Healing Spiritual Abuse, Reclaiming Self, and Learning to Love. Martha Kartaoui

Healing Spiritual Abuse, Reclaiming Self, and Learning to Love. Martha Kartaoui & Samia Bano

Tired of being told #whoyouare and what to do? Want to stop merely existing and #startliving?

Listen now to this interview with Martha Glory Kartaoui, #Author, #Speaker, #Mentor, Life Visionary. Martha opens up about the profound loss of identity that follows cult #trauma. She invites listeners to ask the powerful question “Who am I really?” and reminds us that it’s never too late to begin again.

NOTE: Leaving a cult doesn’t automatically mean you’re free. Martha Kartaoui shares how #freedom requires rebuilding identity, healing deep trauma, and learning to make choices for the first time.

We also explore the #powerofconnection, the healing force of love, and how choosing life for others can sometimes open the door to choosing life and #choosinglove for ourselves.

Connect with Martha and learn even more at: www.letgloryshine.com

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

#CultRecovery #ReligiousTrauma #SpiritualHealing #TraumaHealing #NervousSystemHealing #SelfWorthJourney #HealingIdentity #FaithAfterTrauma #SpiritualAbuseRecovery #InnerFreedom #HealingJourney #ReclaimYourSelf #TraumaInformed #MindBodySpirit #SelfLoveHealing #BreakingFree #ConsciousHealing #PersonalLiberation #EmpoweredLiving #ReturningToSelf

Here's the audio version of this episode:

Transcript Automatically Generated

SAMIA: Hello, Salam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Ola, Chao, Bonjour, Puna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Jeanne Dobre. It's really, really good to be with you again. And I know you'll be so happy to join us today because we have a very cool, very special guest with us. And that's Martha Kartaoui. Martha, I hope I said your last name right.

MARTHA: It's okay. It's Kartaoui, but it's no problem.

SAMIA: Thanks for that. I'm so happy to have you with us. Welcome again.

MARTHA: So thank you for allowing me the space and the time to share. So thank you.

SAMIA: Yes. And Martha, please, please tell us more about who you are and what you do.

MARTHA: Sure. So yeah, I am Martha Glory and Kartaoui, and I grew up in a religious cult, and I was there the first 26 years of my life. I was born into it. And so upon my escape at almost age 26, I entered into this wild, crazy world that I knew nothing about, and I was ill-equipped for. And I started trying to figure out how to do this thing called life. And I had no tools because I had been controlled my entire life. Everything had always been told for me and done for me. And, you know, like I didn't know how to make decisions independent of being told what to do. You know, the very small things like what I wore, what I ate, when I went to the bathroom, what time I ate, what time I prayed, all of those things were told to me. And I did as I was told. And so I didn't know how to make even simple decisions. So fast forward, I get married, I get a job. I tried to start rebuilding my life. And it was way more challenging than you would think. Even though I was free, I was still very stuck in prison. I wasn't in my past in all of the trauma that I had experienced in the cult. And I really didn't have the capacity to be free because I didn't know what that meant. I didn't have the capacity to be loved because I didn't know what that meant. I didn't have the capacity to make decisions because I didn't know what that meant, right? And so I went through a very challenging and new kind of trauma, right? Trying to figure out how to live in this world that's supposed to be free. And eventually, after about five years of just knocking my head against the wall, making all of the wrong decisions and hurting myself even more, I finally just came to this place of surrender and realized that I needed help and I needed to figure out how to, you know, how to go back and rewire my brain and how to rewire my nervous system and how to fix the programming that had been broken because of all the trauma that I experienced as a as a youngster. So that's my story. And now we're fast forward. I've been out of the cult 20 years. I've rebuilt my life. I've been on a healing journey for the last 14 years where I've reclaimed who I am. And I stand strong in what that means to reclaim who I am and to become who God's created me to be. And now I'm stepping fully into that and helping others through my experience and through my healing to do the same. So, yeah.

