Parenting, Control & Letting Go: A Lesson In Trust.

Parenting, Control & Letting Go: A Lesson In Trust.
Femke Mortimore & Samia Bano

Frustrated by the #PowerStruggle in your relationships?

Control issues blocking growth in your kids and yourself?

What if #parenting wasn’t about control, but about trust?

Listen now to this interview with Femke Mortimore, #TransformationalCoach Trainer, to explore how #powerstruggles in parenting mirror our own inner conflicts. This conversation challenges common approaches to #raisingchildren and reveals how you can #BreakTheCycle of control, shifting the focus to empowerment and choice.

Learn about how #freeschooling has transformed Femke's relationship with her son. Discover how listening, respect, and dialogue shape #TrueLearning.

Learn more and connect with Femke now at: https://throwittotheu.com/

And check out her FREE Master Class at: https://throwittotheu.com/feel-free-finally/

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

#ConsciousParenting #ParentingWisdom #SubconsciousMind #NeuroscienceAndSpirituality #InnerWork #LettingGo #NervousSystemRegulation #SpiritualHealing #TraumaRecovery #LetGoAndTrust #InspiredAction #SpiritualSurrender #InnerFreedom #HealingJourney #EmpoweredMindset #FreedomCatalyst #EmotionalFreedom #UnlearnAndRelearn #MindsetMatters #ChooseYourResponse #InnerPower #MindsetShift #SpiritualGrowth

Here's the audio version of this episode:

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FULL VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Dzień Dobry! It's really, really good to be with you again. And I know you'll be so happy you've joined us again because we have a very, very cool and amazing turning guest with us today, and that is Femke Mortimore, who is a Transformational Coach Trainer. Welcome back, Femke... 

FEMKE: Thank you. So exciting…

SAMIA: Yes, I'm so happy to have you back with us. And Femke, before we delve into our topic of conversation for today, can you please tell our audience a little bit about who you are and what you do just for those who may have missed our first episode with you.

FEMKE: Absolutely. Yes. So I see myself as a coach mentor. That's been my, I guess, adopted identity for many years now. I help coaches get deeply transformational results for their clients. And then I also see myself as a Freedom Catalyst. And I work with people in one-on-one and group setting to experience inner freedom after they've been chasing freedom out there, like money freedom, time freedom for a very long time. And they find out that that actually doesn't work so well. So I help them really feel free on the inside.

SAMIA: Yeah, I love that. I love that. You know, last time when we connected, one of the reasons… or the context in which we were talking about what you do is the idea of healing and, you know, how, you know, when, when we think about true freedom, really, I mean, it really, so much of that has to do with healing ourselves in a lot of different ways. And you gave us some amazing insights into what it really takes for us to be able to heal.

FEMKE: Yeah. And in a way, what it is is that we're not actually wanting to heal. We want to transcend.

SAMIA: Yes.

FEMKE: And that there's like a very important difference because so many people stay in healing mode.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: And they go, let me try EMDR. Let me try EFT. Let me try regression therapy. And so in a way, they end up gathering more story for why they are stuck rather than transcending. Because when we transcend the identity that beliefs in all of the limiting beliefs. Then we can get back to our essence. And when we get there and we find our connection with all that is, I call that the unknown, right. Allah, God, the universe, whatever someone's word is for that. But when we get to that place where we are one with everything, there is no healing needed. and of course, that sounds really lofty, I guess, but, you know, like, it's a we need to feel that deeply in our body, and that's where the challenge lies.

SAMIA: Yes. Yes. And so when we think about that idea of transcending, you know, a lot of power and control issues come up both in the context of how we feel about ourselves. And I think that is a lot of what we were talking about last time. But then towards the end of our conversation, and of course, we had to run out of time because it's all this is like, I tell you, but in some ways it's great because we get to bring you back to continue the conversation. And I'm so happy about that. So not only do we struggle with power and control issues in our own relationship with ourselves, but we can also struggle in our power and control tendencies in our relationships with others. And we had just started talking about that. And I'm so looking forward to diving deeper into it with you. And so if I remember correctly, where we were kind of leaving things off last time was you had actually given an example in your own life of how you free school your son. And your son is still fairly young, like, I think eight years old or so... Yeah. And I'd never actually heard of free schooling. I mean, I heard of homeschooling, but never been introduced to the idea of free schooling. Would you just tell us again a little bit about what free schooling is?

