Sex and the Shy Girl: The 3-Step Method to Sexual Confidence.

Sex and the Shy Girl:
The 3-Step Method to Sexual Confidence.
With Fiona Cutts & Samia Bano

Shyness holding you back from having the #deeperconnection and #funandease you desire in your relationships?

Want to develop more #SexualEmpowerment?

Listen now to this interview with Fiona Cutts, #Author, #Healer, #Coach, to understand where #shyness comes from and what happens when you're shy, especially with sex.

Plus, discover Fiona's 3-Step method to #SexualConfidence!

Note: sexual shyness can have unhealthy roots such as trauma and lack of #SexEducation. Learn how confronting and releasing #sexualshame can #UnlockConfidence, joy, and deeper #emotionalconnection.

Learn more and connect with Fiona now at: https://www.facebook.com/fiona.cutts.3

Join Fiona's Facebook Group: bit.ly/SexandTheShyGirlFBGroup

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

#IntimacyAwareness #HealingJourney #BreakingTaboos #ShyToConfident #TraumaHealing #MindBodyConnection #InnerHealing #SexualWellness #FromShameToStrength #SexPositivity #OpenConversations #HealingFromAbuse #ConfidenceInBed #SexualHealing #OvercomingShame #PleasureWithoutFear #EmpoweredIntimacy #SexualFreedom #HealthyRelationships

Here's the audio version of this episode:

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Full Video Transcript

SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Dzień Dobry! It's so good to be with you again. And I know you'll be so happy to have joined us today because we have a very cool guest with us, and that is Fiona Cutts, who's an author and healer and coach. And I'll actually first of all say, welcome, Fiona, and then ask you to tell us more about who you are and what you do.

FIONA: Thank you so much. I feel I need to be saying thank you in, like, 10 different languages. So, I mean, I'm in Ecuador, so I'll just go with gracias... So I have a business called Sex and the Shy Girl, and I empower ladies who are shy with sex to be become sexually confident women. And I think, as always with these things, it's largely based on my own journey. So I was shy with everything in my life. At one point, I was so shy, I could scarcely say my name in a room full of people. So to actually be able to come and jump on a podcast and write a book and talk about sex openly is kind of a miracle in terms of a big transformation.

SAMIA: Yes. You know, I really connected with your story and the way that you talk about sex because I can also relate to the shyness part and, like, not also being very generally shy. Like, I was very socially awkward in all kinds of ways. And, you know, it, talking about sex especially was a huge taboo. And so, like, in now, when I say it was a huge taboo, I'm talking about at that time, when I was growing up, I was living in India and in Pakistan in the Middle East. My family's moved around a bit, but in each of those cultures, as we moved around, one thing that was very consistent is very socially conservative in terms of, like, like sex. It's, like, so strange. You know, it's, like, ironic because we have, like, these people who... We have, like, some of the largest populations in the world, right. I mean, there's like, literally almost 2 billion Muslims also, you know, coming from Muslim family, there's billion and a half Indians, there' like 250 something million Pakistanis. I mean, and these are all the identities and communities that I belong to. So clearly, we're having lots of sex…

FIONA: Yep…

SAMIA: But not willing to talk about it.

FIONA: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

SAMIA: It's just crazy. So tell me a little bit more. I know that you recently came out with a book, and I know it's a brilliant book and I would love you to tell us more about it.

FIONA: Yeah, sure. So the book's called the same as My business, "Sex and the Shy Girl". And the sort of tagline is a three step method to sexual confidence. And I actually wrote the book really easily and quickly after I read somewhere that a good way to write a book is to have five parts. And I'm like, oh, well, I have three. The three step method. And then it very quickly became clear that, that the first two parts would be like, well, where does shyness come from and what happens when you're shy with sex? So I kind of had my five part book and wrote it very quickly. But I can start at the beginning and just talk a little bit. And it's interesting because you talked about your book culture and background. So my culture and background is British and it's like, no sex please, we're British. So in, well, in different ways it's like literally in my family we never talked about sex. I mean, we never talked about anything controversial or emotional, to be honest. But sex was maybe the most controversial and potentially the most emotional. And so I had no sex education at all. But being very aware, I picked up that basically it was bad to do sex, bad to be sexual, that I needed to be married and kind of be my, like my mum in a way, a non sexual being, but somehow, somehow managed to have two kids. It's like, it's still a mystery to me how she did that. I don't think I've ever heard my mum talk about anything remotely to do with sex. So that was and so that was part of what created my shyness. I'd say. The other big factor was the way that my dad treated me. So my dad was a very, very stern, critical man and he was critical about everything. I mean, to me and to my brother. And we both actually learned to basically stay quiet, stay beneath the radar and become perfect.

SAMIA: Right.

