Using Conflict As A Tool for Self-Growth.

Using Conflict As A Tool for Self-Growth.
With Anna Dobos & Samia Bano

Are you struggling to build your #coachingbusiness as a #busymom, homemaker or other very busy Learning to #dealwithconflict in a healthy way, especially if you've suffered trauma, is crucial to creating relationships that are #funandeasy!

Listen now to this interview with, Anna Dobos, #Author, Relationship & #TraumaTherapist,

and learn how to use conflict as a tool for #selfhealing, #selfgrowth, and creating the most #healthyrelationships.

Learn more and connect with Anna at: www.manka.ca

Also, be sure to check out Anna's book, "Relationship Matters: Groundwork for Conscious Relationships", at:

Https://www.amazon.com/Relationship-Matters%E2%80%A6/dp/B0D2V5NVB2

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

#relationshipmatters #HealingJourney #PostTraumaticGrowth #RelationshipHealing #TraumaRecovery #SelfAwareness #PersonalGrowth #EmotionalWellness #CouplesTherapy #OvercomingTrauma #MentalHealthMatters #CulturalPerspective #FamilyDynamics #BreakingBarriers #AuthenticConnection #LearningAndChange

Here's the audio version of this episode:

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Full Video Transcript

SAMIA: Okay. All right. Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Dzień Dobry! And Jane Dobre! It's really, really good to be with you again. And I know you'll be so happy you've joined us, because we have a really wonderful guest with us, and it's Anna Dobos, who's an Author. And other than being an Author, she's a Relationship and Trauma Therapist. Welcome, Anna…

ANNA: Oh, hi Samia. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I'm so excited about this conversation.

SAMIA: Oh, me too. Me too... And before we really get into the conversation, Anna, please tell us more about who you are and what you do.

ANNA: Yeah. I was born and raised in Hungary, so English is my second language. And I moved to Canada, Vancouver… I'm a Vancouver-based therapist… I moved eight years ago, and so it was my choice. So I love this country because it was my choice. And I love this multicultural background, diversity. So when I talk about myself, I think that maybe that's one of my main characteristics, that I chose to be in an environment where we are from different countries, with different gender identities… And I work with people who… with a very diverse population. And my passion is to find a shared humanity underneath the different beliefs, the different layers, and help people recognize that, who we are, that we are one big human family underneath all the different shapes and forms and colors and stories. So that's the basic idea. I work with couples. Since I wrote my book “Relationship Matters”, I mostly, mostly work with people who suffer trauma and with couples, and I'm super passionate about that.

SAMIA: I love it. I love it. And thank you so much for sharing something of your personal story with us also. And I can definitely relate to it. My family has also moved around… America, where I'm living now, this is the fourth country, actually, that I'm living in. And it really does shape you and influence you when you make a move and you go through the process of making a new home in a new place and a new culture. But at the same time, it's like the place where you have lived before or where you were born and raised, it also continues to be a part of you. And it's so interesting, I think, to learn to bring those different identities of ourselves together and find a place of harmony inside of ourselves with those different aspects of our lives and our identities.

ANNA: Yeah, it's really tricky, because when I arrived, I had certain beliefs about myself, and I truly believed that, okay, this is who I am. I'm not a really sporty person. I'm not… like, as a woman coming from Hungary, I had certain beliefs. And then arriving to an environment where women are treated very differently and there are different opportunities and beliefs about women, I discovered that, wow, some of the things that I believed about myself are not true, because when I experience myself in this new environment with different people and they perceive me differently, I discovered that, wow, maybe there are new colors in me… So it's very interesting what you say, that, yes, we integrate our own culture and then we discover new things about ourselves. So I think that maybe personality is kind of fluid because it's a construct depending on the environment, the stories we experience and we receive. So it's such a big topic… what personality is.

SAMIA: Yes…

ANNA: ..what identity is.

