Blog: Make Change Fun And Easy

How to Find the Right Business Model for You. With Norbert Orlewicz & Samia Bano

How to Find the Right Business Model for You.

May 24, 202443 min read

How to Find the Right Business Model for You.
With Norbert Orlewicz & Samia Bano

Are you a coach, trainer, or healer struggling to #monetizeyourknowledge and skills?

Is your business hard and complex to manage?

Listen now to this interview with Norbert Orlewicz, #DigitalMarketing Strategist, to learn how you can make your marketing and business more #simple, #funandeasy by focusing on some #businessbasics and choosing the right #BusinessModel for you!

We delve into various #marketingmodels, from #webinars, and #OnlineWorkshops to one-on-one calls, and discuss how to choose the best approach based on your business's current stage and #personalstrength. Learn how to avoid common pitfalls and focus on #BusinessStrategies that truly work for you.

Learn more and connect with Norbert at:

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click:

#digitalmentor #monitizeyourskills #BusinessMadeEasy #BusinessMadeSimple #MarketingMadeEasy #marketingmadesimple #marketingonline #marketingonlinetips #MarketingMagic #BusinessStrategy #ContentCreation #EntrepreneurSuccess #BusinessGrowth #ValueCreation #SmallBusinessTips #AuthenticMarketing #BusinessDevelopment

Here's the audio version of this episode:



Full Video Transcript

SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Dzień dobry! Yay... Welcome, everyone. I'm so, so happy to have you with us. And I know you'll be so happy you're joining us today because we have a wonderful guest, and it's Norbert. And Norbert, I will actually ask you to tell us more about who you are and what you do.

NORBERT: Sure. Absolutely, Samia. It's my pleasure to be here. Really great to be on your show. Love the content that you're producing and just honored to be a part of this. So my name is Norbert Orlewicz. I'm a Polish immigrant to Canada, and I've been in the digital marketing space for about almost 20 years now, which makes me… which is why I've got some of that gray beard going on here. I've been in this industry for quite some time, and most recently we launched a new company called Digital Mentors, where we help people to monetize their knowledge... So we show people how to take their knowledge, their expertise, their skills, their experiences, even, and their passions, and turn it into a digital coaching, a digital mentorship business, basically through coaching or digital courses.

SAMIA: I love it. I love it... You're speaking to the right audience, a lot of our changemakers, our fellow coaches and trainers and healers. And, you know, we love to use the work that we do as our vehicle for change-making. And so whenever we can learn from people like you on how to make that more fun and easy, it's awesome…

NORBERT: Yes. Fun and easy is the name of the game, which is, you know, which is a challenge in business because, let's face it, business can be challenging. But we can definitely make it more complicated than it needs to be. So I love this angle that you have with fun and easy. My angle and my perspective is simplicity and focus. So I think those two work really well together.

SAMIA: Yes. You know, I must say, simplicity… it's like one of my favorite things. It's something that I've really come to appreciate at a how to live life level, you know? And also as a sort of grounding philosophy when we are thinking about how to make change fun and easy. Because, you know, I first came to realize it in the context of my personal growth journey that a lot of times what I was finding to be very difficult and hard in creating personal change, in achieving the happiness that I desired, I realized it was because I had made things way too complicated. Whereas the actual essence of how to be happy, how to live a peaceful life, those are very, very, very simple things. Not always easy if you don't know what you're doing or you don't have the support that you need, etcetera. But the way is simple.

NORBERT: Oh, I love that... That is, I hadn't even thought about it really in that context because my mind has been so much on business. But when you speak that, it brings so much. I just had a conversation with a wonderful client, and she's from Afghanistan, and we had this incredible conversation about her story leaving a war-torn country. And she was talking about how she loves to go on vacation. And when she goes on vacation, she loves to go to Afghanistan. And I was like, wait, you go to Afghanistan for… like, most people choose a beach, a tropical vacation, a five-star hotel, something like that. But she loves going to Afghanistan. And I'm like, why is vacation for you? And she said, well, because in my culture and where I come from, community is such a big part of my life, and I have so much simplicity, and I relax because my kids are taken care of, everything is taken care of. Like, there's so much support in community. And it led to this conversation about how in Western society, we're so detached from community, we're so isolated. We try to do everything on our own, and it just makes things complicated and difficult. So you just brought that to mind as well, right? Because really, when you're looking for spiritual growth, personal growth, and you're looking for happiness and fulfillment, it's about eliminating things and simplifying your life and not necessarily adding to it, right?

