Turning Fear into a Superpower: How to Beat Social Anxiety & Speak with Confidence

Turning Fear into a Superpower:
How to Beat Social Anxiety & Speak with Confidence!
Geoffrey (Jef) Huck & Samia Bano

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

Here's the audio version of this episode:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Full Video Transcript

SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Dzień Dobry! It's really, really good to be with you again. And I know you'll be so happy you have joined us today because we have a very, very wonderful guest with us, and it's Jef, who is a public speaking and soft skills coach. Welcome, Jef…

JEF: Hello. Hello, Samia. Bonjour. I'm very happy to be here. Hello to everyone who's listening.

SAMIA: Yay! And Jef, please tell us more about who you are and what you do.

JEF: All right. My name is Jef, Geoffrey Huck in French. Because I'm coming from France, my background is a little bit unusual. I started by tech. I was passionate about computers since I was very, very, very young. I spent all my nights and holidays and evenings and everything behind the computer. And I became a software engineer, which is the normal path for this type of passion. Now the problem is that as many of my colleagues, my big struggle was communication. I was shy. I used to have a very strong strain of social anxiety. So to tell you, Samia, I remember sometimes waiting in front of the door of my apartment before going out because I knew that my neighbor was in the corridor. So it was very hard. Fortunately or unfortunately, I was a freelancer so I could work from home. I had that freedom. But obviously it made me avoid even more social situations. So the problem became worse and worse and worse until it was completely unlivable. I had dreams. I wanted to do great things. But I realized that if you want to do big things in this world, usually or all the time, being alone will not make it. It's always with other people that you can do great things. And so now I think I'm fortunate that it was so hard because that was my wake up call. So my life was a mess. I felt blocked personally, I felt blocked in my career. Everything that I could have done to improve my situation involved going out. At least networking, meeting people, but also talking on stage, giving conferences about what I do. But that wasn't at all something that seemed possible at that time. So I feel fortunate now to have this because this wake up call made me do everything that I was scared. So I started about 10 years ago, started to talk to people, travel alone with a backpack, organizing events, networking, talking to people in the street. Then I started to do public speaking, poetry, theater, animation in bars, animation of weddings. And I became, surprise, the president of Toastmasters Club. So for those who don't know, Toastmasters is an international organization with clubs all around the world, in almost all medium sized cities, where you can learn public speaking and leadership. So I became president of this club and I realized that people started to ask me for advice. And so one after another I thought that maybe tech isn't so much for you anymore because now that you overcame those issues and you know how to do it, you can help other people who struggle where you used to struggle. So that's my bio.

SAMIA: I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, you just shared so much with us that I would love to dig into with you. And you know, just to say that I can relate with a lot of the struggles that you were describing and I know a lot of our listeners can. I mean, we know public speaking is one of the top fears that people have. And I think what you also realized, I mean, it's interesting that, you know, like I know many people who socially seem to do just fine, but they're afraid of public speaking. But in your case, you also had the social anxiety and that was actually something that I experienced also. Like I was socially challenged and that also made me not want to engage in public speaking or actually speaking at all. Like I was really isolated and alone as well and really struggled to make friends certainly as a teenager. So I can relate to a lot of what you were sharing in terms of struggles. So you gave us some hints of how you started to help yourself get better. But tell me more about it. Because when you have so much anxiety and so much fear, not just of public speaking itself, but also of that social interaction aspect of things, how do you even really, really begin to adapt, make yourself do something to change?

