot of community-building work in the interfaith environment. And she's always talking about the power of intention and just how critical it is because you're so right... So often we take for granted… we just assume that we are on the same page as to what the intention for our relationship is. Like, oh, marriage just means this thing… or society defines it in a certain way. There's a dominant conception that we have of marriage and what married life is to be like… I'm imagining that once you decide to get married, in some ways you're buying into that idea. And then once you are married, you're just kind of like doing your best to live into it… But to be really intentional and be like, wait, is that idea still like, something that aligns with us? Is there something we need to shift or change about it for ourselves? But also, are we even on the same page in terms of understanding what marriage means to us? Because I don't think that should be taken for granted... I mean, I can think of so many examples in my own family and friends circle where, you know… like, people just had different expectations of what a marriage relationship should look like. And apparently they didn’t… I mean, it became an issue. And until it became an issue, they didn't realize they were not on the same page about it. Like, I was having a chat with one of my cousin sisters and she was like... I definitely… I have a strong feminist streak. My cousin sister, she has a strong feminist streak. So, like, talking about equity in the relationship… and she is married… and she was talking about how creating equity in the relationship, it takes a lot of work and you have to really talk through how you're going to do it, and what it looks like for you as a couple, and what's actually manageable... Because there are things that are just like… she was like, if I want to change this in my relationship then, in terms of her husband is the primary person earning the income and she's staying home and now she has a baby…. And so there's a lot more load on her in terms of taking care of the baby and the home and trying to adjust to this new stage of her relationship. And her husband's still working really hard and so forth, but she's needing extra support because now there's a baby in the picture. And she was like, well, how do I create more equity in our relationship in this context where I get more support with taking care of things at home? But you know, it's like he's also really busy, and you know... And then it's in some ways, like, he doesn't realize everything that I have to do and what a burden it is on me. And so then I have to make him aware and do the work of showing him that this is what I need. And if I say, please do this task, then I also have to show him how to do that task because he doesn't know how to do it. And so then sometimes I'm like, oh, it's just going to be easier for me to just keep doing it because I don't have the energy to teach him how to do, you know... And so she was just talking about all these, like, different things that she has to think through. And yes, she has the ideal of having equity in the relationship, but how to actually make it happen with intention, it's like a process…

ALLISON: It really is. And I absolutely want to acknowledge her for all of that awareness and for you that you listened and were able to see what she was experiencing. So thank you for sharing that. Because it is that… equity is a beautiful word and it looks different for every couple and it will change, right. And so just like she said, it was one thing when before the baby and now it's shifted... And the other thing that I think comes into play with equity is that there used to be an old paradigm of equity and partnership, prior to feminism, prior to women going into the workforce, right. And so I know there's a lot of people that get really angry and frustrated at men for not doing more. But we took on this additional… we're like… we're going into the workforce and we want all these rights. And not that men were necessarily opposed to them, but that was a decision that we made for ourselves. And there's so much more to this issue. So I don't want to go down this big rabbit hole, but the fact… my point is that we do need to teach them. We do need to teach them because most likely they weren't… they didn't have that experience in their home. And that goes back to the passive family experience… and going back to your point of an expectation of what married life will look like. Because he's coming from his expectation. And our role... Where we learn the most about relationships, for the majority of us, is from our parents, is from our home. So whether it's so good or so, so bad, that's our experience of how it should be. And so then we do have to, in this generation and maybe one more, to teach them and have these deeper level conversations about what that looks like… and that's the partnership… that is the… what feels good and aligned… and to help them understand what all of our expectations, obligations… all of the things that fall on us. And this goes for both partners. I mean, I think, we think as moms and women, typically it is more…. Like, we have taken on a lot more in proportion. That being said, it can go both ways... But that's the level of communication that we need to have to help understand… for each other to understand who we are, and to create that joint vision rather than defaulting, right. These are conversations that most couples are not having. They're not having the intentional conversation... They're not having, what is our vision for our marriage? They just go in. We're so in love and it's going to be amazing and we're going to make dinner together and we get to cuddle at night and it's going to be awesome... Not realizing kind of all the things that go into it to create that. And, you know, I think a lot of women also fall into… your cousin had said something that to the effect of it's hard to teach him, like, I just want to do it myself. It would just be easier…

SAMIA: ...yeah.

ALLISON: And sometimes we just need to manage our well-being and if it is sometimes just easier, than to honor that. But in the long run, in the course of our whole relationship, to know that they are capable. Because when we don't bother teaching them, we're also saying to our partner, I don't think you can and you're not worth my time to teach you something. We're also teaching them that we'll just handle it. We train people how to treat us. And that's another important aspect of relationship is to recognize that we train people to treat us well or not so well by the boundaries that we establish. And so there were so many gems in that story that you shared that just I could go on a tangent for each one and be like, ahh…

SAMIA: Yeah, no, you know what? This always happens with us when we're talking. Oh man. Okay, so maybe we can pick one thread and just talk about that for a few more minutes and then we will wrap up.So is there any... yeah...