SAMIA: Yes. Yes. I mean, I can definitely relate to what your friend was sharing with you. My mom will tell you the same thing. Her true vacation is when she goes to her family back in Pakistan. And one of the reasons for that is, you know, things are taken care of for her there. But more importantly, she feels free to be herself. You know, it's like when you have moved around as much as we have as a family -- I've lived in four different countries. Now I'm living in my fourth country… you know, you do learn to adapt and sort of adjust yourself to whatever the environment you're in. And you learn to love the people that you're around and find things in common with them. But there's something about when you are with other people that are sort of part of your origin story or place of origin… when you connect with them, there's just a different level of comfort and belonging that you feel, and a extra level of… there's just this, like, you just understand certain things about each other, and you don't have to explain yourself in certain ways, and so you’re just more free to be you. And that is such a key part of what allows you to relax when you don't… you know, when you can just be yourself and you can be really authentic. And I do find that also… coming back to the business side of things, like, being authentic in business, just being able to be who you really are, turns out to be a really important key of making your work more fun and easy…

NORBERT: It really... Yeah, it really does, because otherwise, there's always that pressure to be something that you're not, right… to try to fit into a role or try to fit into a mold or... I mean, I had that experience for the longest time in business. I got my start in business, in entrepreneurship, in sales, and more specifically, also in network marketing. And I really struggled because all of my mentors in the sales area were all very much like A type, red type, driver personalities. You know, those guys, right? And they were. They were all men. They were all men. They were all, like, alpha males, you know, and they're just aggressive, and they go for the kill... Like, that's where all this terminology. I know you had Stacey on your show recently, and, we have some great conversations about the male war terminology in sales and marketing. Right? Like, your… your target market. Yeah… we're gonna crush the... We're gonna crush the sales records this week. Like, it's all this war mentality in sales, and that's something she's working hard to change, but that comes into, you know, anybody trying to start a business, it's like you feel like you need to be someone else than what you really are, and that makes things really difficult. And I've been there. Everybody's been there. And I don't know that there's an easy way to get to authenticity. I wonder if it is just time and experience, you know, to kind of find your place and find your path…

SAMIA: That's interesting. I think what might make it challenging to be our authentic self is just, you know, the mindset piece of... There's so much in the dominant cultures that we're part of that makes you afraid to be authentic. And so it's about… like, for me, I got to a point where it just got too hard to not be me, to try to be someone else, to try to fit in a different mold. And I gave up... I gave up on trying to fit in into different molds, trying to change myself. It was just getting too complicated and too hard because especially with all the moving around I've done, every place that I've lived in… I've lived in India and Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates and now here in America…. Every place I've lived in has taught me something, has made a deep impression, and has become a huge part of my… significant part of my personality in different ways. And so there's so much that I am and that I carry, that I never just fit into a neat box, no matter where I am. Not to mention other aspects of my character and personality that also make me stand out. And so it's just too hard to try and… and eventually I just gave up because it was just too hard. So that's how I came to being like, no, you know what? I'm just going to be myself and let's see what happens. I think for other people, they're just dealing with a lot of fear and this myth that, you know, if you want to succeed, then you have to do things the way everyone else has done in terms of the people that you see as successful in society. But I think that is a myth because when you actually talk to the really successful people, a lot of times, you know, they've been the trailblazers. They have done something different, brought some new value to the society, especially in the context of business… they're trying to solve some problem that hasn't been solved already, and they're offering a new, unique perspective or solution. And so you just end up being different and unique. And that is part of what actually helps you stand out also and make you more successful. So I think it's such a myth that, you know, you have to go into some kind of a box to find your success…

NORBERT: Absolutely. And then I guess it also, you know, it also depends what your definition of success is, right... Because… and I think that's probably one of the best places for somebody to start, is to get really clear and honest and authentic with what does success look like for you. Because you might be going down a path, chasing after something that when you get there, you're not actually going to be fulfilled and you're actually not going to be satisfied, right? Like, is it really the money that's going to make you successful? Or is it more the free time that you want to create for yourself? Is it the lifestyle that you want to create for yourself? Is community… like we're talking about community and connection here? Is community really what's important for you? You know, having people around you that you can trust, that you can rely on... Because if community is important, but you're a workaholic, working 60 hours, you know, a week and you never have time for friends and relationships and connections. Then I'd have to question, well, you're not going down the path of success for you because you're not going to get the success that you truly want, which is community and belonging and connection, right. So I think that's a really important step for everyone to start with is what is my definition of success?