SAMIA: It's an amazing journey that you have had. And thank you so much for sharing that with us. And there's just so much in there that I would love to explore more deeply with you. And I think to sort of go more towards the more beginning aspects of the journey, what even like made you, I mean, given how much control one is subjected to in a cult, what made you even be like, no, I need to leave and escape?

MARTHA: And that was, I had found one of my sisters on the internet and I found out she had been separated from the cult for many years. And so I found out that she was pregnant and she was expecting her first child. And her and I had shared a bedroom growing up our entire lives until I had moved into the compound at 18. And so she and I had a very special bond. And so when she told me she was pregnant, there was something inside of me that just switched. And I was like, I have to get home to be with her, for her to go through this pregnancy. I don't want her to have to go through it alone. And my parents were part of the cult, so she didn't have anybody. She had no support because if you weren't part of the cult, you weren't allowed to have relationships with people that were outside of the cult, because you were excommunicated if you leave the cult. So my sister had been excommunicated. And so I knew she had nobody. And growing up, when we didn't have relationships with our extended family because they weren't in the cult, so we didn't have relationships. And so something happened to me, and I was like, I don't want her child to grow up not knowing me, not knowing their auntie, not knowing that they have an extended family. And so that was the force that really gave me the strength, the courage was this unborn baby, wanting this unborn baby to know me, wanting my sister to know that she wasn't alone and that I would be there to support her. And that's what gave me the courage, not that I was choosing life for myself. It had nothing to do with that. I was choosing life for that child and for my sister.

SAMIA: Huh. That is... Wow. I mean, it just makes me think about the power of love and connection and, you know, you made me think about my little niece and nephew. They were born like just a few months ago. And they're the first babies that I've really got involved with, taken care of. And like, oh, I'm going to change your diapers. And sometimes my brother and sister, they just leave me alone with the babies to take care of while they go off, do what they need to do, and you know, things like that. And it's like the first time, you know, that I have felt such love for a little baby. Like, not that I've not felt love for my other nieces and nephews, but it's like, well, when I've been taking care of these little ones, and you know, and sometimes I'm just like holding them, and you know, it's just, there's this feeling of connection, but also of like the sense of gratitude for life that I don't think I've felt before either, because like for myself, you know, being a survivor of a different kind of trauma, I've always, you know, had this sort of relationship with my own sense of gratitude for life that's sometimes a little bit complicated. And I have not always felt gratitude for life, but with these little babies, it's like been, I mean, I just feel so grateful that they're alive, that I get to be a part of their life, they get to be a part of my life. And I feel the sense of like, yeah, I will go to lunch for them that I don't think I've imagined going for anyone else.

MARTHA: Yeah, exactly.

SAMIA: It's like amazing. And so it's just an unexpected switch, I suppose, in some ways. Certainly for you, it wasn't something you were expecting at that time. And I'm just like so amazed, but also really grateful that that it happened for you. So tell me more then. So as you were sharing, like even after you left the cult, you weren't truly free. You didn't really know the meaning of what it meant to be free. Tell me a little bit more about that part of your journey. And yeah, just tell me a little bit more about what it is not to really know freedom and to still feel died down, died back or held back or...

MARTHA: I did not know who Martha Glory was. And I, because my whole life, I had been told who I was, right? I had been, my only identities were those that had been given to me by the leader or had been given to me by my family or had been because I was never asked ever in my life. I had never been asked, well, who are you? Who do you want to be when you grow up? What is it that really excites you about life? Nobody had asked me these questions. And so I had never had an internal conversation with self saying, well, what does Martha like? What does Martha want to be when she grows up? What does Martha like? What kind of foods? What colors? Those simple, simple questions, I'd never asked myself. And so I did not know who I was. That's the simplest way that I can put it, is that I had no true identity. That was my own. And so when I say that I was lost and that I was walking around, I often say this from different stages, is that I feel like I was walking around as a skeleton of myself, because I looked fine, right? Like I looked, because I knew how to put on the fake smile. I knew how to push through with that fake positivity. I knew how to show up in the face of adversity and just push through, right? Because I had a work ethic, so I knew how to work hard. I knew how to fight for the things that I wanted, but I didn't know who I was. So on the outside, I would do well, you know, I'd get through. I was working really hard. I was climbing the corporate ladder. I was becoming very successful professionally, but at home, I was a broken mess. So as soon as I would walk through that door and I could take off the fake smile, I could take off the fake persona, I was just a mess because all of my trauma was bubbling up. And I didn't have the tools, the capacity, the bandwidth to deal with what was bubbling up. And so I would fall apart at home and then I would rebuild in time to go to work the next morning. And it was just this vicious cycle of trying to figure out how to exist in two different worlds that knew nothing about each other.

