Reclaiming Power in Abusive Relationships.

Reclaiming Power in Abusive Relationships.
With Deborah Weed & Samia Bano

Struggling with your #selfworth? Or struggling to leave a #toxicrelationship or #abusiverelationship?

Listen now to this interview with Deborah Weed, Self-Worth Ambassador + Motivational Speaker + Creative Whirlwind. Many empathetic and kind-hearted people struggle to leave toxic or #abusiverelationships. We explore why this happens, from feelings of shame to believing the abuse is somehow their fault. We share how reclaiming self-worth and recognizing your personal power is the first step toward freedom, #healing, and #OvercomingAbuse.

Understand:

-- some of the most common dynamics in abusive relationships and how you can #protectyourenergy, and stop internalizing blame

-- the critical difference between #selfesteem and self-worth and how you can cultivate a strong sense of self-worth

-- how to balance care and love for others without sacrificing your own safety or dignity

-- how to attract #healthyrelationships that reflect true care and respect

-- the #spiritual dimension of healing that encourages #holistichealing that touches the mind, body, and soul.

-- and so much more!

Connect with Deborah at:

http://www.selfworthinitiative.net

http://www.paisleysfashionforest.com

https://deborahweed1.hopp.to/amazon

NOTE: If you or someone you love is struggling in an abusive relationship, you can get guidance and resources by connecting with the National Domestic Violence Hotline at: https://www.thehotline.org/

For those in the Los Angeles area, check out my favorite domestic violence agency, Peace Over Violence: https://www.peaceoverviolence.org/

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

#domesticviolenceawareness #domesticviolencesurvivors #healthyrelationship #healthyrelationshiptips #toxicrelationshiphealing #toxicrelationshiprecovery #SelfLove #HealingJourney #Empowerment #BreakTheCycle #AbuseRecovery #BoundariesMatter #LoveYourselfFirst #TraumaHealing #InnerStrength #EmotionalFreedom #CompassionAndCourage #PersonalGrowth #SelfRespect #LoveAndHealing #MindsetShift #FreedomFromAbuse #EmpoweredLiving #healingfromwithin

Here's the audio version of this episode:

Full Video Transcript

SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Dzień Dobry! It's really, really good to be with you again. And I know you'll be so happy and excited you have joined us today because we have such a cool guest with us, and that is Deborah Weed, who is a Self Worth Ambassador and a motivational speaker and a creative whirlwind. Wow, that's so amazing. Welcome, Deborah…

DEBORAH: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

SAMIA: I'm so happy to have you with us. And Deborah, please tell us more about who you are and what you do.

DEBORAH: Absolutely. I am the founder of the Self Worth Initiative. And self worth is kind of a funny thing because everybody thinks that self esteem and self worth are the same, and they're not. Self esteem is when you do something great and you're like, okay, I've got great self esteem, but if you're not doing anything, then where does the self worth come from? It comes from inside you and you have to claim it. So for the last... I guess it's more than 10 years, I've been creating books and musicals and everything, like almost in an entertainment package. So you don't even know that you're being taught what self worth means. And we've done productions in New York and Miami, inspired all kinds of kids and families. And now I'm working on a musical for adults that I'm very excited about.

SAMIA: Nice. I love it. And I love that you're drawing this distinction between self worth and self esteem, and especially in the way that you are doing it. So self esteem, you're saying, is when you do something that you can be like, oh, I did something really good, or something really well. So if we are not doing something and it happens with all of us, there are times in our lives when we're like, I'm not doing anything or I can't do anything. I know this is a problem. My gosh. I've seen my mom struggle with a lot as she has been aging. And, you know, because of her arthritis and other health conditions, she's just not physically able to do as much as she was used to doing her entire life. Like, she is one of these people who was constantly doing something and usually for other people. And it was such an important aspect of her sense of self and what made her valuable that now that she is not only not able to do as much, but is more and more in need of receiving care herself, she's been really struggling at a mental emotional level to come to terms with that. And I think it has a lot to do with not recognizing this distinction between self worth and self esteem. And not only not recognizing it, but not developing the self... You know, like just focusing on the self esteem part versus the self worth part. So you have to tell me more about the self worth. Like where, what's the basis of that? What's the foundation and how do we develop more?

DEBORAH: You know, that was so well put. That was such a great illustration of what people go through, especially no matter what age you are, because we are taught self esteem, right. It's sort of like, oh, you did such a great job on that podcast. That was wonderful. And you're like, ah, that sounds good. But when you don't have those things going on, self worth is something that you claim for yourself. It's something that you say what you're worth. So I'm going to give you a very visual example.

SAMIA: Okay.