JEF: Yes. So that's a very good question. And obviously people need, you need to have a moment where you have this, I said wake up call where it's enough. You realize that your current limitations are dictating your possibilities in life. And I believe that there needs to be a feeling of this is enough. Most of the people that I met who overcame it had this moment, where it's enough. Conversely, I met many people who, it's okay, they can live their life with it and then they never tackle this problem because it's optional for them. They know that it could make their life better. But since they don't have this, they're not enough. They're not fed up. They don't necessarily do the step. And those people, usually, they need to be motivated a little bit to do the step and to see what it is. Samia, it's very interesting that you said that some people have social anxiety that covers everything from talking to neighbors to public speaking.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: And other people only have it for certain events that are considered high stakes. So for example, going on stage or talking to people who could change their lives.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: Many people would tell you, I'm not shy at all, I can talk to everyone. But when you dig a little bit, why are they avoiding the hard conversation with their boss for two or 10 years, I've seen it. And same for public speaking. You could find people who are confident when they are speaking in front of the people who are familiar. So that's typically a manager or even a CEO of a company who's having no problem to talk to the people inside the company because they know everyone or they already have a certain status in the company so they already feel respected. But whenever they go and talk in front of an other audience, they completely freeze.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: So it's all a matter of degree, I would say. And that's why I say that people who face social anxiety when they talk to their neighbors, once they overcome it, will see how lucky they were. I know this sounds very counterintuitive, but the thing is that no matter what the perceived degree is, the sensation that you have to overcome is always the same. So to give you an example, if you struggle to talk to your neighbor, going to your neighbor and talking to your neighbor will already train you to talk on stage or to talk to the CEO of your company, because the sensation will be the same. And so people who have social anxiety for very mundane situations, they actually have so many opportunities to train again and again and again. And when the stakes are big, when they're finally in this big event, talking to the CEO who could change their life, or giving this TED Talk or giving this life changing presentation, they have so many training of facing their fears again and again and again that they need it. So that's where it becomes a superpower, even if at the beginning it seems to be a liability.

SAMIA: Oh, I love that perspective. And you know, I can actually just see that happening in my life as well. Because I mean, I would say like, things for me started to change when I entered college and I was actually new to America at that time. My family had moved relatively recently to America and I started college over here. And it was a very big change for me and my family in many ways. And one of the things about starting college in America was, you know, the culture of this expectation that I, as an 18, almost 19 year old, actually by that time I was already 19, that I would be completely independent and I would manage everything on my own. So like I, for example, when it was time for me to get admission into college, because, you know, I was so not used to being independent and moving around on my own and interacting with people, my dad actually went with me to the college admissions office. And of course he was very used to taking the lead and doing all the talking on my behalf and I would just stand behind him. But when we went to this college admissions office, they basically wouldn't talk to my dad. They kept like looking at me and wanting me to answer the questions directly. And they make you go through this whole process where it's basically only you can go. I mean, if I was like disabled in some way and I had to have like a companion to aid me in, you know, with my disability restrictions, maybe then they would allow a companion, but otherwise only the student can go. And so then I had to like start navigating, you know, all of these situations. And it was a bit tough at first, but like you said, like slowly, slowly, the more you put yourself in those situations, the more you practice. And I mean, for me, I just feel like so grateful because I just found so many people who were so kind that, you know, somehow it worked out.

JEF: Yeah, usually that's what we find. People were kind. I rarely tried to do something and I was rejected in a very, you know, very hard way. Usually people just try to help if you do the first step.

SAMIA: Yeah. If people see you struggling. And I think for me also, like as a girl and as a relatively young looking person, I think people were also inclined to be kind. And also at that time I very much looked like I was a foreigner because I still dressed in, you know, the traditional Indian, Pakistani clothes and stuff like that. So I think all of those factors sort of inclined people to be even more generous with me in terms of being willing to give me a lot of leeway and just be kind of gentle with me.

JEF: Yeah. And it probably has been also your attitude and body language. You might not have noticed what you were doing. But there are different types of approach. When you approach someone, many people focus on what they say and then usually they think it's important and they overthink. And if they don't find something smart or nice, they don't interact. But that's all overthinking. You don't need to have specific words. In fact, the approach that I use to talk to people I don't know is “hey.” Works with everyone. But to go back to the body language. Yeah, just “hey.” But that's the important part, it's not “hey.” It's “hey,” open... Because I've seen people going to strangers and talking to them and they looked closed, like, you know, arms crossed, hands in the pocket, looking on the floor or hiding the hands. Those are all signs of what can be a potential threat. And usually if you go to people and you have your hands visible, it's like a very, very old, you could say very old evolutionary reflex. If you have your body open, if you look at the person in the eyes, if your hands are visible, even if you hesitate a little bit. You know, if I come to you and I talk extremely confidently and you were not expecting at all that I talk to you, that can seem weird.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: But if I go to you and I say, hello, excuse me, I have a question. Can you help me? Works a lot better. So maybe it was the approach that you were using that made you see that people were reacting in a very nice way.