FEMKE: Yeah, absolutely. So we used to use the word unschooling because that's what it generally refer to. I don't like that term because it's so like as if it's against something. But free schooling essentially is that we trust the innate process of learning, like kids learn, like they, it's just something that is so natural to them. That in their day-to-day life, if they're just living, they're learning. They can't not learn. So that also means that we give him a lot more freedom to listen to his own intuition, that we treat him with the same level of respect and care that we would want ourselves, right. And yeah, so we don't, he gets to choose his own bedtime, and we have conversations about that. It's not like he gets, we just let him, you know, to do whatever he wants. We actually have conversations. What does that feel like in your body when you maybe go to bed too late and you have something in the morning. What does that feel like? And is that something that you want? And so he has food freedom, he has freedom to go to bed. So he usually goes to bed a little later than I do, but he loves chatting in bed at night. So we end up doing that. He if he wants to start something and then stop it, he can. So we really listen to him. And that's not always easy because it requires so much trust. It really does. And also overcoming your own. I guess, control issues around, you know, like, for example, for me, one of the hardest things is like, his relationship dynamics with his friends and wanting to, and I think I mentioned that during the last call, like wanting to control that, right. If there's conflict, wanting to talk it through to the point where he actually at one point said, mom, why do we always have to talk about everything? And that was like a good reflection to step back and say, okay, I'm trying to control this. Let him figure it out.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: Asking for permission if you wanna, you know, if you have, like, can I give you advice? Because we know that unsolicited advice, there's research done that that actually activates the pain center in our brain. So, but yet we expect that kids should just listen when we give them advice. So. Yeah.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much again for sharing that with us. And, you know, the thing. Wow. That brought up so much for me, and it was immediately making me think about the kids in my life that, you know, I get to be a part of their life, and I see, like, I'm not I should let everyone know that. But I have nieces and nephews, and I have also spent time in some other contexts where, you know, I'm the adult in charge and there's, you know kids. There's kids that I get to help take care of. And, you know, when you were talking, it really made me think about one conversation in particular with one of my favorite kids in the world. And she's one of my nieces, and she's, I think, not even 12 yet. She's going to be turning 12 this year. And, you know, we were having a conversation. And you know, she was expressing that life feels really hard to her. And so we talked a little bit about some of the things that are going on for her that she finds so hard. And at some point, you know, being a happiness expert, like what I teach my people.

FEMKE: Yeah.

SAMIA: Is, you know, you if you want to take control of your happiness, the first pillar of how to take control of your happiness is actually having an empowered mindset, which means, you know, believing, yes, I can do this. Yes, I can do that. But also in the context of being happy, it's about knowing that you can choose. You can choose to be happy, and you can choose how you respond and react to people and to situations. And in that context, it's important to realize you can choose your actions, you know. And so I wanted to tell her that, that you can choose how you act in a situation, any situation, and empower her in that way. But I, as soon as I started to like, want to tell her that, like I thought to tell her that, the next thought that came into my mind was, wait, if I tell her she can choose what she wants to do, how's that going to fly with her parents, with her teachers, and God knows how many other adults in her life, who have a very strong perspective that she has to do what they tell her to do, right. You know, and so then I had to stop myself and try to think of something else that I can say to her or say to her, you can choose, but sort of modify that or qualify that or... And, well, it got a little bit tricky for me, but it really made me think, and what you were sharing, Femke, it really made me think about how much we control our kids. I think that's totally fine. And in some ways, like you mentioned, a lot of that has to do with us needing to work on our own trust issues. But also I think it just feels easier to be able to tell a kid, you do what I tell you to do.

FEMKE: Yeah. It's faster, right? Because you're going to put your shoes on now and we're going into the car right now.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: As in, hey, I don't want to. And working with that, it requires a lot of presence and attention. And it's interesting because we just came back from a trip. We went to Berlin Ichthyosaur Park here in Nevada, which it has a lot of fossils. It used to be an ocean, I guess many million years ago. And so we spent three days there and we're sitting at the table and my husband uses the word hurrying. And I don't know in what context, but my kid asked me, "Mom, what does that mean, hurrying?" And it struck me that he, I was like, that's such a basic word, right? He, and he's not familiar with it. And in a way, I was, like, so proud because I was like, yeah, of course. Because I never tell him to hurry up, right. He sometimes tells me we have to get going because he likes to be early and I like to be on time, so we have different preferences there. But I think that is so much of what we're doing with our kids is they have to be in school on time, and then they have to go, you know, to extracurricular activity, and their time is constantly planned for them.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: Rather than them feeling into their own body of what feels good. And you know, I remember when he, because we did put him in school in the beginning. He was maybe four years old, and we had him in a Montessori school, and he would come home from school and he would be like, "Mom, I can't control my body", you know, because he had to sit still and be quiet. And he had this friend, like there was like this soul connection. And if they would look at each other across the room, they would like fall on the floor. And they're four years old, you know? So I would always tell him, this was like so frustrating for me. I would always tell him, you're not supposed to be able to control your body, right. You're supposed to be able to freely express yourself. And so I don't think schools are made for especially boys. The sitting still, the being quiet. Boys are supposed to be outside and play with sticks and roughhouse and that's how they learn too. That's how they learn how to do conflict. So, yeah, it's, I think, easier to control them, you know, put them into the system of a make. Yeah. So also what you were saying about your niece, one of the biggest influences or that or things that influenced me in my kind of philosophy is Victor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning. And he talks about how we can always choose our responses. And of course, with our actions, especially in situations where we, where there's authority figures telling us what to do. And there are not natural consequences to our behaviors but forced consequences. We don't always have a choice over what we do, but we always have a choice how we respond to that from within.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: And so he's a great resource. And I think also years ago, I watched this presentation by this guy called Charlie Plum. And he was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for six years. And so he starts this presentation. He goes all over the country, and it's dark, so you can't see him on stage. And you just hear these three, like he just does this…