DEBORAH: Let's talk about Picasso. Now, if you went into, I don't know if you have children, do you?

SAMIA: Not me, but I have nieces and nephews.

DEBORAH: Okay. So if you go to your nieces and nephews' school and you walk in and you see all these pictures on the wall, let's say that you saw a Picasso there and it's a line drawing of two faces and you're like, oh, what child made that? No, it's Picasso worth millions of dollars. So why did Picasso make millions of dollars on his artwork? Because he claimed it. He said, this is what I'm worth. And everybody said, oh, that's what you're worth. Fine, here's the money. So that is a good example of what self worth feels like. The only thing is, most of us haven't been taught when we're growing up. A lot of times we're told negative things. You're no good, you don't look right. You're a different religion, you're a different color. And we're torn down instead of really going to our inherent worth. And so we don't even know where to get that or how to get that. And it's an imperative, especially right now, to start to recognize that every one of us is precious. Every one of us has a gift. And every one of us is like in a tapestry where when we touch another life, it can keep on going and going and going. The ripple effect is immense. So that's a little perspective of what self worth is.

SAMIA: Yeah. So claiming your worth, that is an analogy that you give it like Picasso. That's interesting. If I might. Actually, I agree with you, but just. Oh, no, I think I'm learning deeper.

DEBORAH: Yes, absolutely.

SAMIA: So, you know, like, that is actually a really great analogy for us to sort of, like, dig deeper into because, you know, there are like, so many artists who are producing work that, you know, is not necessarily commercially popular or considered commercially viable, but they're doing it because they're pouring their heart and soul into something, and they want to produce something that's really meaningful to them, and they think that it's like, really valuable and so forth. And yet they don't receive appreciation. Like, if they put it out there in the world for people to appreciate, to purchase, whatever, and they just don't get the response back that they would love. I mean, we have the stereotype of.

DEBORAH: The starving artist, right with you.

SAMIA: So it's like, what's going on? It's like, I'm trying to. If I'm the starving artist right now, it's like I'm trying to, you know, claim my worth. I think my stuff is, like, really valuable. I'm doing, like, probably feeling good about myself, doing things that I think are meaningful, but I'm not receiving that validation from the wider society as to, oh, no, you really are worth that, or you really are doing something valuable. And so then maybe doubt starts to come into my mind and, you know, and I'm like, well, am I really doing something that's really valuable? And then. But then I'm starting, oh, but I see the problem. I'm starting to think about self esteem rather than self worth. So, like, how do I keep myself grounded in self worth and not keep defaulting back to self esteem as I've been taught?

DEBORAH: Once again, that is a perfect example. Because even me as an artist, that is the feeling, the starving artist. And it is like going for the self esteem. But let me answer that question with another story. I have a friend who is an artist from Puerto Rico. She does these beautiful paintings. And when she first came out with the paintings, she spent, like, I don't even know, it could have been two years painting. And they're magnificent. All these colors, just so beautiful. And she was like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna have this big show. I'm gonna have it at my home, and everybody's going to come, they're going to see the artwork, and it's going to be wonderful. She gets the show ready, I'm invited. I’m like her dear friend. I come, nobody shows, nobody. And at that moment, the amount of despair you can imagine, you know, self worth, self esteem, self esteem goes. And self worth is like, ooh, do I have any? Is there anything in me that believes beyond what I'm seeing? Have I claimed that? And you know, I prayed and I was like, what can I share with her? And then it was like, you know what? The divine, in whatever way you term it, is watching, that's your audience. That's your audience because you have just given the best show of your life and now you can claim it. And you know what happened? She did. And you know what happened? She went on to be a star artist, a star Puerto Rican artist. So where is self worth in that? We're not taught self worth. We're not taught that it's good enough. So many people would crumble under those circumstances because it would be so hurtful. It's like proof, proof nobody came. I'm no good, proof. I worked for two years and, you know, where are the sales? Where's the money? Self worth. You know what? It doesn't matter. I'm not here for self esteem. I'm not here for the accolades. I'm here because I have been given a gift and I'm sharing it. And wherever it takes me, I know what it's worth. And even if I don't get paid a dime, it doesn't really matter in some ways because I'm not looking for the self esteem. I know that this is what my purpose is and what it's meant to be. And we just don't know, like, all the implications of what can happen. And I do want to share another story, but I'll pause here for a second.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like we have reduced our understanding of what is valuable to what will make us money or what you know, is validated by the receiving of money. And we don't. And what you're encouraging us to do is think about, even if you're going to think about the impact that we're having, to think about it in a much broader perspective in terms of like, not beyond money that, you know, like when, when you put your heart and soul into some work and you put it out there, it's like how many ripple effects are you having whether it's. They're related to money or not. Yeah.