SAMIA: Yeah, you know, I had not really thought very much about what my body language might have been like. I actually used to be not very aware of my body at all. So I won't try to comment on that right now. But yeah, in terms of my approach, generally, I would approach other people when I had to approach them because I needed help. Because like you said, if it was optional, then I would avoid, like, I would be like, okay, reading all the instructions and reading all the signs and notices so I could figure things out on my own. But when I couldn't, then I had to ask for help. So then I'd be like, excuse me, please, can you help me?

JEF: So that's a very, very good point. And in fact, I see many people who became speakers, but because they had to, because they were asked to do it. Or think about people in meetings who only talked when they're asked their opinion, or people who go to networking events and they wait for other people to talk to them. Now this approach works because obviously if you don't have the choice, you do it. There is no question about it. But the problem with this approach—if you always do things when you are forced to do them—you don't really develop this enthusiasm, this, you know, this, let's say a state in your body, a feeling of, I want to do that. I want to talk to them. I want to go on stage. This is something that you can only develop if you make the step, if you initiate, if you go there without being forced, if you talk when no one asks for your opinion, if you talk to someone without the other person expecting it, that's where you develop this muscle of willingness. So that's really important, because if you're always reacting, you will most likely never really like it.

SAMIA: That is a very, very, very important distinction that you have just drawn. You know, it's interesting, like, even now that, you know, I'm actually really comfortable speaking and I don't feel much anxiety or—it's very, very manageable for me.

But, you know, even now, I have to be in the right context to do it with comfort and confidence. Because, like, I remember one time, and it's not very long ago, but we needed to go and distribute flyers to promote an event that we were going to be doing. And I was like, I have to really put myself in that mindset of, you know, like, talking to people and being, you know, like, approaching people and stuff. Once I put myself in the mindset, I can do it no problem. But it takes me some motivating myself and putting myself in that mindset even now to want to do it. So, like, in my case, because I kind of had to do this anyway, I was like, okay... To make it easier for myself, I asked a friend to come with me. She's very enthusiastic. She doesn't have any problems at all. So when we first started doing this, I actually let her just take the lead and approach the people. And then we were doing it for a while. So after a while, I was like, okay, okay, I'm getting in the mood. I'm getting in the vibe. And so then I started to slowly, slowly also be like, okay, I can do this. Let's do this again. And once I started doing, you know, it was okay. But, yeah, that was just one example. And then even in social situations now, you're right. I don't always have the enthusiasm of I want to do this. Like, sometimes I have to, you know, do some work on myself to make myself want to do it. Otherwise, I have a tendency to just be like, okay, I'm gonna go back to my old habits of just sitting in a corner, and if someone comes and approaches me, that's okay... Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. But I'm, I feel like I'm getting. No, no, you're right. You're right. Okay. This is something I will pay more attention to moving forward.