SAMIA: Right... And I mean, again, for that you have to tap into your authenticity, know yourself, know your own values, be willing to be different. Because, you know, for a lot of people, the very definition of success, you haven't come up with your own. You just take on what you are taught. And it's like, actually the number one issue that I come across as a happiness expert also is that people are chasing happiness and they're doing it with ideas and understanding that… it's not, like, something that's come up from within. It's not based on what their heart desires, it's based on what they have been told about how to achieve happiness and what makes you happy, you know. So…

NORBERT: Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that, you know, going back to the business conversation, that's something that we really look at with our clients as well. Because in this space, the digital marketing space or the coaching space, there's definitely a lot of gurus and trainers and experts out there that teach their systems, right. This is my system that I used to make one hundred K a month or whatever, right. We've seen all the ads and stuff like that, and that's cool that you have a system and that it's worked for you. But one of the challenges that I found in working with entrepreneurs for 15 years now in this space is that just because a system worked for somebody doesn't mean that you should follow it. Because if it's not in alignment with your personality, with your gifts, with your talents, with your strengths, you're going to struggle and you're going to have challenge. And I discovered that early on when I was trying to follow these sales guys and I was trying to do what they told me to do to make sales and it didn't work for me. I struggled for six years trying to build a six figure income in sales. And I had a couple of good years here or there, but it wasn't until I got into marketing and I started to learn about positioning yourself online and branding online and creating content online and focusing more on building the connection and building the trust and building the relationship before I got into a sales call, right… When I focused on that, then all of a sudden I had success, and it was almost instantaneous… as soon as I made the shift and I focused on the things that I was actually good at...

SAMIA: Yeah. So one of the... This is reminding me… when you work with your people, some of the strategies or ways in which you teach people to make connection and sort of engage in marketing… like, focusing on live events, virtual workshops, challenges, things like that... And you talk about, you know, figuring out which is the best model for you, like, whoever is listening, to use. So sounds like that's part of what you're referring to here… maybe finding the right strategy for you. Finding the right model for you…

NORBERT: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely... You know, there's some strategies that are more heavily focused on the sales and the conversions, right. So, you know, you can have a very simple strategy… If you're strong in sales, if you're strong in communication, then you probably don't need to build very complex funnels. You don't need to have complicated automations, especially when you're starting out, right. Just get into conversations. I always like to ask the question, what is the simplest, quickest, easiest, most efficient way to accomplish my goal? So when you're putting together your business processes, think very simply… why am I doing this? What do I want to get out of this? What's the purpose of doing this? So if your purpose is to get on a zoom, like a one-on-one call, so you can sell a coaching client, then ask yourself, what is the simplest, quickest, easiest, cheapest way, method, to get a booked call? Okay. And it's probably not a complicated webinar funnel. And we know webinars… We know webinars are the secret to life because some guru said webinars. I made a million dollars with webinars, so now I need to have a webinar... No, you don't need to have a webinar because it's actually quite a complicated process, and you could probably accomplish the same goal quicker, easier, faster, cheaper, if you just focused on getting on that Zoom call, getting and booking that call, right. You might not even need that webinar. So we have to be careful with some of these things that we, you know, that we learn online YouTube videos that we watch or TikTok videos that we watch, and somebody's saying, this is what you have to do. You really have to, you got to look at it through the filter of, is this right for me? Is this right for me based on my personality and my strengths? And is this right for me based on my current business right now?

SAMIA: Aha, yes…

NORBERT: Those are two very important questions to consider.

SAMIA: Yes. Tell me more. Tell me more, because this is a really critical insight. So we talked a little bit about the personality side,...making sure it's aligning your personality. And I love the example that you gave of how you yourself shifted from that sales focus to the marketing focus in the ways that you did. But when it comes to what your business is like right now, can you give me an example of how do you take a strategy, like, let's say, webinars, and look at where you are in your business? And when would it be a good match versus when it wouldn't?