DEBORAH: Because self worth, you know, think of this. I mean, let's, let's go there. How many billionaires might not have self worth? Why do they commit suicide? Influence. Millions and millions of people. Why do they commit suicide? What's missing? Self worth. And it can be. It does. You know, you could be. You could be in poverty and have self. You've heard of people, they get up, you know, they're like the janitor and they're singing.

SAMIA: They.

DEBORAH: And they're dancing. There's something in their heart that's full because they have. They know their value even if nobody else can see it. So let me share another story. It's one of my favorites. I used to love Touched by an Angel. It's a movie that was, you know, where the angel comes and says certain things. And this was one of my favorites. And I think it has a segue here. There's a guy with Lou Gehrig's, and he's an artist, and he's gonna die that night. We know that he's gonna die that night. And the angel comes to him and she says, you have two choices. You can read a book to your children before you die, or you can finish your painting. Now, that painting is gonna be the money that's gonna support your family. And those are your choices. And of course, because it's Touched by an angel, he goes and he reads to his children, reads to his children. And he passes away the next week or whenever it is, or they put a tarp over the painting that's unfinished. And a little while later, the art agent comes to see the painting so that she can sell it and help support this family. And she says to the wife, can I see the painting? And the wife says, well, he wasn't really able to finish it. And she says, yeah, but let me see, you know, maybe we can do something to it. So they take off the tarp and of course it's complete. And then the angel thing says, whatever you start, God in whatever form, no matter how you call it, will complete it. And that is a very powerful story of self worth to a certain extreme because he could have done this self esteem thing with a painting, but he did this self worth thing by being with his kids because he knew inherently that he was the masterpiece. He is enough.

SAMIA: Oh, that's a very interesting story. Thank you so much for sharing that. I love it. Made me think about a teaching in the Muslim tradition that comes from the Prophet Muhammad where he talks about, like, if you're planting a tree and the day of judgment comes meaning, like it's the end of the world, like you see it. It's like end of the world, he says, still finish planting that tree.

DEBORAH: See, that's the same thing. Why did he say that? Why do you think he said that?

SAMIA: Yeah. I mean, there are so many different implications to that, right? I mean, there's like, at one level, it's teaching us the lesson of not being attached to results. It's like, why were you planting the tree in the first place? What was important about it and to remember that. And it's like, if it wasn't an important thing, then why were you doing it? Don't do something that's not meaningful and important, but assuming that it is something meaningful and important and you choose to do it, then do it, regardless of whether you think it is going to produce the result that you hope for or not. Because the results are not what we can control, what we control are our actions. And the other layer to it, similar to what you are saying is, you know, about recognizing the role of God in our life, you know, that it's like we are here to do the best we can in terms of, okay, this is what I think is the right thing to do, the moral thing to do, the ethical thing to do. And so you do your best effort to act in that way, but then it's up to God to produce the results, you know, and so it's like a matter of faith and trust in God that as long as I'm doing what I believe is the right thing to do, the moral thing to do, ethical thing to do, then God will take care of whatever happens, it'll happen for the good.

DEBORAH: That was so. I love that. See, I learned something wonderful today. That is so true. Like you said, why would anybody plant a tree if the world's coming to an end? I mean, all the trees are going to be gone. But if there's something, it's almost affirming life, it's affirming our beauty. It's affirming that we can. I mean, trees are living things, living beings, and we're attending to that. So that was so beautifully put. I love it.

SAMIA: Oh, thank you. Yeah. And you know, like, what you're just saying about, wow, the trees being a living thing, I mean. Yeah, it's like. I mean, actually, I'd never thought of that particular implication that, you know, you're not just abandoning another. I mean, that's actually one of the things that we are warned against that when the end of the world comes, vast majority of people will start to basically be like, oh, I only care about myself. And they will forget about their loved ones. They will forget about this, that, everything, it'll just be all about, oh my God, how do I save myself. But it's like there will be those few that have faith, that maintain perspective on what's going on, that will be able to remain calm and, you know, be the metaphor is like everyone else will be in scorching heat, whereas the righteous will find the shade, you know? Yeah. And so it's sort of like, you know, but it's not like, it's not like a passive thing or not like, oh, you're just accidentally finding the shade. It's like, no, you actively create the shade by having the right attitude, by having the right perspective and understanding and faith around what's going on.

DEBORAH: Wow, that's so beautiful. That is so beautiful. And I guess that's another thing, like, you know, okay, it's going to be a little bit of a left-hand turn, but it's what it brought up for me is that if you can see the beauty in other people, like somebody who has really good self worth can see the magnificence in everybody.

SAMIA: Yes.