ALLISON: I think kind of going back to the principles and the philosophies, right, is one of those fundamental things is to create that vision and have those conversations and to come back to that and revisit it. A relationship is not one-and-done. We don't lock it in. And I think people think that they lock-in. I got married... I am locking in everything as exactly as it is today. And to actually recognize that we are always changing… every little situation… I am now a changed woman because I had this conversation with you. We are changed and so we change... our partner changes, our life circumstances change, so of course our relationship is going to change. And to expect that and look forward to that… that you get to revisit your vision, you come back to what your intention is… whether it's the big intention for your relationship or a small intention for how do we want our date night to go? How do we want our Saturday full of chores to go? Do we want to tag team so we get to spend some time together and we're going to run errands and we're going to stop for ice cream, and do that? Or do we want to divide and conquer so that we can get more done, so we can come home and have dinner together and have a really relaxing Saturday night? Those are ways to create intention so that it nurtures your relationship and your life.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah… that's so important. Now you're making me think of one of my other girlfriends who is also married, by and large, happily married. And now she is a mom of three. And I think for her, things changed once she also became a mom in terms of her and her husband had a certain vision for how their life was going to be. And from what I know of their relationship, they were actually doing really well and staying on track with all of that. But once the kids came into their life, things started to change. And especially after the second and the third child came in, a lot shifted for them. And they've had to do a lot of adjusting and rethinking of what do we want our relationship to be like and how to make it function, because… I mean, you know, life happens. They had all kinds of complications crop up where there was financial issues that came up because of which, then they couldn't sustain the same kind of lifestyle, especially with the kids in the picture. And then they ended up having to actually move... And they ended up having to make an international move because it was like, we're having this opportunity and over here things are not working out. And then they were in a completely different country where they had a language barrier to deal with… and all kinds of things just cropped up and they just had to shift with all of that and adapt their visions. So sometimes even just that happens…

ALLISON: It absolutely. And that's… how do you navigate that? How… the level of communication, right… So it seems like they had really strong communication, which is amazing, and that… yeah, life is going to throw us stuff so we can have a powerful vision and it gets to change. Right. It's not like, well, I'm going to hold on to this thing so tightly… but it's also creating an elevated vision of not necessarily, okay, we're going to have three kids by this date and then you're gonna be at this level of your career, and then we're going to go on this vacation... And this, like, that's part of it. Having those goals and having that… there's nothing wrong with that. And there's another level of your vision is… how do we want to feel when we're with each other?

SAMIA: Yes…

ALLISON: How do we want to connect with each other? What do we want our relationship to look like tomorrow, in six months, in a year? Because it's going to look different… right now when they've got three little kids finding alone time… How do they do that? It might be creating a date in the bedroom after the kids gone to bed right. And having some Charcuterie and a glass of wine and a movie… which is different than when the kids are out of the house and they can go to a fancy restaurant or take a weekend away…

SAMIA: Yeah.

ALLISON: But it's talking about what that looks like in each stage and how does each person feel loved and cared about and seen… That’s the intent… that’s the next layer.

SAMIA: Yeah. You know what? The example that you just gave made me think about, like in a very different context... there is a specific vision that we have of this is what I want to do and what I want things to look like… And then there is the feeling level of what we want, you know… and you know… and in my experience with life, you know what I've personally experienced, and I'm sure a lot of us have… that, a lot of times life will not… it’s not fun and easy to align our life and make the very specific aspects of our vision happen. I know this has happened with me in the context of my business. This has happened in the context of my various relationships, the lifestyle that I thought I wanted to lead, etcetera. But even with that being true, I find that, at least with the knowledge and skills that I now have as a Happiness Expert, I'm able to always cultivate the feelings that I want to cultivate and let go of the feelings that I don't want in my life. Regardless of what the very specific circumstances are, I'm able to cultivate the peace and the happiness and the joy that I want. And so that distinction feels like a really important distinction for me to be aware of. Thank you for bringing that out…

ALLISON: Yeah, you're welcome... I think, just to piggyback on that a little bit more, as you were sharing that, the difference is two different ways of distinguishing it. One is that there's the doing of the vision, right. The execution. And then there's who are we being about it. And then the next level of is that a lot of the doing is out of our control... We lose a job, it's out of our control. Somebody gets sick, it's out of our control. There's so many things in life that are out of our control… but how we feel and how we connect is within our control. How we want to feel when we're in our relationship with our partner. Despite all the stuff that might be crumbling over here and not working and not going according to our plan, I can still have this connection with you. And I can still say we still get our private time, and we still get to go on walks, and we still get to cultivate love and support and encouragement and play in our relationship… that is within our control.

SAMIA: Yeah.

ALLISON: So I think that's another way to distinguish what you were noticing, right. Our feelings, our happiness, that's all within our control.

SAMIA: Yes. And actually this frame makes me think… all the examples that I shared earlier with my various girlfriends and cousins… I think that we can, through this frame, understand what's happening in their relationship. And for example, with my cousin who wants more equity in her relationship, sort of like they had a specific vision of this is how we're going to do it. But now she's living through the reality of, well, this is what it's actually panning out to be and still holding on to the intention of creating equity and having equity in the relationship. And at balance, the relationship still feels like, yes, we're in a partnership where we want equity in the relationship. And so they're still good with each other. They're still committed and happy, even as they work out the details of how exactly it's going to look.