SAMIA: Yes, I agree with you. I agree with you. I think, you know, moving around with my family across different cultures has actually been one of the things that has definitely shifted my personality. But as a trauma survivor, it was also one of the catalysts for my healing and growth and my ability to actually gain better insight into what I was experiencing. And definitely in terms of what options were available to me for reaching out and getting help. So I will, for example, I remember the first move that we made was… my family... we were living in a small town in India, and then we moved to Dubai. This was back in the early 1990s. And, you know, for us, it was like a huge change nonetheless, because in India, we were living in a joint family system. As I mentioned, it was a smaller town. And, you know, things like 24/7 running water and electricity were luxuries for us, you know, and… But it was normal to experience these things in Dubai. And in Dubai was the first time where I also was... My parents worked really, really hard to get me admitted into the best school that they could. And this was the first time I was in a school where there was this library that they had. Now, I mean, if I look at it from my grown up perspective now, that library was not the biggest library in the world, but to me, it was like my first time having access to as many books as there were. And we were actually required in school to read at least one book every week. And so that's how I first discovered my love for reading. And that became a huge point of, like, you know… because the trauma that I survived is child sexual abuse. And so actually reading became my best coping mechanism because it allowed me to, you know, just kind of forget my own life and my own problems and just forget myself and just focus on, you know, the books that I was reading, the characters I was reading about… because mostly I was reading, you know, young adult or even children's books and things like that, being only about nine years old at the time. But that was, you know… if my environment hadn't shifted, that new possibility would not have opened up. And with every move that I've made, you know, I can immediately think of other breakthroughs that I made or other things that opened up for me in the context of my trauma healing, you know? So it's been really amazing that way.

ANNA: Well, it's just fascinating. I would really love to hear more about your journey because I think that these personal stories are just so helpful. And what really jumped out at me when you were explaining this is how, I think, there is a difference between a traumatic event that happens to you and being a victim of trauma... So what I mean by that is that something very traumatic can happen and it can become a trauma… because trauma is when you carry it, when it stays with you, and it becomes so part of your life in a triggering and painful way… so in that case, something happened in the past, but it's constantly in the present with you. And then there is this other thing… When it's a traumatic event, it happened to you, but through education and seeking help and going through other experiences, you grow out of victimhood.

SAMIA: Yes.

ANNA: Because somehow you gain an understanding of what happened to me. I even suggest that maybe you even learn that someone who did that to you, this person might have been a wounded person in pain... You just gain a better understanding. So you have knowledge, and then all of a sudden, yes, there was trauma in your life, but there's a transformation and you're not a victim anymore.

SAMIA: Yes.

ANNA: So I love your story. And with all the traveling and learning and education, the books...

SAMIA: Yeah. Yes. No, thank you for those insights about making the distinction between the incident and then actually the trauma that, you know, what happens is that it's what stays with you… the incident done and over with, but the memories of it and the sense of suffering that you carry with you after… that is really... I agree with you… I mean, not only does it stay with you and hurt you, but that is actually the thing that people struggle to heal. And it can take people literally decades, all their lives even, trying to heal it. And it's so difficult if you don't reach out for help and support, because I know, like, for me, as long as I was trying to figure it out on my own, it was really, really, really difficult... And I was struggling so much, and I even got to a point where I was like, I just can't do this anymore. I cannot figure it out. Nothing's getting better. And I was like, either I just give up and end my life or I ask for help, literally… when, you know, it came down to that... So then, as scared as I still was, I was like, you know, I'm going to at least try to ask for help. And thank God I was able to do that. And actually, that would not have been possible either if we hadn't moved. And at that time, by that time, I had come to America and I was now having new opportunities open to me in terms of where I could even go to ask for help, you know? And so I'm really, really grateful that I have moved around as much as I did.

ANNA: Yeah. You know, I think that you pointed something very important out. When we are alone with trauma… trauma, the pain, the suffering can grow so huge, so large that you disappear. The person who you are disappears, and you become the trauma, you become the pain. And you even mentioned that, you know, either you end your life… Like, if we look at it, isn't it like, I even... I almost see an entity growing so large that it grows above and over your own boundaries and you disappear. So that's why seeking help and going through the process and dealing with trauma, it's so very important… because if you go through the healing process, then the trauma… we are not going to avoid it. It's not that we avoid it or it never happened to me. No, no, no. It's the opposite. We can take a look at it and we can even grow as a person because of the... not because of the trauma, but because of the process, because of the self growth, because of the learning that this trauma created. So there's a huge learning opportunity when challenges happen to us.