SAMIA: You know, that makes me think about the question of who are we really? What have you discovered about who are you really?

MARTHA: And so that has been a really powerful and beautiful becoming, right? Or unbecoming, because you have to, I feel like sometimes in healing, we have to unbecome all the things that we were taught that we were in order to really become the person that God created us to be. And so stepping into that, reclaiming that, and rediscovering my gifts, my talents, my mission, my vision, my purpose, all of those things has been this beautiful rediscovery of who I am. This, you know, like I am love, I am kindness, I am somebody that will walk alongside you, I am a beautiful auntie, I am, like, I'm all of these things, but my true identity is the person that God created me to be, which is love, which is light, which is a healer, which is, you know, somebody that will stand beside you and hold space for you. And like, that's who God created me to be. And so that's, you know, who, like, who am I? That's who I am. Like, I'm all these other things, too. I have a lot of other gifts and talents. But what who I really am is a child of God and somebody that's been through a lot and has found self and in that through that lens of who God created me to be.

SAMIA: Ah, love that is, you know, there's just so many layers to our sense of identity, to our sense of being. And it's, and I'm so happy to know and hear how you have explored so many of these different layers. It's, you know, when you were describing your experience around not knowing who you are, you made me think about how so many of us who technically have never been in a cult, but nonetheless seem to be living lives where we're just following some kind of, you know, autopilot mode or something where we don't really get to know who we really are. We're just doing things and suffering as a result of it.

MARTHA: When you're truly living, that's very different experience than just existing. And I think the autopilot is a great analogy for it, right? When you're just existing, you're on autopilot, you're just getting through life. And there's nothing really great, there's nothing really hard, like you're just getting through the day to day. You deal with the crap, and if there's a great, okay, right? But you're never really excited about anything because it's all kind of this monotonous day to day in, day out routine that you've put yourself in. And I had a really cool conversation with this guy, this client of mine who's 78, so he's almost 80 years old. And I was talking to him and he was like, nobody's ever asked me who I was. And he's like, when I heard you say that on stage, I was like, holy crap, I've never asked myself who I was. And that was what got him to reach out to me. He was like, nobody's ever asked me who I was. That was a great question. And he's like, now you've made me think about it. It had been like two weeks since he had heard me speak. And he's like, then I've been thinking about this for the last two weeks. And he's like, I realize I've just been existing for 78 years. He's like, is it too late to start living? And that was such a powerful, powerful thing for me to get to experience with him. And I was like, no, whether you have two weeks or 10 years left or 15 years left, you could start living today. You know, anyway, that was, and that's, that has stuck with me. And it is so powerful that when you're, when you finally realize, oh, I'm just existing. Is this how I want to live my life? And I have a choice? What? Pretty cool.