DEBORAH: Who needs self worth, can't see. And they're afraid of people or they hate people, but it's because they don't understand their own value. And so what would the world look like if we all had self worth? And I came to you and I gave you the biggest hug because I saw your magnificence. I mean, anybody going down the street. But instead we're suspicious and we're just feeling so scared because we don't really claim or own the amount of love that we have.

SAMIA: Yeah.

DEBORAH: In us and how we could change, like literally overnight, we could change the world if that transpired.

SAMIA: That is so true. Now you just made me think about one of the very core Hindu teachings. It's not that it's not there in other traditions, but there's something, you know, like every tradition has its own sort of way of expressing things.

DEBORAH: Yes.

SAMIA: You understand things more clearly when expressed in a certain way. Like my Hindu friend, I remember one of my Hindu friends, actually it was the very first time I met her and you know, it was in an interfaith gathering. And so she was talking about what it means, like what is the essence of her faith and belief as a Hindu. And she was like, you know, it is that I recognize that I am a spark of the divine. And when I recognize the spark of the divine in myself, then I recognize the spark of the divine in every other being. And when I recognize the spark of the divine in every other being, then it just, it just, there's no question then of hating someone else or wishing them ill or doing anything that would hurt someone else, because you see the spark of the divine in them, just as you recognize the spark of the divine in yourself. And there's no way you can have ill will towards the spark of the divine.

DEBORAH: Yeah. And I want to take that even one step further. That is so true. And I want to take that one step further in the way that everybody has a different perspective of people, they get a different slice. And if, let's say, you're in a really bad mood, or I am, for that matter, anybody is, and I hook onto that. You're rude to me. You're rude to me. And so I take that and I take my perception and I overlay that on who you are. Or the opposite. You know, no matter what you are, I see the spark. I see the light of who you are. Either one of those could put another person in prison for the rest of their lives. Because if everybody's seeing you from the perspective of what you're not and you believe that, then it becomes a place where you feel very aggressive. Right? I mean, you feel very frightened. But if other people see you in another way, I'll give you an example. I've had a bunch of health challenges in my life, serious ones, lots of trauma. And there have been friends who said, Deborah, you have such a dark cloud around you. And you know what would happen to me? I'd shrink, and I wouldn't want to show up. And I was embarrassed, and I felt shame. And then there were other people who were like, no matter what I showed up with, they gave me a hug. They saw me, and that little spark inside me was like this little, you know, fairy or something that was growing bigger and bigger. And the love. You know how they say love heals? The love. Just that they saw me in the midst of what I was going through. So in lifetimes, we're like your mother. We're gonna swing back to her. You go through so much in a lifetime, and we have different aspects. Maybe we're happy, maybe we're sad. Maybe we're this, you know, that's inconsistent. That goes like this. But our soul, our spark, whatever you want to call it, it's magnificent. And if we can hold on to that, that's where our self worth will soar. Now listen, I'm a grandmother, and even though I am the founder of the Self Worth Initiative and have done so much to inspire thousands of kids and families and now going to be doing even more with adults, I still struggle with this. And they always say, you teach what you need to learn, you teach what you need to know. And when I was young, it was all about self esteem. It's like, look at me now. Look at me now. Look what I did. Look at what I've accomplished. Because that made me feel important or feel like I counted, but I'm really working on shifting it to, wow, I have so much love to give and I want to impart as much as I can while I'm here.

SAMIA: Yeah.

DEBORAH: And it feels different.

SAMIA: Yeah. What is love to you? Like, what is the essence of love? How do we live love? What is it all about?

DEBORAH: Wow, that's a profound question. What is love? Well, love is an energetic force. That's what I was talking about before. It sees through perception. I had a friend. I'm gonna, once again, I'm gonna go a little bit to the left, but I'm coming back. I had a friend whose father passed. She was not close to her father at all. In fact, he was very, very rough, maybe even abusive. And she said when he died, when he passed, when he went into transition, his person, she said his personality was out of the way and all she could feel was his soul and she fell in love with him. So maybe love at a very profound level is when you can remove the personality, whatever that might look like, and see into ourselves. It's almost like seeing the soul. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's what love really is. It's going beyond any personality traits. Any. What is it called, you know, when you have those. I can't think of the word. It starts with an I, but, you know, idiosyncrasies. Idiosyncrasies. You know, you don't care about idiosyncrasies. You don't care if somebody is homeless and on the street. And maybe they, you know, maybe they can't take a bath. You don't care about any of that thing. You don't care about what you see with your eyes. It's almost like you see with your heart, you smile with your heart, you feel with your heart. Because the heart is the thing, you know, that's the center of our being. Yeah.