FIONA: Sounds funny now. How do you become perfect? So I was actually quite good at shutting up and being perfect because I needed to. When I was little it was like, it was a good strategy when I was little, the problem was for me that I was still acting from that actually decades later. It's like I only really addressed this properly, I would say, when I actually became 40 and became very ill.

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, gosh, first of all, thank you so much for sharing that part of your journey. I've had my own challenges as well, you know, as a young child. I'm actually a survivor of child sexual abuse. So that really messed me up. And you know, like, it was really difficult because one of the things that made it so difficult is the fact that we don't talk about sex. And so, you know, what I went through in terms of the sexual abuse, I had no idea what I was experiencing. What I had no words for it. And it wasn't until I was in my teens, like mid teens, I think I was 14, almost 15 years old, before I happened to come across a magazine that was talking about child sexual abuse. My first exposure to the idea, and I was like, oh, I think this is what happened to me. And finally I had some language to talk about it. But other than that, it's like no one talks about not the positive side of sexual relations. You don't hear anything about sexual health issues. You don't hear anything about the abuse that can happen or, you know, the, that dark side of things. And so you're, you know, you just, I just felt so alone and so lost and unable to understand what was happening to me. So it was that. And then also, you know, just that, you know, that idea of like, on the one hand you have to be like, you're expected to be so pure and so asexual as it were, because to show any kind of provocative behavior, any kind of sexual behavior, be sexually outgoing, like, that's considered a big no, no, in our conservative culture. And but at the same time, you know, it's like, oh, you're being groomed to get married. And basically the expectation is you get married, you have kids, you know, as soon as possible, and you go, it's. And so you're. And it's sort of like, we also have this like gender segregation thing going on in my culture. Like, certainly when I lived in India and Pakistan and even in the Middle East, I was in a very gender segregated context. Like, that was my normal. And so I like, didn't... Other than the men and the boys in, in my family, I didn't even really have any boys or men who I interacted with or felt comfortable interacting with. Yeah, you know, they were like completely like sort of kind of foreign creatures. And that's like the norm for most of like my sister, if you talk to her, thank God she did not have to go through any kind of sexual abuse. But you talk to her and she shares about how, you know, she like, didn't know how to talk to boys either. And it was like so difficult and awkward for us. Like after we came to America and we started going to school over here and in her case, and college in my case, and now suddenly you are in this environment where it' mixed gender and you know, dating is normal and you know, like people flirting with each other and it's like just this whole new world. Yes, it was like difficult for me from my traumatized place, but it was even difficult for my sister, you know, from her not particularly traumatized place. So it's, yeah.

FIONA: And actually what I want to say is because when you look at my story or your sister's story and you kind of compare with your story, of course it's like you've had the most extreme trauma which no child or should ever, ever, ever experience. But actually for myself with my British upbringing and your sister with the upbringing you just described without the full on abuse, we're still receiving abuse. Actually for me not to be told about becoming a sexual being, not to be told anything is actually a form of abuse because I then went out into the world you described of dating and was really floundering. And you know, I can imagine how even more so for you and your sister with that more extreme upbringing. But it's like even without the extreme of abuse that you had, we have all experienced some kind of abuse in that we're unprepared for these massive changes in our body, unprepared for what it is to be with boys and young men. And that is actually a form of abuse. And I love seeing my friends who have kids, so I don't have children, but I love to see them being really different actually with their kids than I ever experienced. Because that's one of the things that will start to change how we are.

SAMIA: Yes, yes. You know, like one of the things that I found here in America, I mean, sexual health education... I mean it's still a difficult thing here like even for like normal white American folks. By normal, I mean like the dominant cultural normal in that context.

FIONA: Yes.

SAMIA: It's still a significant issue where I mean, in some ways, you know, certain things have been standardized in terms of there's like usually a sex ed class that you are expected to go through at some point in I think usually it's in middle school or so forth. And so you get a minimal amount of learning in that context. But I've heard like so much debate and discussion among parents about well, what kind of sex like they like when you actually begin to look at what is actually being taught in the context of these sex ed classes. It's not like an easy answer that everyone agrees on. There's wide discrepancies. Like if do you include education about contraception? When you're talking to teenagers and there are many parents who are like, oh, no, all we want our kids to be taught is about abstinence and that's it. You know, we don't want them to learn about things like contraception. And it's just, you know, and same thing with issues of, like, abuse. Well, are you going to educate them about how to be safe, you know, in the context of experience, possibly experiencing abuse in their relationships if they do happen to get involved... And a lot of parents are afraid of introducing those topics to their kids as well. So even over here in America, where it's supposed to be more open and, you know, all of that, it's still very challenging for people to talk about sex.