SAMIA: Yes, yeah. So true... That is so true. You know, I love this idea of post traumatic growth because, you know, this was actually one of the things that I discovered in the process of my learning and growth that... you know, a lot of times, even when you do reach out for help and support, a lot of people, all of their focus, even at a professional level, you know, like a lot of services… for example, here in America, when you reach out for help, a lot of the services that are available are focusing on helping you to recover. And recovery is good. It's really good because there's a lot of people who are struggling even to recover. But with recovery, the goal is to get you back to where you were before you experienced the traumatic incident. And, you know, that's really good as a goal, definitely as a first goal. But what a lot of people don't realize is that it doesn't have to stop there. Your growth doesn't have to stop there. Your learning doesn't have to stop there, and your experience of happiness and inner peace, etcetera, can also keep growing. And so that's where, you know, you can go from beyond recovery to actually thriving. And that's my favorite, favorite part now, because, you know, I actually noticed how there was so much focus on recovery, but there wasn't hardly anyone focusing on this post traumatic growth, this growth from recovery to thriving in your life. And that's actually part of why I became a Happiness Expert, because I was like, that's where I want to focus my efforts in working.

ANNA: Totally. I just couldn't agree more with you. And I think that we are here on this earth to grow, to become more and more self aware, more and more conscious. And I think that… oh, gosh, like, this is really a passionate area for me, you know, like, bringing awareness and love and connection. And I think that people grow... so either people get stuck when they face challenges and conflicts and trauma, so either they get stuck… but even when they are stuck, they will get depressed or they will start drinking. So I know that maybe I'm not so popular with my approach among other therapists, because when I meet my clients and someone reaches out to me with depression, anxiety, ADHD, addiction issues, I kind of celebrate that. Yay. Great. Because these are just symptoms telling you that you are not living the life that you could, that you have some potential in you that is just not… like, it's dormant. And those symptoms, like depression, is just showing us that… Huh... Something needs to change here, like thriving growth is there. It's possible. And the nervous system, your inner wisdom is telling you that, hello, you know, something needs to shift. So I think that, yes, when we go through conflicts, drama, challenges, then there is... There's the healing and there's that growth where you can become some… something more. And that's so exciting…

SAMIA: Yes. You know, and I do really have a great appreciation for the wisdom of our bodies now… because, you know, oftentimes what happens... I've seen this with the clients that I work with, and I've seen this in my own personal experience as well, that sometimes, you know, we are not willing to create the change that we really need… like, at a conscious level, or we are maybe really struggling with it for various reasons. And so we may just give up. But it's a change that really, we need to really make for our wellness, for our well being. And so then our subconscious or our heart or, you know, our bodies, even themselves, will figure out ways to nonetheless try to course correct us. And that's how I experienced when I was going through depression is that, you know, like, I wanted to just ignore my trauma. I wanted to just forget about it, act like it never happened. And that, as a strategy, worked for a while. But after a while, you know, you really need to deal with it. You need to face up to it and do the work to heal what needs healing. But when I kept running away from it, kept running away from it, at some point, my body was like, no, Samia, we're not going to let you keep running away. 

ANNA: Yeah. 

SAMIA: And so I actually fell into a deep depression, and it just literally forced me to stop doing anything with my life because I just lost the motivation to do anything and... But it forced that stop, you know, because otherwise I would just... No, keep going, keep going, keep going… ignoring the trauma, ignoring the trauma... But when the depression hit, it was like, no, you cannot run away anymore. We're not going to let you. And so then that was actually where, as I mentioned, I got to that point where I was like, either I asked for help and change something or, you know, this is it... I can't go on. So for me, it became that, you know, serious turning point, and my body had to, like, literally force me to do it.

ANNA: Yeah, yeah. And most of us learn through pain that something becomes so unbearably painful, like depression... I've been there as well, that the only thing that matters is to do something about it. And that's when we gather the courage to face the painful trauma. Because, of course, you know, there is this part of us that wants to avoid. Because facing pain is painful, but avoiding pain, it becomes even more painful. So when avoidance becomes more painful than facing trauma, that's when most of us have the courage. But after that, of course, that's where growth happens… And in my book, because the book is about relationships, romantic relationships… at the same time, this is the basic idea that we, as children, we, most of us don't receive the super unconditional, supportive love and/or, you know, school or society... Like, somehow we suffer trauma. And trauma, by the way, can be even a little thing that you were not seen and heard as a child... So it's not only something that happened to you, but also certain things that you didn't receive that your little nervous system needed. So what do children do? They develop coping strategies. So, for example, they become people pleasers or victims who are so vulnerable. So children figure out how to get the attention they need or how to navigate in the family system or in their society to be accepted, to be okay. So we enter these romantic relationships with a backpack, with all those survival strategies, all the trauma, all the triggers… 