SAMIA: Now, you made me think about, like, another sort of very common teaching in, like, the Indian.

DEBORAH: I love this. I love this. So much fun. You're just bringing everything in. I love this. I want to hear.

SAMIA: You know, it's when we are dealing with difficult people because, you know, our Indian, Pakistani culture. It's a collectivistic culture, you know, meaning, like there's a lot of value to maintaining cohesiveness of the community, of the family. And so if you're really committed to maintaining that cohesiveness and so forth, then it's like what happens when difficulties arise in terms of the relationships, when there's people who are difficult, let's say, to deal with.

DEBORAH: Yes.

SAMIA: How do you think about them? How do you relate to them? How do you behave towards them and with them so that, you know, you can maintain the harmony and the cohesiveness of the community and the group and the family? And so one of the very common things that we are taught to do is they say, okay, you know, yes, this person speaks harshly, but look at their heart. Their heart is good, they're good hearted. So it's like constantly we are being taught to sort of go below the surface of their behavior and consider their heart. And when you look at the person's heart, it's like, does anyone have a bad heart?

DEBORAH: Oh, I love that T-shirt that you start. Does anybody have a better. With somebody who, somebody with a weak heart might say, but that's beautiful.

SAMIA: It's sort of like sometimes, you know, we close off our heart, we wall it inside some defense mechanism type of walls. But it's like if you can get through those walls that we sometimes put around our hearts, you get to the heart. The heart itself is soft and it's loving and it's full of light and caring. And so it's like, go beneath the surface. Look at the person's heart, consider their heart. They have a good heart. And so for the sake of the heart and what you can experience of their good heart, you be more patient with their surface level behavior.

DEBORAH: That is so. And you know, I, the. So here, picture this, picture this. I'm waiting in a line to get some coffee and the barista, he has long hair, tats, and he has earrings, the big ones, you know, those, I don't know what they're called, but the big ones. And he's taking the coffee and he's slamming it down. And the people, there's a line and the people are kind of like going like this. And I'm getting up there, I'm going to get up there and I have to, at first I'm like, oh my goodness, he's so rude. I should tell him that he's rude or whatever to protect all these other poor, innocent people that are in line. But instead, I've learned about the heart. So I get up to him just to test it out, and I say, you seem very upset. Are you okay? And he's like, you know, I don't know if I should look at you. Okay, I'll look at you. Oh, I'm connecting. No, I'm not okay. My mother's in the hospital, and I don't know if she's going to make it. So I go and I get a card. I sign it and give it to him. A week later, I come in and he sees me and he has. I mean, like, in my imagination, if it was a movie, he would have put whipped cream on the coffee and put all kinds of sparkles because his smile to me was so beautific. And I think you're, you know, you've given me an idea today, which is such a gift. I think all of us need to imagine with our imagination that we're polishing people's hearts, because if we went around like that, potentially, it wouldn't be. No matter what anybody did, we could just go, you might not know it. And through that, we might be able to see their beauty. And, you know, otherwise. Now, I'm not saying, though, that if somebody's being abused physically, I mean, there are people that you have to move away from. They might have a beautiful heart. But I would never advocate. You know, one of the things, one of the biggest things with Paisley and all the things that I'm doing is take your power back and not give it away. So there is a balance. It's not to be a doormat. It's not to be where you have people take advantage of you. But it's also, even if it's somebody like that, move away because you love yourself enough not to be taken advantage of or hurt.

SAMIA: Yeah. And there's even an element of loving the other person in terms of moving away from them in that kind of context, because, you know, when someone is engaging in abusive behavior and if you are not able to respond to it in a way that, number one, you are not getting yourself damaged, and number two, that their behavior or attitude in some ways doesn't change or doesn't improve. So meaning, like, basically, it's sort of beyond your capacity in the moment to affect positive change in the relationship and in the circumstances, then sort of move away from them. And in that there's both an aspect of self love, but also love for the other. Because if you stay in the relationship and you continue to enable them by staying in the relationship to continue that bad abusive behavior, they're also hurting themselves by engaging in that behavior. You know, it reminds me of the saying, I think it was Martin Luther King or was it Nelson Mandela or was it Gandhi? I can't remember. It was one of these people who, you know, one of our champions of living nonviolence. I think this might have been Nelson Mandela. The quote I'm particularly thinking about where he said, it's not just the prisoner that needs to be freed, but also the prison guard that needs to be freed.

DEBORAH: Oh, whoa. You know, beautiful is that. How beautiful is that? Yes, but in the context that we're looking at this, that's even more deep because I can feel it right now. You know, sometimes words are words. But you're absolutely. The way that you described it was beautiful because it's not only your self worth where you're saying, I need to move over here, but you're also saying, you know, that you're freeing that other person because their soul will be damaged by what they're doing. And it's sort of like you're. It's a teaching moment for them, too.