SAMIA: Yes. And that, you know, I mean, just again, going back to the motivation, not, not even the motivation, but the sense of gratitude for life. I mean, this was like one of my challenges is that for all the years that I was just existing with my trauma, you know, but just existing, I was like constantly like questioning, what's even the point of life? Like, why am I continuing to exist? What's the point of my life? And I thought so many times about, you know, like, I wish I would just cease to exist because what's the point of my life? But I never actually tried to take my life and end it for some reason. Well, I know some of the reason. Like one time when I was like really depressed and I was like, no, I just want to die. I just want to cease to exist. It was my mom's face that popped up in front of my eyes. And the thought of my mom, how she would feel if I was no longer here. Some, there was, I mean, that kept me from, you know, going any further with that thought of, I want to not be here anymore. And so, but it seemed like there was like no reason that I could find for myself. Like, why my, I mean, other than, you know, care of someone that loves me and would be devastated and I don't want them to be hurt and devastated. I could not think of a single reason for me to continue to exist for myself. And I, and, you know, now I frame, when I talk about that experience with that time of my life, I say, oh, I was depressed and I was traumatized and I explain it like that. But there has, even now, and I'm not depressed when I'm not, you know, traumatized in the same way that I was, you know, I have this tendency to question. It's like, what am I, like, what, what am I doing? What am I, you know, what's life really about? What's really meaningful about it? And I have to keep sort of, answering that question for myself. And a lot of times it's like, I don't think it's anything that I am doing particularly that has inherent meaning, but it's more just that, you know, it's just who I am. I am spirit and, you know, spirit is life. And, and to connect with that, that aspect of, you know, essence of spirit, that we are love and light. So it's only when I truly connect with that essence, then it's like, oh, no, of course, it makes sense that I just exist. But yeah, it's, yeah. It just keeps coming back to that a lot of so much, it just keeps going back to the love and how it manifests, you know, for us in all these different ways. Sometimes it's the love that you feel for someone else, but then also, you know, like, learning to feel a love for yourself as you really, really are beyond, you know, just what you do and things that keep you busy.

MARTHA: nd so on this 14-year journey, I had to really embrace what it meant to love myself and how I, how I chose to, you know, start loving myself and do the work so that I could love myself. Because so often we're taught that loving yourself is selfish, or loving yourself, oh, that's conceited, or loving yourself, that's out of ego. And that's absolutely the opposite. What I have learned is that I can't say that I love God, or I love anybody else, whether that's my children, or that's my spouse, or whether that's my nieces and nephews, if I don't love self first. Because that, if I don't love self first, that means I don't believe that I'm created in God's image. If I believe I'm created in God's image and God loves me, then I better love myself because I better love the creation that God made, which is me. Like, it's this very simple, right? I had to really break it down into simple terms of, like, understanding. If I say I love them, it has to start with me first because I cannot love which is not loved.

SAMIA: If I may, just to be a devil's advocate, I agree with you, I agree with you. And just to sort of help us more deeply understand this point, the question of, I mean, I lived for so many years, and you lived for so many years where you were loving other people and struggling to love yourself. And so, how do we reconcile that experience of our life with knowing that we have to love ourselves too, and in some ways, loving ourselves has to come first. Because we spent so much of our life loving others, and not ourselves.

MARTHA: So, before I realized what it meant to love self, and I thought that I was loving others, I thought that I was showing up all out that I was capable of, what I realize now is that looking back at that time, I was giving from a place of empty. So, what I was giving them was not as good as what I can give them when I am filled up. Right? When I am filling up myself first, when I'm loving myself first, when I'm taking care of myself first, I have more physical energy, I have more emotional energy, I have more bandwidth, I am a better me for them once I start with me, right? So, when I loved my kids when they were little, right? And before I knew myself, right? But I did not have the capacity, I didn't have the patience, I got agitated very quickly, I became emotional very quickly because I didn't have the love for self first. So, that version of me that thankfully they don't remember because this version has been longer now, so that this is the one that they remember more of, right? That version of me did not have the capacity to truly love them. I was going through the motions because I wanted to love them, but I didn't even know what that really meant because I didn't know how to give it to self first.

SAMIA: Yeah. So, what is love then? When you love yourself and you love someone else, what really is, is it?

MARTHA:

SAMIA: Yeah.

MARTHA: I think of my relationship. I think of faith. I think of what it means to truly show up, what it means to truly care, compassion, have empathy. Those things all encompass love for me, right? Love is not this, it is a state of being and a state of doing at the same time.

SAMIA: Yeah. And so if we're not in a state of doing and it's just a state of being, you're missing part of it. You're missing part of the experience of what it really means to love and to be loved.

SAMIA: Yeah.

MARTHA:

SAMIA: Yes. Yes, I hear you. I hear you. I'm wondering in your experience when we are being love and when we are doing love, is it connected to you with happiness? The feeling of happiness?