SAMIA: Yeah. Hits the table with some kind of a gavel or something. Just for people who are listening, as opposed to watching.

FEMKE: He's actually walking three steps, but pretty loudly. And then three steps forward and then three steps back. And that was the size of his cell. And then he talks about, you know, like he was tortured. Of course, he was, he didn't have any... He couldn't go where he wanted to go. So he was very much controlled. And then he ends up talking to through, like, little papers, like a Morse code. He talks to the guy next to him, and then he's like, "Oh, how are you doing?" The guy next to him is like, "How are you doing?" And so he's like, finally someone to talk to and complain to. And so he starts on this rant. "Why are we here? We shouldn't be here. People in the White House should be sitting here. You know, this is not our War." And so the guy says that he suffers from prison. He no, he suffers from a disease. And then he's like, okay, what kind of disease? And then he says, oh, you're suffering from prison thinking.

SAMIA: Oh…

FEMKE: And he gets really mad because he's like, well, I am in prison. And, you know, like, I am stuck here. And so the guy talks to him about prison thinking, about how you have no options, there's nothing you can do. And, you know, like, it's an unhealthy disease. It's very similar to what Viktor Frankl talks about, who is in a concentration camp. And so the essence of that message is that you can choose your thoughts and feelings. Now with adults, we have to kind of bring that back because in a way we are so taught to be disciplined, to have unnatural consequences, and to be in kind of like that victim place because we don't feel power.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: For most of our school years.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: So bringing that back, if we can get that at the start, that a kid can listen to their intuition, find their own yeses and no's, that I think that would be pretty amazing.

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the things. That you reminded me of is, I think, Victor Franklin only who, or it may have been one of the other very amazing people might, but I think it was Victor Franklin... But he said something to the effect of you know, because, you know, he was talking from the perspective of, you know, being in a situation where his body was being completely controlled. And he said at some point he had a realization that he could, his mind could still be free. And he could choose how he thinks and how he feels. And at some point, he made the choice to not hate.

FEMKE: Yes.

SAMIA: The people who had imprisoned him and who were torturing him and so forth.

FEMKE: Yeah. He talks about they can take away all of my freedoms except for the freedom to choose my responses.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: And they can't make me hate them.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. And for me, that has been such a powerful thing. I think among the first times that I heard that, it made me also think about so many other amazing people that I consider you know, people that I look up to and that I want to follow, including, you know, many of our other prophets in our holy books, whether you're talking about Jesus or Prophet Muhammad or the Buddha, etc. But also just other real-life figures, you know, who are really committed to non-violence as a way of life, like Gandhiji, you know, like for us Indian people, he is our great, great role model from our history. And each one of them has made this choice to not hate, right? Even the people who consider themselves. Their enemy and do all kinds of horrendous things to deprive them of their rights and harm them in every imaginable way, whether it's in terms of the body, certainly in terms of trying to control their lives and their well-being. And not just them as an individual, but oftentimes, you know, like if you can't control an individual, you go after their loved ones, you know, to try and control them. People can get really vicious and really, really into wanting to control other people.

FEMKE: Yeah. Yeah. And it's and, you know, like, it's baked into our system in our society, I think, to want to control and that that's okay, especially with children, I think, you know, like, we're like, under the guise of discipline. And so we also grow up. thinking that that's normal.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: There's this tribe, and I'm gonna mangle this. I don't know where this tribe is. But what they do is when someone, you know, like, veers off course or does something like some form of a transgression. Everyone has their own song that when they are born, they get their own song. And what the tribe does is that they actually, they don't punish that person. They remind that person who they truly are. So they sing that song back to that person over and over again until they remember who they truly are. And I find that so beautiful because when we actually do remember who we truly are, you don't want to do damage to other people. You know, like that inner guidance system is so strong. And yet here we are disciplining children, thinking that if we just scare them or get mad at them, they're gonna behave, but, they're also going to be lost.