Triggers are red buttons that when they are pushed or they are being pushed somehow, then with time travel… old stuff just arise. So we, instead of seeing what's present, what's true in the present moment, old feelings appear in the body, in your body, as if you were reliving the old pain. And romantic relationships are the playground of this. So, so many times, we are able to function really well. There's, like, high functioning people, you know, with great jobs, and, you know, they go to the gym or whatever they do. And then at home, that's where we get triggered, and that's where the old patterns come alive. And then because of the lack of knowledge, we think that, oh my God, this is horrible. The other person, we blame the other person, we blame the relationship that this relationship is so painful. The relationship is painful. Well, it's not the relationship that's painful. It's old pain being triggered for you and for your partner. And the book speaks about this, that, how incredible it is if we take the approach that we could partner up with our spouse or partner or, you know, the person we live with and say that… how about we use this relationship for self growth? So when we are in a conflict and we are activated, instead of finding, oh, my God, this relationship is so painful, we can take a look at ourselves and say that, oh, so interesting that when he is yelling, I become a little girl and I become a victim… I have this victim mindset that, oh, my God, poor me, it's happening to me… So I can observe myself, I can develop self awareness, what to see… what happens in my body when I'm being triggered. And I can discover that, wow, that comes from my childhood, when my dad and mom and whoever was treating me in a certain way. So as a child, I was a victim. But am I a victim now? Is there anything that I can do about it? And my partner can discover that, oh, in order to protect myself, I try to control things or I get angry or I become a people pleaser so that people accept me. So in the relationship, you know, we can discover our old patterns. And if we have a partner who's willing to play this with us, then it can become a beautiful, beautiful journey. So that's the idea of the book. 

And it's so connected to trauma because all those coping strategies are… we developed those in childhood because of the trauma, small or big or whatever, that we suffer. So relationships can offer this healing space. Unfortunately, most of the time the opposite happens. We act out, they act out, everyone acts out, and we basically get re-traumatized. And then we enter a different relationship and the person looks different and acts different, but the same things will re-occur. Anyway, that's the main idea of the book and the courses and my work, when I work with couples to explore how we can grow out of childhood patterns and transform the trauma we suffered and get liberated and maybe find who we really are and connect on a different level.

SAMIA: Yes. That is so beautiful. That is really beautiful... And, you know, the willingness piece that you were talking about… both the partners be willing to engage in this play, you know, learning how to grow together and heal together, that is so important… because I think that is what… a lot of times, there's confusion in that you can't force anyone else to do this or that… change in any way, really. So if your relationship is going to work and, you know, there really has to be willingness on both sides. And it's like very difficult when one person wants to grow and the other person is not on board with that… and that in itself can actually become a cause for conflict and so forth. And so to have this willingness… to know... Like, if you're in a relationship, to talk to your partner about, hey, are you willing to do this with me? Or if you're going to get into a new relationship, to have this in your mind as a criteria to look for someone who would be willing to engage in this play with you.

ANNA: Yeah, I think that's a tough one. You can find yourself in a relationship and then recognize that when you are already in the relationship that, oh, there's an opportunity for growth here. And then your partner either joins you or not. If your partner doesn't join, well, depending on the, you know, the intensity of the issues two people have… you are responsible for your own growth. So you can start exploring yourself and change without having expectations. And that might have an impact on the other person. But that's very true that it becomes difficult when you grow and the other person doesn't and… and then what happens to the relationship? That's a big question mark if the relationship survives or not... If you are looking for someone and you are trying to find a… trying to find... I mean, if you're single, then yeah, I think that it's an important criteria. So from my perspective, people can arrive to a relationship with all kind of... The people are not perfect. I'm not perfect for sure. For me, one of the most important criteria is that the other person already has some self awareness or has the willingness, the intention, to self reflect. Because if that's present for both people, then anything... people can overcome any issues and grow. But if there is this blindness or this rejection, then that's… just everything stops there.