NORBERT: Okay. We can get a little bit into the weeds here. And the first thing that I would talk about is understanding the number… So in one of our... I don't have it on me right now… we're not going to share screen or anything like that… But in a workshop that we do, I've got a chart that basically outlines the three different ways that you can convert a lead into a sale. So there's really only three ways. And I call this your conversion mechanism. Okay? So you can do it virtually through a sales video or a sales page, okay... And that's the dream for every Internet marketer, right? You put up a sales video or a sales page, you drive traffic and people just send you money, right. They just buy and you're not involved in it at all. That's the dream, okay... The second way is one to many. So that's going to be your webinars, your live streams, your virtual events, maybe even challenges, anything like that. One to many, okay? And it's typically would be like a webinar. And then you have one-to-one. And one to one is going to be a personal zoom call like this, maybe a phone call, maybe even just a DM conversation. Okay, so those are the three different ways that you can convert a lead into an actual sale. And those are the only three ways. Now, you have to understand the numbers, the metrics... Okay, so sales video, sales page, will convert at about one to 10%, max. One to 10%. So now you got to think about, okay, well, how many leads do I need to generate to get one sale? Okay, also on a sales video, you're typically only going to sell something that's priced between a dollar to $2,000 max. Maximum $2,000... I mean, I would even say $1,000 is very difficult to just sell with just a sales video or a sales page if you're trying to sell a coaching program. Okay... Typically you would want to sell that on a webinar or on a one-on-one call. Okay. So the next thing you look at is the webinars. Typical webinar conversion rate is 10 to 30%. So it's better than your sales page, but it's not as good as a one-on-one call. A one-on-one call, you can convert 30% to 70% if you get really good at it. Okay... So when you think about it, if you're still struggling for traffic and leads and you don't have a big audience. Which one of those strategies should you be focusing on in order to get the most sales?

SAMIA: The one on one calls...

NORBERT: Probably the one on one, because, and this is counterintuitive to everything that you'll hear… automation, at that stage in your business, automation will actually make you lose money.

SAMIA: Yes. Yes.

NORBERT: So this is where we have to start thinking a little bit differently, especially when we're starting a business. Because we look at these very successful gurus and trainers who are already making seven figures and they're teaching strategies that work for them now…


NORBERT: And they're not necessarily the best strategies for a new person to start with right away.

SAMIA: Yes... Thank you for that example, because actually that has been my experience as well. And I think of it as, you know, like the stages of growth thing, that at the person, when you first start your practice, your business, whatever you're going through various stages of growth… and order matters. I think this was one of the most important lessons that I learned from one of my mentors is that, you know, there are different things you're going to want to do over the life of your business, but the order in which you do things matters because there are certain things that, you know, at the very starting stage, if you invest a lot in automation and technology -- it is just too soon, it's not the right time.

NORBERT: Yeah, absolutely. I love that you said that order matters... That is so true in business. And this is where coaches and mentors, I think, are really valuable because as a, you know, if you don't have a lot of experience, especially in digital marketing or in starting or running a business, you're going to flounder around. And I mean, yes, you can get information from YouTube and TikTok, sure. But information is pretty useless if you don't have the guidance of, like you said, what order to do it in, right. Or how much focus to put into something… or just what I just shared here, understanding the basic conversion numbers of those three strategies… most people are like, oh, yeah, Russell Brunson told me I need a funnel, so let me build a sales page. But they haven't even considered how many leads they're going to now need to send to that sales page to make that sale.

SAMIA: That's right, that's right, that's right... That's the number one trouble that myself and so many other coaches, trainers, healers, when we were in our struggling stages, we ran into is that, you know, it was like... So for example, one of the things that I kept hearing… this was back in, like, 2012 when I was starting out. And, you know, social media at that time was getting big and all of that, and it was, like, okay, you have to create content, lots of content, new content all the time... Because if you're not generating lots of content, then how are you going to keep your audience engaged? And like, for me, I'll be honest, I'm great at creating content. I have so many things to share, ideas.... You know, I love creating lesson plans. I'll create entire courses, you know… like, that's part of my strengths and, you know, my skill set. I'm great at not just learning things myself, but also teaching people and figuring out how to, you know, teach people in terms of creating bite-size lessons, etc, etcetera... So I love creating content. And I was like, okay, creating lots and lots of content… but where are the eyeballs watching that content? Where are the ears listening to that content? Where are the butts in the seats, you know, for when I want to do a webinar or a workshop -- it's like crickets, you know. For a long time, like, that was the big challenge. And then I realized, oh, I mean, here is a clear imbalance, you know, and so it's... And it wasn't just me. There were so many other of my friends who were, you know, in a similar position where we spent so much time worrying about content, creating content. But no, no audience or very small audience. And so with the very small audience, you just cannot achieve those kinds of results that, you know, we were being shown the dreams of in terms of, okay, you produce all this content and then, you know, you'll just get all these sales and things. There were just not enough eyeballs.

NORBERT: Yeah. And there's got to be a strategy to the content. I think that's the key… because I've seen that a lot, too… you know, people being told to just create content, create content, create content. And you’re creating content, but it's not going well… You got to ask yourself, what is what? Why am I… Again, going back to purpose... Everything you do in your business, you need to be clear on the purpose. You need to be clear on why are you doing this thing in your business… if you're just doing it because somebody told you you need content… Okay, I'll make content… No… But why, why are you creating this piece of content? Is it to gain new followers? Is it to get a lead? Or is it to enroll a new client? Because there's different types of content that you would create to accomplish each of those different purposes.