MARTHA: You can feel love and feel joy. You can feel love and feel peace. So love is one of those things that is an all-encompassed feeling because you can feel love and yet feel all these other emotions at the same time.

SAMAI: Yeah, I mean, certainly we have the capacity to hold very complex emotions together. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing that. And I am in agreement with you. The other thing that I was like really wanting to hear you speak more about is the freedom part. What is freedom? What is it really, really?

MARTHA: And I was close to 40 before I realized that. And that has been a lot of my healing journey because I was so controlled growing up in the cult. I was so isolated. I was so brainwashed. I had so much rewiring to do in my brain, in my nervous system and everything. That freedom, there was parts of me that didn't want to be free because it was too complicated to be free because I didn't know what freedom meant. Does that make sense? It was easier to stay controlled and to stay in the mindsets that I was used to than to create the new because it took hard work. Now, when I look at freedom, and I look at the life that I get to live, and I look at the choices that I get to make because I did the hard work of becoming free, and standing in my power, and standing and claiming my freedom, that I understand why that's so important now. I understand that my worth is connected to that freedom. I didn't know my worth before I understood my freedom. Does that make sense?

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah, it makes me think about, like when I was reading about slaves. And I mean, you know, we have such a history of slavery in America, but also in other parts of the world. And this, I mean, I mean, there's of course that literal kind of slavery that people have been subjected to. And in some ways, even in today's world, people are being subjected to, where like literally, physically, you know, someone is controlling you and so on and so forth. But there's also, you know, like talking about other kinds of slavery that even when sort of like, you know, you were also talking about this, like even after, for example, you left the cult, you weren't like truly free. You didn't really truly know freedom. And there's so many of us who are living with this kind of experience where theoretically we are free. We're not theoretically enslaved by any particular, you know, like entity or so forth. But we are nonetheless not truly free. And we're enslaved by, let's say, our desires, our fears.

MARTHA: Addiction.

SAMIA: Addiction, you know. And so when you talk about, you know, freedom, true freedom being about knowing our worth, it makes sense to me because I'm remembering some of the stories of enslaved people who, even when they were physically enslaved, and, you know, one of the things that drove them to seek freedom, to free themselves from that physical enslavement was because they knew that's not who they truly were. That is not how they were meant to be and live, and they knew their true worth. And so that is what drove them to struggle, to be free in the ways that they were, people were attempting to contain them.

MARTHA: Yeah. So interesting.

SAMIA: Yeah. And it's like so also interesting, sort of like how I think this is part of what you are also getting at, that sometimes it's like when you're physically constrained in some way, like if you're physically enslaved, if you're... In some ways, it's like easier to… If you were to even recognize that you are enslaved, that you're not free, it's easier to recognize how that is true at that physical level. But it can be much more challenging to even recognize how we're not free at a mental, emotional, spiritual level. And then if and when you do recognize that, oh, what is really going on is I'm not free at this mental, emotional, spiritual level, then to get yourself out of that enslavement, you know, in some ways can be even more challenging than what you experience at a physical level.

MARTHA: So the physical part was easy compared to the other parts. And so in the same goes for unraveling, the unraveling, the physical stuff was a lot easier than unraveling the emotional, the spiritual, the, you know, the conscious level and subconscious level stuff, right, and on like the cellular level of how trauma sits in your body and things like that. That was much more difficult to unravel on my healing journey than the physical level.

SAMIA: Yeah, having, being someone who has experienced both at the physical level and then also at the non-physical level, this enslavement or lack of freedom. The, how you got free or understood freedom at a physical level, did that help you in some ways in getting yourself free at a mental, emotional, physical level or was that just a very, very, very different experience or process?

MARTHA: And so it was almost like the uncovering or like the layers of the artichoke or the onion, right? There's all these layers that you have to get to the core of what's really going on and what really needs the deepest healing. So as you're pulling away the layers and as you're doing the work and going inward, all of those layers are connected and all of those layers are part of who we are and how we function and the healing required. But you have to get, when you get down into the heart of it, that's generally the hardest work that we'll ever do. And that's the return to full self and understanding what that really means.