JEF: So very courageous. I think that you share this on the podcast. It requires a lot of courage. I'd say it's the beginning. Usually it's the hard part. When you're a bit cold and you want to go to this state of. I'm excited. I really want to do that. That's the hardest... It's always the hardest. It's the 0 to 1. Then 1 to 2 is a bit easier. And 9 to 10, it's like, it can be just amazing because you. That's what you do.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: So that there are techniques to make it a little bit easier, but the trick is that I will not share them because there's a reason to. Techniques to make it a little bit easier are great when you already know how to do it when it's hard because there are no techniques that work all the time. If I give you a technique now that will help you to talk to someone that you don't know, it will work when you talk in the street. It will work when you talk in grocery store. But then when you will be at the event that might change your life, it will not work. And then you will go back to your hotel because you thought it was too hard. I cannot do it. So rather than give you a technique to reduce this difficulty, I prefer to tell you that the source of confidence is to do something that's scary. Every time you do something that's scary, your confidence gain one level every time. And the trick is, it doesn't matter at all how difficult it is. If it's a little bit scared, it counts. You get a little bit more confident. So it's actually better strategically if you want to be someone confident and courageous, to always find the things that are just a little bit scared, because then you do them, and then you become a little bit more confident, and then you have more things that seems to be possible, and somehow you just climb the stairs of confidence step by step. And until you can do things that you thought would be completely, completely impossible from the start, but it's really about facing the fear because you cannot get confident. If you find a way to remove anxiety, that's a trap. It's a trap. You will make it a bit easier now, but over the long term, you will not grow, you will not become more courageous, and you will be blocked. And at that time, when you will be blocked, you will think, maybe it's because you're not good enough. And many people are blocked because they don't fear normal or situations that they consider to be relatively safe. They don't fear anything. But then whenever there is something higher stakes, they think that if I feel the fear now, it's because it's too much, it's because I'm not ready for it, it's because I might not be enough. So very important to do this is find. And it's, you told me, how do you begin... That's it. Find the situation that are a little bit scary, but not too much, and do them. And now I will still give you a little trick. Whenever you feel this anxiety in your body, open your body. The posture is very important. You open and you press amply. Usually people who are stressed, they reduce their breathing. They make their body very small. But if you open it and you look straight and you press amply, that's gonna make it better. But if you're just starting out, try not to use it.

SAMIA: Yes. Yeah. So it's sort of like you have to watch yourself and be like, okay, what am I really... What stresses me out? Like, what scares me a little bit? And because it would be different for everyone. And so then challenge yourself in the specific context. I remember reading a book. It just triggered a memory for me. And it was like giving suggestions for different kinds of things, you know, a person could do to go challenge themselves to face their fears and discomfort. And I remember one of the exercises they suggested was like, you go to a crowded place, like, crowded. We mean a place where a fair number of people are walking past, like in a mall or, you know, something like that. And you just sit down on the floor and not explain to anyone why you just sat down on the floor. And then after maybe a minute or whatever, you just get up and you walk, walk again. And you don't have to explain to anyone why you have done this. And for some people, you know, that can be like, wow, that's so weird, strange. What will people think? No, that would be. No, no, no, no, I can't do something like that. That's crazy. But that's a point is, like, you do something that you think is scary or, you know, that you wouldn't normally do because you're afraid of what people would think and so forth... 

JEF: Yeah. Oh, yeah. All those challenges are extremely powerful. But again, if it feels completely... If it feels too hard, then maybe that's not the first step. So... But doing those challenges is really something that can change your life if you do it progressively, step by step and remember that... And then you will notice how much we are somehow self centered. Because if you go to the mall and before you lie on the floor, just look at the people around you and choose one person. And then think for sometimes about how you would react if you would see this person doing this challenge right now.

SAMIA: Okay…

JEF: So you imagine this person is now lying on the floor and what do you think of this person?

SAMIA: Yeah, I mean, I might wonder, depending on like their expression and overall body language as they were like sitting or lying on the floor, I mean, might be like, oh, are they okay, there's something wrong with them. But if they, if their body language look like they weren't hurt or something, they'd be like, I don't know that. What's that person doing? But I probably wouldn't do anything about it. Like I would just…

JEF: So you see, right? You see, Samia, you didn't tell me. I would think that we should definitely put them into jail because they obviously very dangerous. They're obviously completely crazy and they shouldn't be allowed to be in the street or in the mall. So I didn't hear you saying any of that. But when you do it in situation, then you realize that it's not a big deal.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: And especially if you knew that this person is actually doing a challenge to face their fear, you might start to think that, wow, this person is brave.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: Because they do something completely optional. They will not gain anything because they want to face their fear and they want to be, to grow to be more confident. So it's actually very, very nice if you sit this way.