NORBERT: So again, that's understanding a very basic and very fundamental marketing concept, which is understanding the customer journey, right. So if you're trying to grow your business and you're trying to do marketing, but you don't understand what the customer journey is, that's a marketing 101 lesson. That's a basic lesson that you should learn. There's three stages for the customer. There's actually five, but let's just focus on the first three, which is awareness, consideration, and acquisition. Right. And, you know, this, this is three different parts of the conversation. And when you think about the conversation that you're having in the awareness stage is very different than the conversation you're having in the consideration phase, and it's very different than the conversation you're having in the acquisition phase. So when you're creating content, you've got to be clear, which of these phases am I creating content for? Is it to create awareness and attention about my business and who I am and what I do? Or is it to answer questions for somebody that's considering doing business with me, but they need to do more research, and they need to get to know me and like me and trust me. Or is this content to actually make the sale? Right. So again, coming back to purpose, why am I doing the things that I'm doing in my business?

SAMIA: Yes. And to recognize that you need all these different kinds of content, because I think also what happens is that when you are not aware, you’re still, like, new, you're trying to learn all this you like. I know I was creating a lot of content that was helping to create awareness of me, awareness of my brand, but it wasn't taking people to the next step and the next step, you know? And so, yeah, so the kind of content you create and to know that you need to create all these different kinds of content. And so then to lead people from one kind of content to the next kind of content, also… because if everyone's just… if you're not leading them like any individual person needs to be led so they're not always stuck on the same stage of the kind of, in terms of the kind of content you're... they're being exposed to by you. Yeah…

NORBERT: That's probably one of the most important things that somebody could take away from this conversation. And one of the most important things that, you know… if you're kind of struggling in your business right now, you're not getting the results that you want, I would encourage you to sit down and think about your customer journey. And think about what Samia just said. How do you want to lead them through your customer's journey? Because you've got to be clear on that. If you don't know how am I leading them, then they're going to get lost. And you're not going to move them to the next stage, which is probably generating a lead, or the next stage, which is maybe attending your workshop, or the next stage, which is maybe making that first purchase, right. Or downloading your lead magnet… whatever it is. So you've got to be clear on that journey, and you've got to be consistently working to move, like you said, move people through that journey. Yeah…

SAMIA: Yes. And to realize that… and this is where working with experts like you comes in real handy, makes things more fun and easy… is that a lot of this moving people and making sure you have all the different kinds of content set up, etcetera… a lot of this… Like, I mean, when you're first starting out, you may have to think about it a bit and put some conscious focus and attention… but after a while, it becomes like second nature and, you know, it just gets built in. There's just simple little things that you will learn to do and, you know… it just becomes part of like this, sort of like a system that you're working through and it just naturally happens so you don't have to be worrying about, oh, is it happening or not? You know…

NORBERT: It's like anything in life and in business… it's just a new skill that you have to develop. It's just a new skill that you have to learn. And if you approach your business in that way, you know the way you would if you were to go to university, right? Like, you're just learning new lessons and you're learning new skills and you know it's going to take you several years to do it… as long as you're committed to improving your skill sets, learning new skills, I think you're going to do fine. Because just like you said, eventually, it becomes more natural. I don't even think about copywriting anymore. I just… because I know the principles, and it's a part of me. I've been doing it for over 15 years, right. You just naturally write copy and you write emails knowing those principles that you learned many years ago. You're just applying it every single day in your life. Yeah.