SAMIA: Yeah, that's right. I mean, some people have the attitude of, well, I am who I am and I'm just going to stay this way. And there's actually an act of resistance that you experience with, with these people to creating any kind of change, to creating any kind of growth. And that can become, like, very problematic, especially for someone who does want to grow. So it's important to have this… to be aware of this for yourself and just make sure you're matching your partner.

ANNA: Yeah, yeah. And I think that it's... I even suggest that self growth and awareness is so… it's not just a good thing to have, but it's almost our chance as, you know, as humanity to survive. Because those people who think that, okay, this is who I am, period, that's it, these are my beliefs, these are, these are my stories…. And there's no questioning. There's no, you know, exploration. There's no curiosity. Then how can be, how can you be curious about the other person? How can, can you be curious about another culture? And if people are married to, you know, a very rigid personality, then of course, groups, families, groups, social groups are married to a very rigid story. And then of course, countries can be married to very rigid stories… and then all we see is separation all the time… separation… and then we know what happens. So without diving into political stuff, when there is separation, then it's a dead end. So I think that that's why when we look at what's, you know, what's happening out there, we should take a look at ourselves that am I, am I growing? Am I.. what can I do? So what can I do? Well, I can develop better relationships with my loved ones and, and then demonstrate that that's possible.

SAMIA: Yes. This is such an important insight that you have highlighted, Anna… I mean, the things that are, you know, challenges for us at a personal level, they don't just remain personal challenges, they will impact our other relationships. And after all, societies, countries, entire cultures are made up of individuals. And the way that we are as people individually, absolutely shapes the society, the countries, the cultures that we are a part of. And, I mean, again, having moved around, you know, I can attest to this, that every nation has a certain personality. And you, like, really feel it when you go to a different culture, go to a different country… and it's not that everyone is the same, but there is, like, a dominant personality, a dominant culture, a dominant way that you experience people doing things. And, you know, when you move around, you begin to see that in some ways more clearly than people who have been living there forever and have not moved around. Because I remember when we lived in India, I mean, and in our small town, I thought that was just how it was, you know? And so, like, for example, like, as a Muslim person, I only knew one way to be Muslim, and that was the way I experienced it growing up in my small town in India. But when we moved to Dubai, actually, very interesting thing about Dubai is that 80% of the population there is immigrants. And so you have people from pretty much all over the world coming and mixing over there, including Muslims from different parts of the world. And, you know, so you... That was my first exposure to different Muslim cultures and different ways of being Muslim. And it was, like, very shocking at first, but then it became really fun… because, you know, you get to discover different ways that you can be while still, you know… like, for us, my family, we identified as Muslim, and we were very, you know, much committed to our identity as Muslims. And so we didn't want to do anything that would be considered un-Islamic or, you know, going against our faith and religion and beliefs. So to discover other ways of being Muslim, other understandings of how Muslims think and can live and be, it was so much fun because it just, again, you know, opened up so much while giving us the opportunity to stay in integrity with our identity as Muslims.

ANNA: Yeah, I think it's so exciting to discover maybe the core message or what you regard as core of your religion and then discover that some part of the religion is man-made of and people practice it differently. So there's a freedom... There's a freedom of who you want to be within the borders, boundaries, of your own culture.

SAMIA: Yes. And that's true about relationships also, and the possibilities that open up for you in terms of how to be in relationships… because, you know, like a relationship example in terms of changing countries was, again, like, you know, as long as we were in our small town in India, there was one way that we had experience about how to be a family, how to be with each other. But when we moved, like, especially when we moved to America, my gosh, I think for… in some ways, that was, like, the biggest culture shock for us because, you know, as long as we were moving around in Asia, there was certain... I mean, there was definitely differences. Like, other than Dubai, I've also lived in Pakistan, in Asia. But, you know, there's a certain collectivistic cultural mindset in India, in Pakistan and in Dubai that I experienced… Very family-oriented, very… like, your identity is more like a group identity focus.

ANNA: …collectivist, collectivist societies, for sure.