SAMIA: Yes. You know, you, oh gosh, you always bring up so much, right now you just made me think about, I was listening to another podcast and they were talking about, it was actually a podcast, where they were discussing challenges that people with ADHD can face. And they were actually talking about how, you know, because folks with ADHD can find it difficult to like sit still and focus as they're supposed to, particularly in the context of school and so forth, that they can, you know, also be challenged in their relationships. And one of the things that they were talking about also is that when we raise our kids to make things easier, you know, we are like, okay, you just tell kids what to do. And if there's like a fight going on between kids, you're like, and you don't want to spend the time to talk things through, and you're just like, go tell an adult. Go tell an adult, report any bad behavior you see from other kids, etc. Go tell an adult and then the adult will discipline in the situation. They're like, you know, if you think about it, what we're training our kids to do is we're training them not to be able to live in a democracy. We are training them to live under authoritarianism.

FEMKE: Yeah.

SAMIA: You know, like a child who grows up. Learning that the solution to the problems that they're facing in their relationships is that you go tell an authority, and the authority tells you what to do, and everyone must comply. Well, when you are an adult, you're going to continue... If you continue that same thinking and behavior, you're basically talking about living in an authoritarian state.

FEMKE: Yeah, and that creates learned helplessness.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: And you see that all the time. It's like, and in a way, I don't want to be too radical here or, you know, but that's how our school system here in America was set up. It was designed to create factory workers.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: So it was designed to create a sense of learned helplessness. And to have people not think for themselves is actually funny. Like I had years ago, I did this, I did some coaching for this guy, he owned his own company and he said, Femke, I have a very authoritarian approach in my business and I know that I'm reading about it, I know that that's not right, but can you help me do something about it? And so I did this training for his team, and this was like his management team, right. Not for, and they were complaining about the exact same thing. Oh, our employees never think for themselves. And they are always like, what should I do? And so I taught them about learned helplessness. And it was like the veil lifted from their eyes. And they were like, oh my God, this is so good. We have to, you know, like we want more input into our, like, with the direction of the business, but we also want our people to our employees to give more input. And so the moment that the manager found out about it, he fired me because he was like, this is not the direction that I want to be going in, right. So he wanted to kind of show as if he was less authoritarian. And I had talked to him about this. I said, I think I need to work with you first, but he didn't want that. He wanted, you know, his people to change, which I also think often, I mean, you can translate that to relationships as well, right. Well, like, oh, I want the other person to change. There's something wrong with the other person. But, yeah. So I think learned helplessness in our society is very common simply because we are taught it's our it's inherent in our school system.

SAMIA: Yes, yes. And so it's like you learn it in one context where someone really wants to control you. And maybe their intentions are not bad in the sense that, like, for example, a teacher, or a parent who's like, I just want my kid to do what I tell them to do. Maybe they're just thinking, okay, about making everyone's life easier and just being able to get through a day because they themselves are so busy and stressed and, you know, they want to reduce conflict and, you know, they just, they're like... And, you know, so they want to do their best by their kid and they truly maybe think that that is how they're going to be able to do their best by their kid. So the intention can be good, but it's like not recognizing the consequences that we ourselves are not aware of you know, that we are experiencing and that we are also now teaching and subjecting our children to and so…

FEMKE: ..it can be scary, too.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: Right? I mean, well, first of all, I think I wouldn't want to be a teacher with 25-30 kids, you know, and then have certain external expectations of what they're going to learn and how they're going to test. I mean, the pressure of that is wild, and the compensation is also wild because they don't really get what they deserve. So I, you know, like the intention is there. I think it's just at the foundation; the system doesn't work. And then we also, I think, buy into these rules, right. Oh, kids are supposed to sit still. And if they can't, they have ADHD.

SAMIA: Right. 

FEMKE: And we have to medicate them. And so my nephew, he's 19 now, but when he was really little, I'm like five years old. He said, Femke, I can't sit still. I just don't want to. And I can listen. I just don't want to. And this kid was so he's, like, totally nature wild. You know, he knew every species in of, like, bug in my parents' pond. He could be there all day long, but school was not something that fit for him. So they drugged him. They, you know, they gave him ADHD medication. And he just recently, because we saw it as, like, outside. That's what we saw that it really numbed him and made him, like, flatline kind of. But there's not much that you can do, right. So he just recently weaned himself off of those drugs. And he discovered that the only place where he struggles with attention is at school. He said, I don't have an issue with staying focused anywhere else other than at school. But he was made to be the problem all these years, as if there's something wrong with him rather than with the system. And I'm not saying this is not easy because I speak from a place of privilege. I want to point that out to, I don't have to go to a nine-to-five job, right, to make ends meet. And so I get to do this. This is a privilege in this system. And so I do also realize that that's not possible for everyone to do. And that this is a much bigger issue. Yeah, I mean, back in the day, we were able to be home with our kids more.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. And you know, the sad thing in some ways is, like, first at school. But then for a lot of us in our working lives, that actually, and like you were saying, school in our society has been designed to produce us, to be factory workers or office workers of a certain kind. And so, you know, it is pretty much, most people do end up following this path of first you get trained for a certain way of life, and then you actually enter into that way of life, and you graduate from school, as it were. And so then you actually do spend your life, you know, living in these contexts where your very livelihood is dependent upon your willingness and your ability to allow yourself to be controlled. And so, like, for me, again, as a happiness expert, trying to help my people take back control of their happiness, I struggle with adults also in terms of telling them, okay, you can choose how you think, you can choose how you feel, you can choose how you act.