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I asked a question because I'm thinking of, you know, some of the lessons that I've learned on my own journey, but also like, you know, from a spiritual perspective. So I belong to the Muslim tradition, as in I'm a Muslim. And one of the practices that we engage in as Muslims is fasting. And it's meant to teach us stuff. Like you don't, fasting at the very surface level, it is, oh, you don't eat, you don't drink. There's different kinds of behaviors that are like, okay, I'm not gonna engage in these behaviors. Either there's like these different aspects of, you say, oh, this is what I'm fasting from, but really that's the most surface level way to understand what fasting is about. What it really is about is, it's like a way to help us grow and get to know ourselves better, get to know our worth better, get to know our strengths better by going through this process of fasting. And there's like teaching about how you fast at different levels of your being. So there is fasting you do at the physical level of your being, but then you also need to fast at a mental emotional level. And then there's also fasting at a spiritual level. And for a lot of us, unfortunately, we never get beyond the surface level of, we are so focused on the physical level, we never get beyond to the deeper levels. But you know, it's like, the theory is that what you experience at a physical level is supposed to help you with what you are to do at the mental-emotional level. And what you practice at the mental-emotional level helps you to learn what you're supposed to learn at the spiritual level. And so it is supposed to lead, one thing is supposed to help lead to the next thing. But like so often, like so many of us, as I was saying, we get stuck.

We never managed to graduate to the next level, get to the next layer of things. And so, and then, you know, it's sort of like, there is this sense of, oh, this doesn't really work. This doesn't really help. This, what is the point of doing this? Or if it does help, it's very limited. You know, the experience that you have of how much it helps is very limited. And so, you begin to doubt and devalue the practice. And this is part of, like, what makes so many people question the faith and even, like, leave the tradition if and when they leave, because they're like, whatever, it didn't really work. And what I've found is that a lot of times, it's because, yeah, you just, it's not that it doesn't work as a process or technique or whatever. It's that we never figured out how to move beyond from one layer to the next to the next. And I'm just wondering if you have any insight on how you can make sure you keep moving into these deeper layers of how we need to learn and grow.

MARTHA: Because healing is a process and life is a process. And I'm, I, the only thing that I know for sure is that things will still happen and I still will have to deal with them and I'll still have to grow through them and heal through them and process them. And that's the only thing that I know for sure. And I also know for sure that I'm never going to, I'm never consciously going to give up growing because there's always going to be layers. There's always going to be more. And so my answer for that question today is going to be very different than it may be in five or ten years because there's always work being done. And I'm understanding self better with every, with every, you know, thing that I continue to do to have introspection, to understand my relationship with creator and to understand my relationship to self, right? And what that really means. And so that it just understanding that it's a process and understanding that there's, and it's not, it's not an exact science. It doesn't work the same way for everyone. Everyone has a different healing journey because we all have different experiences. But understanding for everyone that healing is a process.

SAMIA: Yeah. And I loved also what you said about, like, the journey is still going and it's going to continue to, I mean, until, like, literally we are no more, at least in the context of this body.

MARTHA: Right?

SAMIA: In this world.

MARTHA: This physical being, right?

SAMIA: Yeah. Maybe it's just that, you know, realizing that as long as I'm alive, I'm growing to do, you know, I'm learning to do. And that's why I'm continuing to be alive in this body, in this context. And so it's like, if I'm feeling stuck, if I'm feeling like, oh, what more is there for me to learn? It's just, no, there is something. And it's just, it'll come, it'll come, the awareness will come. Like, once you start to ask the right questions, if you realize, oh, there's something more to learn than the awareness of what it is you need to learn will also come.

MARTHA: Exactly right. Yes.

SAMIA: Cool, cool, cool. So, it's like, wow. What's coming up for you now in terms of what you would love to share with us?