SAMIA: Collectivist societies... And so it was… So even though I experienced differences, it wasn't until I came to America and experienced the more individualistic culture in America that we really got to see something significantly different in terms of relationships. You know, I remember, for example, when we moved here in LA, I was almost 18 years old, and we had family, extended family, who was already here. And so when we first came here, we were actually staying with our extended family. So one of my aunts, uncle… they were actually, like, several of my aunts, uncles, and cousins, all living in close proximity together. And I remember this one day where my aunt and my cousin, who was actually even younger than I was at the time, they were sitting together. And at some point, my cousin put up her foot towards her mother, and she was like, mom, my foot hurts. Give me a massage. And her mom started giving her a foot massage, and they were like, it's completely normal. And, like, for me, I was like, oh, what's going on here? Like, that's never… like, I give my mom foot massages all the time, but that's something very appropriate for me as the daughter to do for my mother. But to see that happening in reverse was very surprising for me because the way that our relationships work, it's like, you're not in an equal level with your parents in the traditional Indian culture. You're not... Your parents are authority figures, and there is a certain respect that's due to them. And, you know, there's a... Like, you serve them.

I mean, your parents take care of you in all kinds of ways, but you never… like, I mean, you never have... I mean, like, I never saw something like that.

ANNA: It's a hierarchy…

SAMIA: Yes. Yes, you would never… It would be considered… like, you wouldn't ask someone who's above you, as an authority figure, to massage your foot for you. You just never do that in our traditional Indian culture. So, you know, it was just very like a different paradigm, you know, of how you can be in a relationship… and it's like my cousin and her mom had a very good relationship. Like, they were very happy with each other, very easy going… and, you know, even the, how they were easy going with each other and the way that, I mean, they were just so casual with each other. You know, it was just such a different thing for us to see and experience. And again, it just opened up all of these, like, possibilities for how my family was. Like, well, how do we want to continue to be as a family? And, you know, now, like, the way my family behaves with each other is a lot more relaxed and casual than when we were back in India or even Pakistan or even, you know, Dubai. And it's just, again, you know, there's something really wonderful about having that choice to be different and to behave in a different way and still know that you are not doing anything wrong by doing things in this different way, that you're still, you know, holding the integrity and the value of the relationship.

ANNA: Yeah, I think that's just such a, such a great story. And I think that's what these cultures offer where we have so many people from different cultures… that we develop this... what is it? Like, this really, like, we lose the rigidity that things have to be in a certain way. And that's why traveling is so, so important and because it's so easy to think, for example, that love… like, if we love each other, we need to behave in a certain way. So, you know, there are those love languages. For example, some people love giving gifts. The other one loves verbal affirmation… or not affirmation… What is it? Is that affirmation… like, you know, verbal… whatever… affirmation, validation, you know… and just an example that, you know, when, when you were talking about your family, I have… it's really like, my, my dear, dear friends back in, in Hungary, and they, they shout and they keep throwing things around and yell… like they're so angry all the time, like, at each other, you know? And at first when I met them, I was kind of terrified because it's a very different style. Like, I don't do that. And I thought, like, I said, oh, my God, this is terrible, you know, like, these kids here are being terrorized, you know? But you know what? Like, as I learn more about them, they are just one of the strongest and most loving family I know. They are just loud. They're just really loud and they get really loud and then everyone is really screaming. But then they talk about the issues, they solve them, and they move on. And there's this really really strong bond. So for me, that was such a, you know, like a learning experience, that what matters is the connection and the love… the form, how it looks like, you know, that that can be very different because so many times people do the right things and say the right things, but there's no real connection. It's just coexist and, and be super respectful and helpful. There's no real connection underneath.