SAMIA: Yeah, that's true, that's true. Yeah, I like that. I like that. Huh... So tell me a little bit more. You mentioned, you know, about people like, you know, you can find yourself in a situation where until you get to something that's very high stakes for you, you do okay. But when you're in that high stakes situation, then you begin to get these feelings of, oh, I'm not ready, maybe I'm not good enough. Is that sort of like the imposter syndrome? And like what are we really... What's really going on there? I mean it's, I mean obviously there's a cons... I mean it's just. Yeah. Tell me more about that.

JEF: Yes. So if I understand correctly, it's about when you are in a high stakes situation and then suddenly you feel that maybe you're not, maybe you are an imposter. Maybe you're not good enough to do that.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: So that's something that can appear only if you, it's something that you never did before. So it's something new. Something new. And then you would like to be confident about something that you never did before.

SAMIA: Okay. Okay.

JEF: Which, if you where, would be a little bit suspicious, right? Because how can you be confident that you can do something that you never did before? There's always a chance that you fail. So if you try to force yourself to feel confident about it, maybe it's not the right path. Because you cannot try to convince yourself that you can do something that you never did before. There is always slight chance that it doesn't work. You cannot control everything. So the thing that is very important to know is that forcing yourself to feel a certain way doesn't work. So if you really want to feel confident that you can do something before you do it, you're trying to play a game that you can't win. So first it's awareness. It's to understand why. Okay, so there is a reason, there is a reason why I don't feel confident. It's just because I never did it before. It doesn't mean I cannot do it, doesn't mean I can't. It just means that let's give it a shot and see how it goes. So if you realize it's normal, and you realize that you cannot change it, the only thing that left to do is to accept how you feel in your body. To accept it to... I even like to say, even if it might sounds difficult to do when you are really in this situation where you feel bad. But to embrace it can be a very intense feeling in your body. But usually the problem is not the feeling. It's not the sensation. It's not what's in your body, it's how you react to it. I give you an example.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: Samia, can you close your end like this as a fist? And if you're listening to it and you're not driving, if you're in a safe environment, you can do these exercises with us. You close your hand as a fist, and now you will tell yourself, "I will never be able to open this fist. I will never be able to open this end. My end is closed forever. I will never be able to open it and not try to open it. Open it…

SAMIA: It's like I have to, no, I cannot do it…

JEF: So see, you told yourself that you cannot open your end, and when you tried, you opened it. So if you're ever in a situation where you think, I cannot do it. I will never succeed. I will never be able to do that. Just do it. Just do it... And you will see that when you do it, the confidence will come after, but not before. That's the game. You only get the prize after you did the effort. It's not like, okay, I get the benefits, I get the prize, and then I will do that. You know, it's like if you ask someone who's like, "Hey, can you please give me a million dollar now? And after, I will do something very great for you." Only after…

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: That's the game. And when you do it, you will get the confidence. But if you let this imposter syndrome and this feeling stopping you, too bad, because you had a big opportunity to grow. Because those feelings, they show only when it's an opportunity to grow. They don't show when you're brushing your teeth. They don't show when you're taking a shower. You never take a shower thinking, oh, this time I don't think I will be able to do it. No, no, no... It only shows up in hard situations. And these are always opportunities to grow. So once you do it, you will gain the confidence and you will get better.

SAMIA: I really, really appreciate what you're saying about not trying to manipulate. I'm not, I'm using that word. You didn't use that word. But, you know, it's like, oftentimes people, it's like you're trying to do all these different techniques. You try and manipulate yourself to feel confident feeling, you know, different from how you're feeling. So then you can be like, oh, okay, you know, now I can do this. But actually, it's about, let me ex... Instead of trying to trick yourself in those ways. No, let's just accept what you're experiencing. And okay, I actually…

JEF: Yeah. It's your experience.

SAMIA: Yeah. And then you made a distinction between acceptance of how you're feeling and even embracing how you're feeling. How are you distinguishing between acceptance and embracing the feelings?