FIONA: Yeah, it's really interesting that the culture that you come from and... But by the way, I actually lived in India for several years and traveled, so I kind of have a sense of that, you know, from an outsider's perspective. I have a sense of that culture. And but it's really interesting. Even in Western countries, it's like sex is probably the most judged thing on our planet and people have such strong ideas about it that it is a minefield to know what to say to people. And, yeah. So…

SAMIA: Yeah, and I think one of the oftentimes misconceptions people have is that when they think about, oh, we're going to engage in sex, like if you say, okay, I want to get some education when it comes to sex, when it comes to sexuality, people just immediately think, oh, you're going to learn how to have sex. You're going to learn about the actual doing of, you know, the sexual positions, postures, etc., etc., But actually, like, and that's something really that I love and appreciate about your work and approach and the way you have written your book is that, you know, you realize, oh, no, there's actually so much more. So much of it has to do with our relationship with ourselves and then our relationship with other people that. And in contexts that are not sexual. And, you know, then you may get to, you know, also talk about at the end, like, third step about how to actually engage in sex. So tell me a bit more about the first two parts or let's start with one part at a time. Tell me more about the first half of the book.

FIONA: Yes, yeah. So as I said, there are three parts to the way that I work with women who are shy with sex. And this is what I realized I went through. And of course, when I went through it, I had no idea I was going through it. I was just living my life and kind of fumbling along. But I was able to see it afterwards. And what I see is the first step, and I now call it foreplay. But the first step actually has nothing to do with anyone else. As you say, the first step is about literally reacquainting yourself with you and your body. And so we have a chronic disease on the planet at the moment of people being in their heads. And I love to say. And I well, I say it because I believe it's true, is that shyness is a degree of a disease of the head. It's like when we're shy, we have all these thoughts going round and round, basically, like I had because of my dad and because of the way I was brought up. It's like I had a lot of, you're not good enough. And it led to me kind of hiding away and being quiet but internalizing all this stuff. I'm not good enough. Or when I was older, it was, look at me... I mean, I'm really slim, and I always was, but my dad was like, you're too slim, you're too big, you're too little, you're too fat, you're too thin. All this stuff in my head. And here's the thing. It's like, when you're in your head, you can't enjoy sex because sex happens in the body. So the way that I work with the women I work with is to give them different exercises to come out of the sort of torment of the head into the body. And I can give you just a really, really simple thing that anybody listening to this can do immediately, and that actually is to be out in nature. So nature, kind of like this sounds such a funny thing to say, but nature doesn't have a head. It's like nature just is. So when we come into nature, it invites us to come down into our bodies, to relax into who we truly are. And who we truly are isn't someone who spends their time in their head. Who we truly are is somebody who's embodied. So that's a very, very quick way that I pretty much use every day. I'm very fortunate to be living out in a beautiful place, but every day I make sure I spend time outside and literally invite myself to really really inhabit my body. And yeah, it creates a miracle with your sex life, but it also creates a miracle in terms of living the whole of your life.

SAMIA: Yes. Yes. You know, that makes me think of two things that I would love to follow up with you on. The first is, you know, first of all, I'm so on board with you about the need for us to connect, feel connected with our body. Because even beyond the moment when you're having or engaging in sex, you know, like, you need to be connected with your body so that you know how to listen to what it needs, you know.

FIONA: Yes.

SAMIA: And it's like that includes by the being able to listen to your body in terms of, like, when you're around certain people and who you feel good and safe with, comfortable with, versus not. And oftentimes we will ignore those signals from our body because we're just being too much in our head. And not just that we are being too much in our head, but we are being that critical self, you know, like self judging, self deprecating. If you're in that kind of mindset, then whatever feedback your body might try to give you about what will help you to be safe and comfortable and happy, you tend to ignore that…

FIONA: I would say. I mean, I would even go beyond that and say it's not even that you ignore it. It's like when you're in your head, it becomes so difficult to hear what your body's saying. And your body will somehow give that your information. If there is someone you're considering dating or being sexual with and they're not safe for you, your body will tell you that one way or another. But if you're too far up here in your head, and it's really, really hard to hear that information from your body when you're in your head.