SAMIA: Yes. Yes. Oh, you're so right about that. You're so right about that. You know, this is something that I've actually experienced in American corporate culture, to the extent that I've been exposed to American corporate culture where, you know, when, when you enter into the professional world, there are certain expectations that are laid on you in terms of how you behave, particularly in the context of interacting with customers, but also in how you interact with colleagues. And there are certain expectations that are placed upon you. So, for example, if you go to the store, any kind of business that is serving customers, you know, there's this thing about the customer is always right. And so there's this expectation that the people who are working behind the counter, you know, will treat you in a very pleasant way, that they be smiling, and no matter how badly you as a customer might behave, they're expected to put up with it and, you know, just sort of keep the situation calm, and de-escalate, etcetera. And at one level, all of that makes sense, and it's totally fine. But, you know, what I found kind of disturbing was that the behavior of the employees… they meet the expectations, but it's not always coming from a genuine place. And so behind the scenes, there is so much unhappy feelings and even anger and dissatisfaction that the employees are then, you know, sort of harboring. And it's like, you know, you deal with the customer a certain way and you're smiling at them or whatever. As soon as the customer is gone, then you start complaining about this person to your co-worker or whoever, and, you know, you're just, like, wenting about their bad behavior and etcetera. And there is, like, for me, you know, it creates, like, this disconnect that I don't think is really healthy for us as people to, you know, behave in these ways that, you know… to behave in a way that is not really reflective of how we really think and feel and to do that day after day, day after day, day after day, because you're expected to do it. I mean, it just creates so much unhappiness for people. And it's just… I mean, I've even experienced or witnessed, where, like, literally people are so unhappy, they're actually feeling depressed at their work, but they're still expected to present that happy face. And actually, that ends up becoming another cause for why they become more depressed and more unhappy. You know, it's just like this vicious cycle that they were like, how do you break out of it?

ANNA: Well, that's a great question, how to break out of that. And I think that the whole thing starts in childhood when around age two, and especially when kids start going to school, like, not just daycare or whatever, but the actual school system… when we teach children how to start wearing different spacesuits. It was Ram Dass who called it a spacesuit. So put on a persona... So instead of being who you are and speaking your truth and express your emotions, we teach children how to behave as good girls and good boys. And there are so many beliefs… that boys don't cry… I don't… that's one thing that pops into my mind, that boys don't cry. Well, I have a son. He cried a lot. Thank God. He needed to express… Crying, by the way, just saying, like, do we ever think about why human beings cry? Well, why? Because first of all, with the tears, some toxins leave the system. And crying is an expression of that feeling that they have. And then we learn, we are taught how to suppress the feelings we have and behave. And of course, I'm a parent as well, and we have the responsibility of teaching certain things to kids… how to behave. But at the same time, when there is no room for self-expression, expressing their true feelings and having real conversations about why we behave this way… we behave this way… let's say we speak respectfully to our teachers. We do that. But if there is a conflict between the teacher and the child, it’s possible that the child can express talk about their feelings. So I think that what you're talking about starts in childhood. And I think that this is a topic that we could talk hours, because that's where the training, the somebody training, the good citizen, the good employee, the good student starts. And all those kids who don't fit in the box, they are labeled. They label that they have this or that, whatever... They get diagnosed with things when, in fact, it's possible that they just have a different way. There's this very narrow box to conform. Either we can squeeze you in that box and you can manage, or you fall out and then you grow up with labels. I know that's a different topic, what you brought up, but I think that the root… Oh, gosh, like, how to deal with what, you know, what you were talking about... Well, it all starts in childhood. So I think that's why our responsibility is gaining self-awareness, learning about ourselves… seeing… like, recognizing our triggers and I patterns and see how we pass that on to the next generation. I think that that's so important. And then, of course, education… I mean, if teachers were educated about emotional health and it was part of like, oh, gosh, like, it's a huge topic, so I don't think that we can dive into it. But, yeah, I hear you. I totally hear you…

SAMIA: So true. And you know what, Anna, I think we'll just have to bring you back so we can keep talking…

ANNA: I think so…

SAMIA: Oh, gosh. But thank you so much for all the wisdom you have shared and very, very interesting insights. And there were actually other questions that were coming to my mind as we were talking that I didn't even get to voice as yet. So we have so much more to talk about. But for right now, if we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts to share?

ANNA: Oh, I don't know... My last thoughts are that… how amazing it is that there's so many topics we can talk about and there's so many things that need to be explored and changed. And I'm just so grateful for this conversation and so grateful for the passion you have and the passion I have for these things… and bringing… and thank you for doing what you do, because you are bringing awareness to the most important topics, how change is so needed. By the way, change is the only thing that is constant, is change… and make it fun and learning, educating ourselves, and it's just so important. So I just want to express my gratitude. I think that those are my last thoughts. Yeah.

SAMIA: Thank you so much, Anna. And my last reminder to our listeners is to please make sure you check the show notes because I will be dropping Anna's links in the show notes. You can connect with her, even check out her book. And until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)