FEMKE: Yeah. Because it's one thing to understand that…

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: ..it's another thing to really embody that. And I think that's really critical. It's like, hey, I, you know, feeling like I am the owner of my thoughts and feelings, and no one can make me think or feel something that I don't want to think or feel.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: To really embody that. Right. It's not a cognitive understanding. That's…

SAMIA: Yeah. Yes, exactly. It's like cognitively you're like, no, there's all of this evidence in my life and my experience that I don't control how I think and feel and act and I can't do it. And so it really is like something you have to, I mean, it takes a certain level of courage and a certain level of trust. to even be willing to jump into like the kind of learning that I'm inviting people into with me or that you are inviting people into with you where we're like, okay, you know what? We're going to do some experiments and we're going to like, you know, try out this new way of doing things and see if it works for you. See if there you can find some evidence for what we're saying is true, is true for you. And then, you know, to continually work on expanding your experience of that freedom and that ability to choose and…

FEMKE: Yeah. And that also, then, I think it relates to our relationship with the unknown.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: Right, bringing that back to our first conversation, because when you let go of like, here's the thing, we, it's not just about, oh, I own my thoughts and feelings. It also means that you don't own someone else's.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: Right. I don't own someone else's actions. And when we look at relationships, love relationships, parent relationships, we often, there is like an element of, I'm uncomfortable in a situation, so I'm going to try and control you. You see this in love relationships. I've been like that with my husband was like the biggest, I always like was so critical and oh like, you know, you're not doing this, you're not doing that, always looking for like what's missing when really I didn't feel safe. And so once I healed that, I could see that there was nothing to change. But it's like this fear of like, is someone gonna show up for me? Are they gonna, you know, and once you stop that fight, if you will, of working harder, working harder in a relationship than maybe your partner or what you perceive your partner is doing, once you are able to kind of like let go of that, then you step into an unknown because are they going to show up for you? Are you going to get what you want? And so that fear of those consequences is what keeps people in, you know, back in that trying to control their environment.

SAMIA: Yeah. You know, this makes me think of question. So I was watching a program, and this is like... Wait, I better not get into what the program is. It's very interesting, but no time for us to delve into what the program is about. So okay, but here's what one of the characters said that I'm thinking of right now. So he said, like literally, they were having a discussion about power and what power is. And so this one character says, "Power, how much power you have is defined by how many people you can control and how many people you can make do what you want them to do. And that is power." And, you know, basically that the goal for the characters, it's like they're in a power struggle. They want to get as much power as they can because they're like, if I don't get more power, someone's going to have, someone else is going to take that power. And then not only have more power than I do, But they'll also have power over me. And so it's a question of like, it becomes like a question of existential threat almost.

FEMKE: Yeah, yeah.

SAMIA: That we must do whatever it takes to have more power, as much power as we can have. Yeah. And so I'm wondering what you think power really is about. Because, you know, I rec... I have felt this and gone through this in my life where I had huge power and control issues. Like, I was afraid of being controlled and allowing anyone to have power over me. And so I did everything I could, and I went a little crazy in that context, like in terms of, you know, trying to exercise as much power and control over my life, certainly as I could. But I ended up disrupting a lot of other people's lives too, because. Yeah. So, what, and you know, like for me, one thing that I've learned over time is that there's like, on the one hand, we don't want to be controlled because it doesn't feel safe. But also on the other hand, like especially when you start to think about healing from your trauma and things like that, you know, you want to feel more powerful in terms of... And I think there's this, as you develop a more empowered mindset, you know, sort of like there's this thinking of, yeah, yeah, I am powerful. I am powerful. I do have the power to do this and a power to do that. And in some ways, it's really important for us to be able to realize that we are powerful, that we're not powerless, that we're not helpless. So it's like a very, very strong need, like feeling powerful is a very, very strong need that we have. But what really is power, like truly…