JEF: Oh, yeah. I like to see embracing as a willingness to feel this way, you know, because if you feel an intense sensation in your body, so, yeah, first reaction is to think, oh, this is bad, this is bad, this is bad. But it's not like pain. You know, pain is something that. It's a lot stronger. But when it's a sensation in your body, who are you to say if it's good or bad? I mean, why do you interpret in this way? Who are you to say that this is not the best experience that you can have now in a certain way, and letting it be in your body and appreciating it as if you really. You really want to feel it completely, you know, you don't want to hide it, you don't want to. That's where what I would make the distinction with embracing is feeling it completely. Yeah. Like really, you know, really, are you trying even trying to appreciate it... Because once you do that. Yeah. It loses its power over you. If you try to appreciate it and you accept and you open your body to receive it as a gift. It's done. It's done…

SAMIA: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. And it makes me also, like, in order to embrace what you're feeling in that kind of context, it's like, you know, all our thoughts are like, feelings are connected to thoughts that we have and which are connected to beliefs that we have. And so what I'm like, as I accept more of my feelings and even embrace them, I'm, you know, I can see that the thoughts and beliefs behind that acceptance and embracing of feelings would probably, would be beliefs or thoughts like, you know, this challenge, like challenges and opportunity for me to learn and grow. That's a good thing. Even if I fail, even if something goes wrong with me trying to do this, it's okay. Failure is not a problem. Like, I just. It's just a learning opportunity for me. You know, thoughts like that, beliefs like that. Like, if anything, I mean, yeah, if I cultivate those thoughts, if I cultivate those beliefs in my life, then it allows me to also have this experience of being able to accept and embrace my feelings.

JEF: If you don't struggle, there is no fight.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: Then you're free... Because the problem is never the feeling itself. It's the fight. It's the fact that you want to make it disappear. And that's what prevents you to do what's important to you. What would really matter. Now, the way you feel is the way you feel. And you didn't choose it. And you... It's not you which decided it, but you decide if it's good or bad. And then there is this thing that is created by your body. And you say, this is bad, but you created it in a. In a way. So why are you doing this? So you said something very, very interesting, Samia. You said, if you fail, if you fail... And this is a trap. There is a big trap here. So I'd like to tell A few words about it.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: If you do something difficult, if you do something scary and you don't get the results that you want, you're brave. You made it. Congratulations. Because the facing the fear, that was the real thing. So it's important that you realize that you did something that was courageous and that you should be satisfied. You should be satisfied…

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: If you do something hard, you face your fears and then you beat yourself up because you didn't get something that's very bad. It's very bad because it will prevent you to do it the next time. What you want is to develop this muscle of doing things that are scary. And so…

SAMIA: Yes, I'm so glad that you brought that up because actually, when I use that language of, you know, if I feel it's still okay, I'm actually, you know, thinking from the perspective of like, when I have this fear thought in my head of like the fear of feeling like if I have that fear, then in terms of responding to that in a way that feels like, okay, like at the first step, just as the first response that feels that honest to me. Sometimes I have to revert to it's okay. Even if I fail, it's okay... But you're right, it's much, much better to not even think of and do not even frame what you're experiencing as a failure because that's a judgment and you don't have to... Why, why judge yourself in that way? You're absolutely right.

JEF: So to add a little more about it, imagine that you're learning to do bicycle. You just remove the little wheels behind. And now your goal is to just go straight.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: But you will never attempt to lift. You know, the to do a wheeling to lift or to make some crazy jumps the first time you do it.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: The way I like to see it is that if there is a reasonable amount of fear in what you do, that's the goal. That's the goal is just to do it so that you start to get some feel of those kinds of situation. And that's the goal. But once you're more comfortable and once the fear isn't very high enough, let's say once you have really access to your brain. Because when the fear is here, it's hard to access what's in your brain. Usually it requires having faced the fear a few times until you are fully aware, fully present. And here you can search for results. Here you can try more things, be a bit more subtle, have more mastery about the process. And here you can start to see how to succeed. But if you're just starting out, it's better to focus on just doing and, and to be happy with yourself, to realize that you were brave because you faced this fear. We live in a long term game. It's a our life... It's a our life... It takes a few weeks or a few months or a few failures to start to know how to grasp things and be more comfortable. That's nothing. It's absolutely nothing. But if you beat yourself up because you tried once and then you abandoned for the rest of your life, it's game over.