ALLISON: Yeah, I love that because I always say the best relationships we hear “happily ever after”, it's not “perfectly ever after”. So you can have happily ever after without perfectly ever after…

SAMIA: That’s such a good point Allison. Oh my, like, oh my gosh, okay, now you made me think of fairy tales... It's like the distinction between charming and good… like you know in Shrek, Prince Charming -- charming, yes, but evil… charming is not equal to good. And so same... I think we also oftentimes conflate happily ever after with perfect. We just think, oh, happily ever after means everything's perfect. But that's not true.

ALLISON: It's not. Again, I could go on this whole tangent too, so I won't. But just the idea that if we have some sort of conflict with our partner… or if we don't… I actually take that back… the couples… like, if you never have conflict with your partner, there's probably something deeper. Not that you should have to be nit-picky and always… but if you're never disagreeing with your partner, if something may have been done and you never speak up about it, there's also some level of a lack of trust or safety that exists. So I think when people tell me, we never fight, I'm like, okay, well, then you're not having deep enough conversations, you're not being vulnerable enough. And it's not that it has to become World War Three and you have to call names and be angry, but you're two humans living together in the same house for years on end, something is going to come up...

SAMIA: Yeah.

ALLISON: And so the couples that know how to nurture, to walk themselves through it, how to navigate, are actually the ones that I think have the stronger relationship.

SAMIA: Yes. Now you just made me think of my own parents… because it's interesting with my parents… my mom is the more traditional one. And my dad, you know, he respects our cultural traditions and stuff, but he's not as, you know, like, must keep things the same…

ALLISON: …tied to them.

SAMIA: …he’s much more open to change and so forth. But my mom, because… she grew up with this ideal of… as a wife, in her concept of the ideal marriage relationship, the wife follows the husband's lead, and my mom takes the idea very seriously. And so she's like, well, if there is a disagreement between us, then I need to comply. And this is not a standard that my dad imposes on her. Actually, it took me a while... Like for… when I was in my teenage years, I used to get mad at my dad. I was like, no, this is oppressive to my mom. But actually, I realized later, as I grew older and I could see better the actual dynamics in their relationship, that it was my mom who kept pulling herself back and enforcing this standard on herself of, no, I have to follow his lead... if there's a disagreement, I have to listen to him. But now they've been married for 47 years or something like that. And theoretically, she still says that is the ideal. But the practical reality of how their relationship is working now has changed. Because now… my mom, she just couldn't hold on to that. And now she will speak up and she disagrees, and sometimes she scolds my dad... And then later she'll be like, oh no, how could I do that? But I personally think that I enjoy their relationship more now the way it is. I love to see my mom scold my dad. Yeah, so theoretically, she's still upset at herself. But the practical reality changed… and there's just a lot more... One thing that changed was also like my relationship with my dad. Because when my mom held on to that standard, it wasn't just for herself. She was also like… all the kids, you have to listen to your dad. Don't argue with him. Always speak... Never raise your voice in front of him. And so that created a certain kind of dynamic for me with my dad that made it really tough for me to relate to him in the kind of way that I would love to relate to him. So as their relational dynamic has shifted, my relational dynamic has shifted. And I'm enjoying myself so much more with my dad, and I think they are enjoying each other more also.

ALLISON: That's a beautiful story. I mean, the power in that… because regardless of where she had this belief, whether that cultural, from her family, wherever she had this belief of how this relationship was supposed to go and what she was supposed to do as a good wife… But then she started to, as the years went on, part of her is like, I can't hold it back anymore... But it's also creating this level of safety and trust that she could disagree with him and he would still love her. She could disagree, he's not going to leave. She could disagree and he's not going to get violent. There's a level of vulnerability and trust… and for you then, as children, to say… they work through it. I don't have to be afraid that if I say something wrong, the person that's supposed to love me the most will leave.

SAMIA: Yeah.

ALLISON: Right. So there's… even for kids… when we think about the importance of our relationship, it's not just for each other, it's the example that you're setting for your children in what a healthy relationship should look like, because that's what you want for your kids. So that was just such a beautiful story. I love it. Thank you... Thank you for sharing so much. That was awesome…

SAMIA: Ah... No, thank you for listening… and you're such a great listener and so easy to talk to you, I always... like, I lose track of time and I know you have to go, so I will hold back my further questions and curiosities that I have in terms of our conversation and we'll probably have to bring you back again so we can keep talking. But any last words for now?

ALLISON: ...just thank you. Thank you for being so warm and curious and supportive. I feel the same way… these conversations fly by. They feel very natural and organic and fun and playful. I didn't have to rehearse. We just let it evolve and it was beautiful. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Samia…

SAMIA: Thank you again Allison. And to all of you who are listening, my last reminder as usual for you is to make sure you check the show notes. Because I will be dropping Allison's links in there so you can connect with her and continue to learn with her and get support whenever you're ready. So until we connect next time, I wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)