FEMKE: That's such a big question. But what comes up for me is that one of the things that I teach my clients, and it's a process that I learned from Michael Hall, he has developed a field that's called neurosemantics. And I used to work side by side by him and then moved on. I wanted to streamline some of the work that we were doing. What he has, what that process is like we take ownership. So you feel you start with actually feeling ownership over something. So you know, like you go like, oh, I own my bracelet. For example, this is my bracelet. No one else owns it. It's my bracelet. And when you feel that, when you can feel that ownership in your body, you can transfer that ownership and build a different relationship with the power of your thinking and with the power of your feeling, right. So, because those are powers, I have the power of thought. I have the power of feeling. I have the power of actions. because that's, those are our four main powers, thinking, feeling, actions, and words. What I often see, and this is very fascinating, is like, if I take on, if I have ownership over my bracelet, and I can also feel that same sense of ownership over my thoughts and feelings, often what's like, oh, a negative thought comes in, right. And so then there's like, oh, I can't do it because I have this thought. Okay, do you realize that that's also your thought? Right? You own that thought. So we're building a different neurological connection with the power of thinking. And what I often see is that people, it's almost like they get like a defensiveness around it. So I worked with this lady from Egypt at one point, and she was like, oh, like, my glasses are mine. And, you know, they're really mine. She was gripping them hard. And if anyone ever grabs them, then I'm like, you know. So she was already in her mind thinking, someone can take this away from me, right. So we had, like, a little bit of a laugh about that. I said, like, it's not a defensive ownership, because if you own something outright.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: No one can take it from you. And so it's like a such a natural ownership. It's just mine. That's it. It's so neutral. It's like, yeah, it's a given that this is mine. And when you can bring that to your thoughts and your feelings rather than your thoughts and your feelings having you. To me, that is true power, because at that point, no one can, in that sense, make you think or feel something that you don't want to feel. And they're gonna, in a way, that can be very frustrating for people because they don't have control over you anymore, right?

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. So just I think we're on the same page, but just to clarify and make sure I'm thinking about what you're saying in the right way. Where... So we were just. Okay, so if we think about power as, like, feeling a sense of ownership. What is the relationship control in terms of what we have ownership over. So are we saying or are you saying that if you have ownership over something then like you use the words like no one can really take that away from you, but what does that mean in terms of controlling?

FEMKE: Yeah. so, yeah.

FEMKE: So here's the thing, too. And this is where a lot of my clients, and I think, you know, most people get stuck. Ownership is one thing because I can use that ownership to want to control other people because, and this is where that relationship with the unknown comes in. If I feel that and your body registers that very subliminally. If my body registers, hey, something in this situation is out of my hands. So not in my power, other people's reactions, what the future is going to bring, what's going to happen next, something that I don't understand, things that are just literally out of my hands. How something is going to come about, right. Like what the universe's job. When I don't have a good relationship with that sensation in my body because there's so much distrust, that's when I want to start to control. And some people go do that through numbing themselves. Other people do that through trying to control other people, but they're all different versions of controlling what's out of our hands. And so I think there's that ownership of your own thoughts and feelings and your own powers, and then the surrendering of what's not yours. And that's like, that requires trust.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So first of all, getting clear on what you even have ownership of, you know, you just made me think about, I was going through a sort of spiritual process and exercise, and I won't get into what exactly it was, but it gave me a flash of understanding that I had never experienced before, because as I mentioned, I'm not a parent. I've never had a child that I've given birth to in this life. And I always used to sort of be puzzled by, I couldn't understand what the difference may be between how, let's say, I love my mom, who is one of the people I love the most in the world. If not, like she's probably the person I do love the most in the world. And the difference between the love that she feels for me as her child you know, because this keeps coming up both for me in my relationship with my mom particularly, but also my dad, but my mom mostly. But also I see this in other parent-child relationships around me as well, where it does seem like there is something, something different, like and my mom is always like saying, like, until you become a mom, you don't, you won't get it. You won't get it. There's various things that will happen where she's expressing her love in a way where I'm like, mom, you're going overboard or let go. You don't have to worry about this or that. Particularly when she's like worrying about me. And I'm like, you know, no, let go. You don't have to worry about me in those ways. I can take care of myself, etc., etc... But she's like, you don't get it because you're not a mom. You won't get it until you are a mom. And I'm like, I don't understand. I love you. I love you more than anyone else in the world. you know, I, like, I would give my life to save your life if it gave to that, you know, like that kind of thing. So, like, what's the difference? And when I was going through this spiritual exercise. It gave me, like, a flash of understanding. It was like, it was like I saw through a mom's eyes. And it was like the mom feeling with regard to the child was like, there was absolutely no doubt that my child belongs to me. There was absolutely no doubt about, there's no question of ever forgetting my child. There was no question of, and there is like the sense of like my entire, sort of like, you know, like being like, like wherever my child went, I naturally oriented. And there were there remained a part of my awareness, you know. It was just such a different feeling. And I realized, like, from a child's perspective, you can be in doubt, and you can forget your parents sometimes, like when you're busy playing, for example. You know, you have this, you get distracted and you don't always have your parent in mind, and then you really remember and you're like, whoa, whoa, where's my parent? Where's my parent? And then you're, like, looking for your parent. And you know, you need that surety that they're still there and you need validation from your parent to know that you love them. Not that you love them, but that they do love you. And, you know, so there, there isn't... And, I mean, I, there, there isn't always. Yeah, I mean, I think that was like, and I don't know if this is true for every parent and every child, but that was what I felt. And it just struck me as really true for me that, you know, my mom is not always in my awareness. I mean, it, like, and there are times when, you know, I get so busy with me, and my life. And then I have to sort of, and then when I take a pause with whatever I'm busy with, then I'm like, whoa, where's my mom? What's going on with her? But I think with her, there's all like, but when I was having that insight into the mom's perspective, it was like the mom always had her child as part of her awareness. And that just complete knowing that my child and I belong together, we are one. That was like the most amazing thing.