SAMIA: It's sort of like if you cannot influence them to change their behavior, then by at least removing yourself as the object of abuse, you are at, at least to some extent just a. You're giving them some time and space and removing some of their ability to continue with that abusive behavior, at least. You know, and so there's. It's like you, if one could just. I mean, we cannot control other people's behavior. We cannot force anyone else to change. And. But it's like if you stay in the relationship, in the abusive relationship, and again, you're getting hurt yourself and that person's continuing to behave in ways that is hurting their own soul, then it's sort of like, you know, that prisoner and prison guard, you're like, enabling that bad dynamic to continue for both of you. And by removing yourself from the situation, you're like, at least I'm not going to enable that bad situation to continue. At least I'm not going to be the one who's going to enable that bad abusive behavior to continue. And maybe later, at a later time, you can come back and try to do something more. But like, in the moment, if that's the best you can do to prevent the abuse from happening, then that's what you do in that moment, prevent the abuse from happening. You just move yourself out of there.

DEBORAH: And I had never thought of it the way that you're saying. And I think that that's really, really brilliant. Because in a way, talk about self worth. You have enough self worth, but you're also giving them a gift. Because if they perpetuate that violence or whatever it is on you and you stay there, like, thinking, I can help them, I can make it okay, and you're engaging in that, in essence, like you said, they're actually damaging their soul. So by walking away, you're loving yourself and you're loving them.

SAMIA: Yes.

DEBORAH: Powerful.

SAMIA: Yes. Because, you know, it's like sometimes it's so actually, one of the things that I've. Before I became my happiness expert, happiness coaching training work that I do now, I actually was working on a crisis hotline for domestic violence. And so I've worked with so many survivors of domestic violence. And you see this. It's like part of the problem that when you stay in the abusive relationship, the pattern of abuse, it intensifies and becomes worse over time. And it's like, not only are you suffering more, but that person is getting more and more caught up in that mindset and that kind of. Because they're learning. It's like, you know, people are playing a game of power and control, by which I mean, that's at least one way to understand. Like, someone who's being abusive is like, they are on mission to control you as much as they can, to exercise power over you as much as they can. And they're constantly testing your boundaries to see how much they can get away with. And the more you let them get away with by tolerating the abuse by, you know, like, in the mind of the abuser, it's like, okay, how do I get what I want? And if it's by creating drama, if it's by shouting and screaming and then you give me what I want, then I've learned the lesson that shouting and screaming works. And so I'm going to keep doing it. I'm going to do it even more intensely because it's helping me get what I want. And then it's like the same thing. It's like at some point they'll try physical violence and if that gets them what they want because you get scared and you're like, oh, my gosh, okay, I'm gonna give you what you want because you physically assaulted me. Then they learn the lesson. Oh, so physical violence works. So let's keep doing more, you know. And so it's sort of like this crazy thing where, you know, it's like you have to basically, I mean, if you're going to break the cycle of violence, you have to break that. They have to stop seeing the results of being violent when the violence stops getting them the results that they are looking for. I mean, that's the only thing that can possibly like motivate them to stop that behavior.

DEBORAH: Yes. And I think that once again, can I swing back to self worth here again? Nobody deserves to be treated like anything other than a divine creature.

SAMIA: Yeah, nobody.

DEBORAH: And I think that we, you know, interestingly enough, and let's see if you agree with this. Sometimes it's the sweetest people in the world who get abused. It's the ones who really want to help and it's the ones who really. It's like they keep it. It's almost like their mind will not register. How can this be somebody I love, a good person, and they're treat. I must be bad. See, something must be wrong with me. I'm feeling shame. And you become so small and you shrink so much and you feel like you are powerless. I promise you, I promise you that you have. All your listeners have so much power. Please listen to me. Take it back. I know it's scary. I know it's scary, but listen to what we're saying because I think that what you shared is so profound and so well put that this is kind of like you start out with a game, but it is, it's like an energy. What I was hearing is it's like an energy entanglement. And that once that person has a hold of you, it's almost like you've got nowhere to go because you're so low that it's sort of like you don't even have the legs under you to walk away.

SAMIA: Or that's how you can feel that. I don't think that's the reality.

DEBORAH: Right, right.