MARTHA: For me, it's a physical experience, but it's a very much a spiritual experience as well, right? And understanding the connection of all of that mind, body and spirit. So I, yeah, I'm just, I'm in awe of the opportunities that we get when we pay attention to all that we are and all of that we have the capacity to become. And so I'm on this very beautiful journey of this becoming and it's fun. And, you know, I hope that everybody that listens sees themselves through that lens, that there's always an opportunity to continue to step into self and understand what that means for you. And it's just a beautiful journey when you see it as that.

SAMIA: Yes, and you know what? You just made me think of one more question that I have for you. Tell me a little bit more about your understanding of and relationship with God. Because it's, I mean, it's my gosh, like for me, that is tied up with everything. You know, like, for example, when we think about the idea of love, freedom, you know, whatever, surrender, you mentioned, you know, it's all tied up and it's like interesting. So, for example, when we think about our relationship with God, like that has, by the way, also been like for me, one of the relationships that I've struggled with. And particularly in the context of like for me, in some ways, freedom, the freedom in the context of my power and control relationship. So, like for me, part of my trauma experience, like made me very, very averse to being controlled. Like if I felt I was being controlled, that was like a big problem for me. I did not want to be controlled. And when I thought about God, at least the way that I had grown up and been taught to relate to God, it was like, oh, God controls everything. God controls everyone, God. And I did not want to be controlled. And so you can imagine I developed a sort of troubled relationship with God who is in control of everything, including me, and not wanting to be controlled. And I'm just wondering like what it's been like for you to be in relationship with God and how you understand God. God, God's presence and God's role in your in your life. I mean, you have hinted at it and talked about it a little bit, but I'd love to know more.

MARTHA: And for me, God, I did exactly what you did after I left the cult. I was like, if control all those things, if that's God, I want far, far away from it, right? And so I ran in the other direction and I left anything that I knew was God because I had been hurt in the name of God for 26 years, right? So I ran. But as I was trying to do life on my own, know God, right? Because I don't need God because he's trying to control me and he hurts me and he lets the bad things happen to me and all those things.

I'm hurting myself and realizing that well, is God really the reason all those things happen to me, right? And so as I truly and slowly let my walls down as I started this healing process and I started exploring with an open mind, okay, well, who is God and who is God for me? Not who is God because of the cult, not who is God because of the church I go to or what my parents said, but who do I truly, who does Martha Glory truly believe that God is? And what I have come to understand for me and for me only, I don't care what anybody else believes, I love you the same. You know, I was married to a Muslim, I go to a non-denominational Christian church, like I don't have a judgment for anybody else. This is for me only. For me, God is not religion. For me, God is love. For me, I am created in the image of God because I am love. And that is what I am to give back to the world, right? And so when I think of the essence of God, I think of love. I think of my personal, I think that the problem is when you go away from it being a personal relationship and it becomes a religious relationship, you are actually giving your power over to people, not to God, because God is not the rituals and the rules and all of those things, right? That was man. That's man created. So my relationship stays very personal. And I think that if you think of good versus evil on the very layman, like non-complicated, simplest way, don't hurt people. Always act out of love. And if you do, you're not going to kill, you're not going to steal, you're not going to, like all of the Ten Commandments or any of the other things that we say that God says don't do, right? If you act out of love, you're not going to do those things. You're not going to cheat on your husband or a wife. You're not going to be gluttonous. You're not going to be, right? Like all of those things. If you're acting out of love, you're not going to do those things. Not because God said, don't do those things in the Bible or the Koran or any of the Torah or any of those things, but because that's not acting out of love. If I believe that I am loved because I was created by love, by source, then I want to act in that way. Does that answer your question?

SAMIA: Yes. I love that answer from you. That is an amazing insight and an amazing, it's, it's beautiful wisdom. And I think I will resist asking you more questions for right now. Oh gosh, Martha, any other last thoughts you want to share with us right now?

MARTHA:

SAMIA: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much again. And to all of our audience, my last reminder to you is to please make sure you check the show notes, because we will be dropping Martha's links in there so you can connect with her, continue to learn with her, and get the help and support you need whenever you're ready for it. And until we connect next time, I wish you lots and lots of peace and joy.