FEMKE: And I think the moment they come out of the womb, there is this sense of like, okay, you know, their separation. And kids, I think, go through that awareness, too, which is why they have separation anxiety. But it requires so much trust to let your kid go out into the world because it's such a huge part of you. And I think that may be, like, one of the most challenging aspects is when we talk about you know, like, they are their own person. You can't think their thoughts for them. You can't feel their feelings for them.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: So they go through their own pains and their own struggles. And that requires, you know, like, holding the space for your kid without wanting to fix it for them. Like, I had that over the weekend. I was thinking about that you know, just like I want to be the mom that holds the space, but that doesn't necessarily shield my kid from what we would call negative emotions. They are part and parcel of Life. Loss is part of life. And so, you know, like, as a mom, you want to take that away. I don't think that's necessarily the healthiest thing to do, but it's like, yeah. And so your own relationship with your own emotions and your own relationship with loss, all of those play such a huge role in when you parent. I mean, my kid, like, so my kid is at the age where he wants to bike to the grocery store by himself. He has to cross two busy streets. There's like traffic lights, you know, fine. And I like, I have a phone that I can track him where he is. And for some reason that turned off. So the other day he was down at the grocery store. I could see that he arrived with his friend. And so and all of a sudden it went dead. And here I am, like, freaking out, like, what's going on? And, like, you know, all nervous. I said to my husband, I'm gonna drive to the grocery store. And then I get there, and they're just, you know, singing in the grocery aisles because they're having a blast together. And I came back and I said, oh, my God, this phone is driving me mad because you can, you know, like you can kind of comfort your fears, if you will, with them, but they can also freak them out a lot. And I said, I don't know how my mom did it, but she never, I'm not going to say she never knew where we were, but we went on adventures all the time in our town, just hopped on our bikes, off we went and, you know, there was, like, a system in place where, you know, people would report, hey, like, I saw your kid, you know, like, so my mom would always have, like, an idea of where we were, but she wasn't checking on us every single minute. And I feel like, you know, the trust that the moms of the 80s, 70s and 80s had is enviable. Yeah, there was just so much more trust and now sometimes it feels scarier and getting back to that trust, I think, is so important to not helicopter.

SAMIA: Yes. Okay, I have two very strong thoughts that I want to share with you.

FEMKE: Yeah.

SAMIA: I'm only going to share one of them for the sake of time, because once again, we find ourselves in a position where we're running out of time. Oh, gosh... Okay. But this, okay, so the strongest thought that I'm going to choose to share with you. Is thinking about, you know, going back to the idea of transcendence and our relationship by trusting the universe, the Divine, and, you know, like, so, you know, I'll speak, you know, as a Muslim in this moment, some person. and, you know, I was thinking and reflecting upon what I understand my relationship with God to be, you know, because if there is a relationship of power and control, I mean, ultimate relationship of power and control, it's probably our relationship with our Creator, our Lord, you know, Lord by definition, you know, is someone who has power over whatever, you know, that they're Lord of. Right. And but the thing that I was in the, especially in the recent, just in the recent years, just... I think this has been very new for me, honestly, in just like the last few years to realize and recognize that, yes, like on the one hand, God has the power to do whatever God wants with me. Like I literally, if God said, I don't want Samia to be able to move a muscle, I wouldn't be able to move a muscle. I believe that. Like, I could get paralyzed. You know, he could make it so that, you know, my entire body is paralyzed. Many people have that experience, you know? If God said, I don't want Samia to be able to, you know, remember things. Oh, Samia gets into an accident, damage to her brain. She loses her ability to maintain her memory. I mean, that happens to people, right. And so, and I believe that that is something that God can control. I do believe that. So on the one hand, you know, it's like, okay, there's this being that I believe exists and I'm in relationship that has the ability to have total control over me. And as a Muslim, what we are taught, like the very word Islam means to surrender to God, right. And so it's like this relationship where you're like, okay, okay, I'm supposed to surrender.  Surrender to this being that also is all powerful over everything, including me. And so it's like this idea, like I mentioned, I used to be like very, very like, I don't want anyone controlling me because I was traumatized by an experience of abuse. And so, but you know, it was like when I realized that God doesn't want to control me, like in the sense that God actually, what we are also taught is, has given me free will. And so I get to choose. I get to choose whether I even follow God's guidance that he sends my way. in terms of God says, Samia, I want you to never lie. I mean, it would be really good for you if you didn't lie and don't kill anybody and like, you know, umpteen number of other examples one could give in terms of guidance that we receive in various forms and God that we believe is from God and God is like, don't do this and do that. And I'm like, no, I'm going to tell a lie. But I find it convenient or whatever, and, you know, and I'm a lot. I'm able to do it. I'm able to do it, you know? And so God is giving. Has not only given me the theoretical possibility of free will. It's real free will. Like, I can I can literally go against the Commandments, you know, that are enshrined in the scripture and so on, so forth. So it's like real free will. And so it's like made me, it was really making me think about like power. And I was like, you know, I think what I'm realizing is that power isn't about control. It's like God could control me, but doesn't. I mean, there's many things that God controls about my life and about the world and that I exist in and stuff. But there's still this freedom that I've been allowed and there's something so beautiful in that, right. I mean, and I think it's an expression of God's unconditional love also for us that, you know, God doesn't require us to be a certain way in order for us to be in relationship.