SAMIA: Yeah. Yes. Ah, gosh. There's just so much wisdom in what you just said... Yes. I mean, it's our life. What's the point of life anyway other than for us to be constantly learning and growing, you know? And so it's like, that is so. Oh my gosh... Yeah. It's like if it takes us a little while to learn and feel more comfortable and more confident with doing this or that or anything, what's the big deal? What's the big deal?

JEF: And you'll be more effective because the only way to really have a deep knowledge about those processes is to try many times it's to fail many times. And if you don't have it, you will have trouble when the situation is slightly different or you know it will. You will not have this mastery of and this confidence of I can do whatever the situation that comes only once... You, for example, public speaking. It requires, if you always speak on the same stage, you will start to feel confident on this stage only. And then you will talk to another group on another stage. And you will not feel confident.

SAMIA: Yes.

JEF: Or something. Very funny. Sometimes I help people who have social anxiety and who the first exercise or even people who don't really have it. Because I realized that most people fear talking to strangers in the streets. Even people who feel, I'm not shy, they can lead, they can lead a team. They can even do sometimes some public speaking or presentation or sales. But whenever it comes to talking to stranger in the street, it doesn't work. So I like to with those people to do this exercise of let's talk to a few people in the street. And what happens, Samia? They do it. Of course they do it. And after a few people, three, four, then I tell them, did you notice that you only talked to women above 60 or 70 years old? Did you notice that you only talk to grandmas? And then they look at me and say already... So you have to be careful. If you only talk to grandmas, then you will start to be very confident talking to grandmas, but not to other types of people. So variety, variety, talking on many stages to many different audiences and talking to people, especially the types of people that you don't have a lot of experience talking to. This is what creates universal confidence, the ability to talk to everyone in all situations.

SAMIA: I know this is again, you make me think of my own, of my own experiences. I have a tendency, I don't restrict myself just to grandmas, but I generally will only feel most comfortable approaching other women. And for sure, like the more familiar a woman looks like if she is, you know, someone who's of my race and ethnicity, then for sure I feel more comfortable approaching her than, you know, someone who is, who looks different ethnicity. But like, for me, because I've grown up in a very racially and ethnically diverse context, I've moved around a lot. So at least racially and ethnically, I've learned to become comfortable with different people. But gender was still like, continuing to be an issue for me, like, especially when I first came to America. Because my experience before I came to America, I had lived in India and in Pakistan and for a few years in the Middle east. And in all of those countries even, well, not so much in Pakistan we didn't have racial diversity, but in India and the Middle east we had a lot of diversity of culture and race and religions and so forth. I was used to diversity in that context. But gender, I had always grown up in a more gender segregated situation. And so like, for me, like overcoming that barrier was particularly challenging, like to get comfortable approaching men or even like if a man approached me, it immediately made my walls go up and I'm like, why is this person, man approaching me? You know…

JEF: And it's perfectly normal.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: Oh yeah, it's perfectly normal. That the tendency. The brain is wired this way. And if you don't do anything to counter it will just stay this way. Look, this is Samia. This is the reason why in any countries or cities you have the fact that people offer a certain background or country or color, are more together, and then it creates neighborhoods and then it creates tension and then they don't talk to each other. And this is, that's the origin of it. It's just the brain is wired this way. And if people don't make the steps to talk to everyone, no matter how they look.

SAMIA: Yes, you're so right, you're so right about that. You know, I think one of the things... You're so right because now when I think about it from the other perspective of, you know, being a Muslim woman in America, for example, because in America we have these waves of anti Muslim sentiments and people feeling afraid and threatened by Muslims. And so anyone who even looks Muslim, actually, unfortunately, even now most Americans are still not really educated about who Muslims are. And so they will miss... They have a lot of stereotypes. And so like, for example, we have had situations here in America where people who are not Muslim, not Muslim, but they get mistaken for being Muslim, they are targeted with anti Muslim hate speech and hate crimes against them even. And so, you know, because I am recognizably like I fit the stereotype of what a Muslim looks like because I wear a headscarf, I've had to deal with a lot of, you know, people who are not, who are afraid of Muslims and being in that position of okay, how do I navigate this situation so that... Well, I mean, of course I want to increase safety for myself, but also effectiveness in terms of being able to get done what I want to get and have people cooperate with me so that I can live my life.