SAMIA: Yes. Yes... And going back to, you know, again using that authentic voice… you'll, like, figure out as you go through the process, you'll figure out how to make all of this your own and do it in your own authentic voice. You just made me think about one of my favorite teachers and mentors, actually one of my spiritual mentors that I was introduced to... Because the thing with this particular person is I didn't even realize how brilliant he was at marketing… because he never… because he's just always so gentle, so calm… So, you know… just doesn't even seem to do any kind of, like, pushy sales thing at all. But it's just the way that… they're just things…. Like, you attend one of his workshops, and there's… now knowing what I know, the education that I've had in terms of effective marketing and sales, I can see that he has incorporated all of those elements in the way, for example, that his workshop is structured and the different things that he does… but it just, it doesn't feel salesy at all. Like, you don't even think about it… just at the end of the workshop, you're just motivated and excited to try out the next thing that he has to teach you, you know... And it's just all so gentle and so easy and… You know, like, for me, that was… when I recognized what he was doing and how it was impacting me, it was like a game changer, because, I mean, I was like, oh, I can do this. I can do this. You know, like, in him, I saw a model that I could follow because just like you were saying, Norbert, before that, like, the models that I had in front of me, had a very different energy, very different style of doing things. And actually, most of the mentors that I was thinking… at that time, that I was consciously trying to follow, were people in the business world. And… because I was like, I'm going to try and build my business. And so I was trying to follow them and follow their way of doing things. And I was struggling with that from an… you know, like, my energy wasn't matching... Like, I remember very clearly I had signed up with a mentor who was teaching me how to create an online webinar for me. And so he actually sat with me and he helped me create a presentation, and then he had me do… give him the presentation. And then he was giving me feedback about how to improve my presentation. And one of the challenges that I ran into was, like, this person is very high energy, and part of his philosophy is that, you know, you have to sort of maintain very high energy and, you know, create some drama even in the way that you present yourself. You have to be dramatic. So he was like, no, this is not… like, in part of the webinar... you know, we share our story of, you know, how… our success story. But before you get to the success part, you have to share some of what challenges and all that you have gone through… and you... I shared some of my challenges. No, this is not, it's not dramatic enough. It's not dramatic enough…

NORBERT: I got to feel the pain.

SAMIA: Yes. Gotta feel the pain. You have to go into your deepest, darkest pit… and actually in that…

NORBERT: Are you trying out for Hollywood? Was that a Hollywood movie or something you're trying out for?

SAMIA: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. You know, actually, because of his pushing, I actually went to my deepest, darkest memory that I could think of. Turns out it was a moment when I was feeling literally suicidal. And when that came up, I literally burst into tears, and I couldn't even… like, I didn't even realize that it was something that was still needing healing, and I couldn't, I couldn't handle it, you know? And so, but it was like, I was like, okay, cut that out. Cut that out. Cannot talk about that…

NORBERT: Was that fun and easy?

SAMIA: It was not fun and easy…

NORBERT: Because, Samia, you know, we're hanging out here. This is the first time I've met you, but I've listened to some of your podcasts as well. And, you know, you have a very, like, light, peaceful, easygoing, just calm way about you. And why can't that be appealing? Because I'm really enjoying this podcast interview because I get to be relaxed. I'm pretty good usually at matching energy. So if I have a podcast guest and they're all like… we got to have new sales… I can match the energy, and I can be up there, too, and we can have a great show. But I'm really enjoying because my natural state is much more relaxed and calm and easygoing. And so I'm really enjoying this conversation with you because you bring that energy and you just make it feel comfortable and easy. And so for me, that just seems like, you know, the clients that you would attract are going to be clients that resonate with that energy, which would be a great fit.


NORBERT: Right... Like, why would you want to attract clients who are all drama?

SAMIA: Exactly. Exactly. You know, and so it's like we go back to these basics. And the idea of, like, keep things simple and authentic to you. Yeah.


SAMIA: You have to go through a process to find the right, the right teachers for you and to find the right strategies for you. So I've gone through... I've gone through my share.

NORBERT: Yeah. And you know what? Maybe, maybe we have to, like, that's part of the journey. I always say to my clients, I say, look, you're going to pay for your education one way or another, okay? I never went to university. I never went to college. Actually, I'm a theater school dropout. So I went to college for a year and a half and I dropped out. Okay. But I don't have any marketing degrees. I don't have any business degrees, no certifications or anything like that. But I paid for my education. I paid for my education with years of trial and error, years of buying courses and webinars and coaching and things like that. And eventually, I was able to build success. But you're going to pay for your education one way or another. You might as well invest in mentors and in education so that you can find your path. And I love what you said about finding a model. When you finally saw that spiritual leader of yours and you were able to see in him a model that you felt you could replicate… that is one of the best gifts that any entrepreneur can get because it shows you the path. And that's one of the questions that I always ask my clients. In our first session, I ask them, who do you want to model? Do you have a role model in business that you want to at least model? I'm not saying copy them, like, you want to build a business just like them, but somebody that you look up to and you're like, you know what? I want a business like that, or I want to that person. Because then it gives you a path. It gives you some direction instead of being like, which way do I go? Right? I think it's so important to have that.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. And to just remember that wherever you're… like, in my case, this mentor that I love and that I’m aspiring to… at this point in his work and life, he has a multinational organization. Like, he has, like… I don't even know if they're, like, offices. It's like, so interesting the way his setup is… but he has in Europe, so in Germany, for example, in Australia… he has a very strong following in Indonesia, Philippines, all across the US, Canada... And so at this point, he's like international.