SAMIA: That's because like you were saying, we have the power, but we can feel powerless because we believe what that other person is trying to make us believe. Because with abuse, it's like, you know, the other person will never take true responsibility for their behavior. It's like even when they apologize, you know, this is such a classic thing where they'll be like, oh, I'm so sorry baby, I did this to you or did that to you. But you made me so mad. If you hadn't done this, you hadn't done that, I wouldn't have gotten so mad. And so, you know, on the one hand it's like, oh, I'm so sorry, but on the other hand, laying all the blame on you. And when you keep being subjected to this kind of behavior, unless you have that self worth like so firmly rooted inside of you and unless you're like really watchful and aware of what that other person is doing and how it may be impacting you, you know, you can begin to just believe what they're saying and internalize the blame. And sometimes it's like you're just, and you're not even doing it consciously. It's just that you're trying to avoid the drama, you're trying to avoid the pain, you're trying to avoid the fighting and so forth. So you're just like, okay, I'm going to do everything I can to help you stay calm. And so I'm going to try and not make you angry. If this is something that made you angry, then I'm going to try and not do that. And so, you know, you take the responsibility on yourself, but you don't realize that actually it never was your responsibility. How they behave and how they think and how they feel, it's all how they think and feel and act is all on them.

DEBORAH: And you know, the other thing is, I love this quote that somebody gave me and what they said is, you know, follow this track with me because I'm really going somewhere important right now. Love is everything that doesn’t look like love in order to be healed. So let's go with this for a second. Yeah, let's say you have a father who tells you you're nothing, a mother who hits you, whatever it might be. Something happens as a child and you feel like you deserve whatever's coming to you. When you have somebody abusive, listen to me. Love brings up everything that doesn’t look like love in order to be healed. So let's say this comes up and you as a child were told you're no good, it's up to be healed. And guess what that means. Healing means whole. It doesn’t mean only positive. It doesn’t mean, you know, it means everything. You take your whole self and you walk out that door because that's the healing that love provided you. Because you're going to say to yourself, never again. And you're going to go towards people who have wide open arms and know how to love you well. And I promise you, I promise you, it might be the scariest thing that you've ever done, but it's there for your good. To finally realize that nobody deserves to be treated like anything other than a gorgeous human being.

SAMIA: Yeah. Because that's what we are. I mean, even now, you made me think about that saying about those who are hardest to love, needed the most.

DEBORAH: Yeah. Yes. And that's the truth. But sometimes we get confused of what love means exactly. Like, okay, let me stay with you, massage your feet and get you your wine or do whatever you do. No, that first you need to love yourself. And you need to say, you know, you can love them for a fart. You can pray for them. Because we don't have the capability a lot of times to be able to affect that change.

SAMIA: Yeah.

DEBORAH: Yeah.

SAMIA: It's like going back to that idea of both the prisoner and the guard needs to be freed. Because it's like when you think, okay, I'm going to stay and I'm going to continue to take this even though things are not improving, my best efforts to keep them calm, to make them see the error of their ways, to improve their behavior. It's been years, maybe I've been trying, trying, trying, and it's not been working. It's getting worse. And you think, no, but I am going to continue to stay because it's going. I'm going to try and help them. They're going to improve. Like, at that point in time, it's like you're sort of like, not basing your expectations and hopes on reality, you know, and so it's sort of like, no, change tactics, change strategy, do something different to both help yourself and this other person. And so a lot of it, it's, you know, about, okay, what's the best that I can do here to affect change? And it's sort of like, with it, it makes me think about, you know, stories of the prophets, like the prophet Muhammad in particular. Right now I'm thinking about how, you know, when he first started preaching about Islam and, you know, all of that, he was persecuted. Like, people thought he was crazy. People thought he was really dangerous because he was challenging the status quo and the power structures that were there because, you know, it was a very classist society. There was slavery, there was racism, there was sexism. And he was challenging all of that and talking about, oh, we're all divine sparks. We all, you know, deserve to be treated equally and loved and respected and all of that. And so he was a serious threat to the power structures and the status quo and stuff. And so people, like, literally even tried to kill him. And at some point, he had to literally run away to another town. But he came back. But he came back many years later after he had built up more capacity, even more strength, even more, like, just more of everything in, like, so many different levels. Like, he was stronger mentally, emotionally, spiritually, but also physically. And when he had built up that capacity, he came back. And when he came back, like, he came back and he was like, you know what? I'm not going to take revenge on the people who tried to kill me and call me crazy and this and that. And he was. I mean, basically, it's just one of the most amazing parts of our history where, you know, it was like, there was, like, this transfer of power that happened in this very peaceful way, and people were just like. I mean, there were so many different reasons why people just were like, okay, we're giving up the fight. We're not going to fight you anymore. And you can. Some. There were, like, a lot of people whose hearts were changed because when he's like, okay, I'm not going to kill you. We're just going to practice forgiveness. We're going to practice patience. A lot of people's hearts were changed, but also, like, because he was in a stronger position. Like, he could actually have physically imprisoned people or even killed people because he had that physical power. Now there were other people who are, like, still internally, they were like, no, we still don't love you. We still hate you. We still think whatever. But because now you're in this position of power, we see the futility of trying to fight you in this moment. And so they surrendered. And so it's sort of like, ideally we would love to have everyone have changed their hearts, you know, or open their hearts. But sometimes it's that if you are going to prevent an abuser from abusing, like, you just have to be in that stronger position where they realize the futility of, you know, it's like the bully when they meet the bigger bully.