JEF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, that's really sad. I'm not surprised that you faced issues related to this. And just to give you my point of view, you will probably find it funny because it's completely different. I'm born in a very small village in France. It's very small village, it's called Breitenbach. It's less than a thousand inhabitants and it's far from any big cities. So I grew up in a completely white environment and I would only see Muslims and black people and Asian people on the tv, but never, never in the village. And when I was a little bit older and I went to university, of course I was very shy and didn't talk to many people I didn't know. But when I started this process that I told about of talking to everyone and really it everyone, I noticed that it was a lead. So I started and then I noticed that I could talk to some people around my age or a little bit older, but never, never people who were blacks or never people who were from Asia or were never Muslims. And I noticed, I noticed that the first time it was a little bit harder, of course, because the brain makes a distinction, especially if you, if you grew up in a school where there is just no variety.

SAMIA: Yeah.

JEF: And so I had to do it and no, I love it. No, it's like if you're different, I have actually a higher chance of talking to you if you stand out rather than if you look like everyone around. But that's because I find it very funny. But it was actually hard that the first time to talk to someone who was black. And I deeply, deeply remember the first time where I met to when I talked to a Muslim woman who had this scarf. And it was, I had to overcome something. It wasn't as easy, even if I already started to become more sociable. So from my point of view. So you might think that for you it's a little bit harder to talk to someone that. But actually for me too, it's like the other is the same. So if you never talk to a black guy, chances are the black guy never talked to someone like you. So it would be as scared to do the first step as you. And then it's like, very funny…

SAMIA: True, true. You know, now I have a soft spot for like when I see someone who's shy and, you know, looks like they might be hesitating to interact and needs help, I will proactively go to them.

JEF: Oh, yes.

SAMIA: Try to help them out and just make them feel more comfortable. It's because  I know I've been through that difficulty and I mean, I'm still a little bit challenged in those ways, but by and large, thank God, you know, I've overcome a lot and improved a lot. And so I feel, feel like, you know, for people that I can see visibly being challenged in these ways, I have a soft spot for them.

JEF: Yeah. So that's very nice. Yeah. Of course, once you know what it is to overcome it, then you realize that you can help people who are in this situation. That's amazing. And if you organize events, that's a little bit your role to make everyone comfortable. You cannot tell people that, hey, maybe you should do something to be more sociable and talk to people. No, no, no. It's more like, okay, I go there, I will. It's my role to make this person comfortable.

SAMIA: Yeah. Jef, I could keep talking to you for more time longer, probably more, several more hours. But we have to wrap up for today. Do you have any last thoughts you would like to share?

JEF: Oh, yes, yes. So, Samia, it was very nice talking to you for me, it's my passion to talk about those topics. So I have endless amounts of things to tell. People can connect with me on LinkedIn Geoffrey Huck. Probably the name will be in the description of this episode, I post tips about public speaking and other types of things. I have on my LinkedIn a link to download a PDF for free on this ability, how to get this ability and willingness to talk with everyone that we talked about. I completed it recently and I think it covers the first steps for people who are curious about it. I also have a page where you can download another key, another guide. It's on my website, GeoffreyHuck.com/podcast and this is more related to public speaking. This is the first steps and the past or the methodology that you can use no matter where you currently are in terms of public speaking. Like you can, you can be scared of it or you can already present, but it's to go from where you are to being a speaker that stands out with your own style, someone who's being remembered. And this is the methodology that you need to follow. We covered it a little bit during the questions, but it's more formalized. So those are the two things that I can offer.

SAMIA: Yay! Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. And yes, for those of you who are listening, please make sure you check the show notes because for sure, for sure, we will drop Jef's links in there so you can be sure you're connecting with the right Jef and it'll be really quick and easy for you to do. So do it and get the help and support you need whenever you need it. And until we connect next time, I wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)