FEMKE: Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, like, for me, I... And I didn't grow up with, you know, like, inside of a religion. I just remember from a very early age that I just knew that there was something bigger out there, you know, like, I just didn't know what that was, and I think when I went through some experience, like losing my dad, that I started to see that force as something that was against me, right. The universe is against me. And at that point, it becomes like, okay, now I can't trust that at all. There's such distrust, everything that feels out of my hands. So, like, what do you do? You hold on to control. It's like a form of self-preservation and what I'm finding now also when I work with my clients, even moving beyond the concept of God that we have been taught, right. Because I think in religion, there is also a lot of things mixed in with who God is as a form to control people.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: And when we can move beyond that, and like I said in the last chat that we had, I'm non-denominational, I think that's how you call that. So I've worked with Muslims, Christians, people who are like atheists, doesn't matter. When we get back to the essence of who they are and the oneness, the thing that keeps coming back is unconditional love and support.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FEMKE: Right. And I think if we can get to that place, then the surrender, when we can feel that, then surrender is easy.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. And that's what I've been finding is that knowing that God is not on an agenda to control me, that I get to have true freedom, is what has allowed me to have deeper and deeper trust and be okay with surrendering to God.

FEMKE: Right. 

SAMIA: You know, because I'm like, okay, okay, okay... It's like God's not on a like trip to control me. I get to choose, and I know God loves me. I'm feeling that more and more more fully and completely and in loving me, you know, God's actually, you know, doing the very best of everything to take care of me. Like, even when I'm being rebellious and doing things that God said, don't do that, Samia, you know, it doesn't abandon me. You know, God doesn't abandon me. Just says, just keep sending me reminders and messages and you know, like, come back to me, Samia, come back to me. Just keeps calling me back, you know? And so, yeah, it made me also think about, you know, that Insight I had into the mom's perspective. I'm like, you know, maybe it's like, about that knowing that we just belong to each other, and nothing can change that. It doesn't matter what I do or what the other person that we're dealing with in the relationship does. We belong to each other, and nothing can change that. I think there's something really powerful in that knowing that allows us to give each other more grace and freedom and not try to be so controlling.

FEMKE: Yeah, that's the mission. Actually, speaking of Mission, Alanis Morissette has a beautiful song about that, about her relationship with her kids. It's called Ablaze. And she talks about my mission is to keep the light in your eyes Ablaze. And speaking from a mom to you know, all her kids. And I think that's so beautiful because that you can only do that if that light can be there and be and they can be a full expression of that. And that comes with surrender.

SAMIA: Yeah. Oh, my gosh, Femke. Thank you so much for taking the time to have this wonderful, meaningful conversation with me again. And again, there's so much more we could talk about. And if you want to come back, I'd be happy to have you come back also. But for now, do you have any last thoughts?

FEMKE: No, I mean, I also literally could continue talking with you. It's just such a joy to explore all these concepts with you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah…

SAMIA: Yay! Thank you. And for my last reminder, I will just remind our listeners to please make sure you check the show notes because we will be dropping Femke's links in there and mine too, of course, so you can get in touch with either one of us whenever you want to dive even deeper, learn more, connect, get more help and support whenever you're ready for it. And until we connect next time, I wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)

FEMKE: I love it. Bye, everyone.