DEBORAH: Yes, yes.

SAMIA: You know.

DEBORAH: Oh, my God, you're right. You're right. You're absolutely correct.

SAMIA: They become like, oh, my God, no, stop, Don't. It's like I was watching this. This drama on tv. What's it called? Jack Ryan or something on Amazon. And this was a theme that I kept noticing in that drama where there would be, like, this goo like gangster or something that you know, with the like scaring people into doing this and that. But then turned out there was a bigger gangster who was controlling them and turns out there was an even bigger gangster who was controlling that mid level gangster. And before the. So at each level it's like, here's this person who's going around like hurting people, committing violence, even killing people and being all like, oh, I'm the big, big strong person here. But the moment they were in front of the bigger, bigger gangster, they were like, hurt me. You know, and it was like, oh my God. And sometimes that's what you need. Need is, you know, to. But it doesn't have to be violent power. Violent power. That's what I learned from the Prophet Muhammad is that sometimes it's just, you know, that you have power but you don't have to turn it into violence to be effective. But sometimes that's what you need in order to stop someone from engaging in their abusive, violent behavior is that you have to just stand so strongly in your own power, in your own worth that they're like, oh, there's no use my trying to control them because they're uncontrollable.

DEBORAH: Yeah. And you know, what you brought up for me is why. And this could go on another five hours. But the whole idea of why does love bring up hate? And maybe it's, maybe the bottom line is, is that we all desperately want love and when we feel like we don't have it, that's when we become aggressive. And if we see somebody that has it, that's when we become aggressive. And maybe if we can just like tap into the love and we can get that and really have the self worth then we can walk through anything.

SAMIA: Ah, you just reminded me of this like other teaching that yes, we are all want love and everything that we're doing is like when we are trying to receive love or get the love you desire, but we're doing it in a way that's hurting other people. It's sort of like it, it's sort of like actually what's going on is an aspect of being loved and feeling love is to feel free and to feel, to feel, you know, like. Yeah, it's like the freedom. Freedom in terms of like you get to be who you are and you get to do what you want, what you love, what you care about. So there's a sense of like power that you know, comes with that. But and so it's sort of like you're really. So when you're Trying to like exercise power and control over, over others. What you really want is like, you want to feel powerful yourself, you want to feel free yourself. And you're, you're not feeling that. And so you're trying to, trying to feel that. But it's like a misguided. Because it's sort of like that. It's sort of like you're going for self esteem and you think by going for self esteem you're going to get self worth. But like, it's just, it's that. It's like instead of going inward and finding your power within, you're trying to get power or feel more powerful by controlling others.

DEBORAH: Ah, so brilliant. That was a big sign. We're both like, I think we've got it. I love it. Every time I say something, you're like, and this person and that person. Oh my gosh, you're a walking encyclopedia. That is like wonderful to really bring the illustrations from different cultures in such a way that everybody can understand it, you know, Just magnificent.

SAMIA: Oh, thank you, Deborah. I know you are so stimulating for me to talk to you, making me think about things and in ways that I have sometimes thought and made those connections. So I'm so grateful that we have had this time to communicate and you're right, we could keep going. And we should probably wrap up for today. Do you have any last thoughts you would love to share?

DEBORAH: Yes, I would. Especially because we're talking about abuse. It seems like we got, you know, we started out at self esteem and self worth and then we really got into the human dynamic of what love you could look like and why we give away our power. And now we're like, then we moved into the abuse aspect and how, you know, how crushing that can be. So any of your listeners, please, even if nobody knows and you've kept it a secret and you feel like you're all alone. Hear us now, two women of two different cultures that are speaking the same language. The language of love. It's so powerful. Take your power back, know who you are, walk out the door and, and give that person the key to their own freedom.

SAMIA: Yeah. Oh, thank you, Debra, for my last reminder. I will just remind our audience, please make sure you check the show notes because we will be dropping Deborah's links in there so you can connect with her. Continue to learn with her and get the help and support you need. And you know what? I will also make sure we drop in some links where you. For anyone who may be stuck in an abusive relationship, there are different resources, organizations where you can get help. So I'll make sure to include some of those links as well. And until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy… :)