NORBERT: I'm really curious…

SAMIA: Well, the organization is called Natural Way of Living. And our teacher, his name is Irmansyah Effendi. He's like the head, head. But, you know, that's not how I initially… I didn't even know Irmansyah Effendi until, like, I was already into the organization and doing workshops with them, with other teachers that he has trained. Like, I met someone locally. I'm in Los Angeles. And it was just through meetup, you know, the website. I don't know how many people are still familiar with meetup, but basically it was like meet up. It was like a meditation group. And it's called Open Heart meditation. It's one of my favorite forms of meditation. And so at that time, it was completely new to me. And I literally showed up in someone's living room, and there were just a few people there, and they just had us, you know, practice the meditation. And then we had a little bit of a debrief. And one of the very interesting parts of the experience was there were people who were, like, alumni from the programs, you know... And so they'd been doing the practice for many years. They were just coming to hang out and continue to be a part of the community, and everyone was just sharing… okay, what was it like for me today, if you're new. And some of the alumni shared their experiences in terms of how they've experienced the practice over the years. And they didn't talk about sales or anything. There were just some flyers on the side for upcoming workshops if you wanted to go more in-depth. But they never put any kind of pressure on you. And they're like, just come back for these free meetup sessions for as long as you want. And they're just, like, there. And, you know, I went there, and, you know, that's how I got sucked in. Like, I was like, oh, I love this form of meditation. What a great community. And there are all these alumni that, you know, they keep coming back and sharing these great experiences that they're having. And, you know, just so… just at some point, I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I want to go deeper. I want to see, like, what they teach at the deeper workshops, you know. And they were so low priced… even when you signed up for the very first level of workshops, they were so reasonably priced. And, you know, even as we went higher up… I mean, there's such a deep funnel, if I might use that word.


SAMIA: You would never hear anyone in their space use that word. But if I use it, it's such a deep funnel. But it's, like, so interesting… It's, like, never... I mean, they always keep the… it's like they're... And this was, like, something that I didn't realize until later... But one of the reasons why they're able to keep their prices so low, one, it's a values thing for them. But the other thing is that they have the numbers. You know, they're, like, reaching so many people, literally, you know, that they are able to... And the way that they manage the organization… like I said, the meetup was literally happening in someone's living room. You know, even the workshops that we did…

NORBERT: Simple.

SAMIA: Yeah, the paid ones also, they weren't, like, doing it in fancy hotels and things. They were just community halls or, you know, organizations that they had connections with. As I got more involved in the organization, I heard some conversations about, you know, they're just checking in with their alumni about who has access to some community room or space where they could do workshops. You know, ideally… a lot of times, people just donate the space so they do what they can to keep their costs low, so then they can, you know, they're not under pressure to charge their clients. So there's this aspect of their business model where they're doing all these things to keep costs low, so then they can also keep their prices low. I mean, so there's a lot of, you know, amazing, strategic things going on in the background that is making it possible for them to do what they do, you know. And even in context of, like, sales, marketing, you know, just like, having all those alumni there sharing their experiences... Wow, that's, like, such amazing… Like, you… any business would die for those kinds of, you know, like, testimonials and that kind of free publicity.

NORBERT: Yeah. The social proof. Yeah. I mean, as you, as you describe that business, you know, I'm just picking apart all the little marketing concepts there. Like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, there's the free value... There's that. There's that…

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah.

NORBERT: All these things that we understand. But what I would be very curious about, if I had a chance to interview him, I would want to know, how did you start out right? What did it look like at the beginning? How did you get your first few clients? Because I'm sure it wasn't as complex as it is today. And so that goes back to what I said earlier. It's like, you have to be careful. You look at a business like that, you say, wow, yeah, they do all this stuff. They give away so much free value. I'm going to do exactly what he's doing. It's like, whoa…

SAMIA: ….not yet. Not yet…

NORBERT: Maybe not yet. Because I'd be curious to know, how did he start? That would be an interesting lesson.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's exactly why I said that's what I'm aspiring to now myself. Because I realized, that I'm not there yet in terms of, like, I cannot afford to keep my prices that low, to be honest, because I cannot break even. Like, if I was to charge what he charges now, like, he does that, he'll do, like, two-day workshops, like, full days, and very, very rich, very, very deep content, like, life-changing experiences… couple of hundred bucks... There's no way I can even begin to cover my costs…

NORBERT: ...without the volume.

SAMIA: Without the volume, you know…

NORBERT: ..without the volume.

SAMIA: And so... Yeah, and it… And the networking… and it's like, even how they're drawing people into their workshops… now so much of their marketing is just word of mouth. You know, the alumni, like, I am one of their biggest fans, and I'm telling everyone I know about their workshops, and when I find out about another workshop that they're doing, I will... And I don't do it for any kind of money. There's like no… but just because I found their work so life-changing for me. And I, like, you know, I don't need to reinvent wheels and learn how to teach some version of this myself. I actually send my clients… Like, I teach what I teach, but, you know, I'm like, you also need to learn this, and go to my teacher to learn it because he's already doing such a brilliant job at teaching it, you know. And so it's people like me, and you know that we are just literally doing free marketing.

NORBERT: Yeah. I mean, if you... And this is the thing. If you provide really good service, really good product, if you actually are an expert in what you do and you provide the good value, you know, the idea would be that people would talk about it.


NORBERT: The idea would be that you would get referrals from it. So as long as we focus on delivering the best that we can deliver, that should take care of itself, yeah.

SAMIA: Yeah. Cool, cool, cool. So, Norbert, I’m keeping an eye on the time for us.

NORBERT: Yeah, we could talk for another hour, I'm sure.

SAMIA: Yes, I know. Exactly. But let's wrap up for today. Do you have any last thoughts or words that you'd like to share?

NORBERT: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I would... The advice I've given so far would be simplify your business. One of the things I do with almost every single one of my clients is I get them to stop doing some things. The first thing that we do is like, okay, what can we stop doing so we can focus our energy on what actually matters in your business? Because that's nine out of ten, 90% of business owners, we're doing things in our business that we probably shouldn't be doing right now, or we don't need to be doing, or we're giving too much time and energy and focus on those things. So I would look at what can you stop doing? What can you stop devoting so much time and energy to, and where should you actually refocus your, your time and energy? And so for anybody that's looking to, you know, that's got knowledge or expertise and they want to monetize it, they want to grow their coaching business or grow course creation business, we do a live workshop that right now is complimentary. And we also have a compass tool, which is actually interesting… We didn't talk about the AI aspect... Maybe that could be another conversation of ours. We use an AI tool. We developed it ourselves. It's called the digital mentors compass. And it's a great tool to go through. If you have some ideas about your business… and there's about 13 different questions… if you answer the questions and you actually take some time and energy to answer those questions, you're going to get a really awesome report at the other side of it. The AI looks at all of your answers and then it summarizes it all and puts it into a report and gives you some suggestions about the types of offers you could create, the types of social media content that you could post to and the types of audiences that you would focus on. It's a really cool tool for somebody to gain clarity on their digital mentorship business.

SAMIA: I'd love to have you come back, talk more about that because, wow, AI is just blowing up. And it's just part of the nature of AI because it's growing faster than any other technology that we know. And it's being integrated into all our existing technologies at a faster rate than anything else that we have seen before. And it's just part of the nature of AI for that to be happening. And with that, you know, I mean, there's this feeling of excitement, but also pressure to not get left behind. And so like this wanting to jump in, but at the same time, you know, it's like there are some challenges, some downsides. You want to make sure you're using it in a smart way for you. So I would love to talk about all of that with you. And, oh, yes, I'm excited. Okay.

NORBERT: Yeah, yeah.

SAMIA: So for now, I will just give my last reminder to our audience and remind you to please make sure you check the show notes, because we will be dropping Norbert's links in there so you can connect with him and continue to learn with him. And until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace.

NORBERT: Thank you, Samia.

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Samia Bano, Happiness Expert

Samia Bano is the #HappinessExpert, author, speaker, podcaster & coach for coaches and healers. Samia is most known for her book, 'Make Change Fun and Easy' and her #podcast of the same name. With the help of her signature Follow Your Heart Process™, a unique combination of #PositivePsychology and the spiritual wisdom of our most effective #ChangeMakers, Samia helps you overcome #LimitingBeliefs, your chains of fear, to develop a #PositiveMindset and create the impact and income you desire with fun and ease… Samia’s advanced signature programs include the Happiness 101 Class and the Transformative Action Training. Samia is also a Certified #ReikiHealer and Crisis Counselor working to promote #MentalHealthAwareness. Samia models #HeartCenteredLeadership and business that is both #SociallyResponsible and #EnvironmentallyFriendly. Samia is a practicing #Muslim with an inter-spiritual approach. As someone who has a love and appreciation for diversity, she is a #BridgeBuilder between people of different faiths and cultures. Although Samia currently lives in California, USA, she has lived in 3 other countries and speaks Hindi, Urdu, and English fluently.

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