SAMIA: That's right. That's right. And I mean, even in terms of like, if you are engaging in a sexual act with someone but you're not in your body. Like, I'm thinking of the scene in this movie. It was in some ways very sad scene, but basically it was this character of this lady doctor. And she was like, so, like in the grind of the work and she was so depressed actually, even various levels, because, you know, like, she liked, loved being able to help people, like in terms of her patients, but that is not what she was getting to do. She was spending all her time, like, you know, she was in a setting where, you know, they were like, forcing the doctors to be constantly, like, machines like, oh, you can't spend time, too much time with any one person. You have to get them in and out and fill out all this paperwork and work extra hours, this and that. Anyway, so she was just going through like, this hugely. Like, she wasn't feeling, like, good at all, but also like, in terms of like, her mental health, you know, it was just not good. And anyway, so she was looking for some way to, like, feel something, to have some experience of pleasure, some experience of happiness because, you know, it was like, otherwise so bad for her. And so one of the ways that she tried to feel something good was by having sex with a fellow doctor. But in this scene, it was like, just so sad. Is like they're in their office, like just, you know, close the door kind of a thing, and he just comes in and the thing was that he is like right in the middle of doing whatever they were doing. He's also like, trying to manipulate her with, oh, by the way, I need you to take my shift. And you know, like. And that would require her to work overtime, own holiday and this and that, and manipulating her, like, emotions right in the middle of…

FIONA: Charming.

SAMIA: You know, and it was just crazy. And here's this lady and she's like. Like, you could see like, in the scene where on the one hand, you know, her body was experiencing something, but at the same time, like, where is her mind? And is she actually being able to feel happy? Is she actually being able to pleasure in that context? No, because she wasn't truly in her body. She was still very much in her head and worrying about things. And, you know, just... It was just like one of those scenes that just... I mean, it's sometimes I still think about it and it's like, oh, my God, that's so sad. But when you talk about, you know, being in your body that, like, for me is like, what I'm immediately came to my mind in terms of, like, how important it is to be in your, to be in your body.

FIONA: Yeah.

SAMIA: Yeah. Okay. So that was one thing, and then what was the other thing?

FIONA: And I was just thinking, I mean, what a great example you gave. Because actually we tend to think of something like that as kind of an extreme example. But actually, how much is that? And actually I talk about this in my book, my own experience. It's like just kind of bad sex where you're just not relating to the other person. You're not connected. And it's like... It's not dramatic, but in another way. It's the way that a lot of people are having sex, I think, on the planet at the moment. And yeah, there's so much more that's possible for both parties, for the man and the woman.

SAMIA: That's right. That's right. Yeah. Like, thinking about all the... I mean, it's just really sad. There was another.. Now, you know, when you talk about it, as you talk about it, another thing, I'm thinking this was actually lady who was making jokes, but she was like, yeah. You know, like in my marriage, we never say I love you. We never do public displays of affection or for that matter, even privately. But, you know, we have our three kids, so things happen. But, you know, it's like... But the emotional connection is not really there. You know, there isn't like, context of a broader loving relationship, affectionate relationship. But it's like she was also making joke about how, like, that's the norm. Like, that is what you're to expect, especially like, in marriages where you've been married for a long time. I mean, she was joking about it, but it's kind of sad.

FIONA: I agree. It's funny because I suppose that I chose to do what? To have sex and the shy girl as my business I just feel really strongly that we're here. We have these bodies. Let's enjoy them. But it's not just about enjoying our bodies. It's like in order to be able to enjoy our bodies with somebody else, we have to first of all be connected to us. We have to be connected to ourselves, and then we can have that connection with someone else. But actually, what a beautiful thing to actually be able to enjoy our bodies. And it sometimes surprises me that more people on the planet aren't in a way interested in that, you know, the person you just described is just like, oh, well, it doesn't happen. Never mind. I'll enjoy. I mean, I'm kind of joking, but I'll enjoy my lunch and Netflix instead. No. What if we could just didn't really truly enjoy our bodies and enjoy them with someone else.

SAMIA: Yeah. And I wonder if it's that people are not interested or it's that they don't know or they don't know, or they don't believe that there's any other better option because. Or how to go about trying to create some better experience, you know, because, like, for me, I would have had no idea at all. You know, certainly, like, until I started college here in America, like, I had so little exposure to even having any kind of conversations with people about issues of sex, sexual health, etc... I wouldn't even have, I mean, it's like you don't even know what you don't know, you know. And so it's like you just, I mean, like for me, I was just existing in this state of... Okay. I mean, I'm just what is you know, and just kind of dealing with it. And so, like for me, it was like the thing that changed was in college, happily, I was in a college, in a university where they were actually offering courses and classes. Well, I was a psychology major and we actually had certain classes within the psychology department where we were learning about... Where we got the opportunity to learn about sexuality, sexual health and stuff. And those courses were optional, so it's not like everyone took them. But I at least had that opportunity to do it, and I took that opportunity. And so it started to, like for me, like, open my mind and just begin gave me something from, like a point to start learning at least and enhancing my understanding. And it was like a huge game changer, you know, like, in terms of, like, we keep coming back to, like, the idea of, it starts with our relationship with ourself, you know, and so, like I feel so much better about me and about my body.

FIONA: And I love that. It's like, I just want to acknowledge you and what you've chosen with your background, with your experience. It's like... And this is what I see as well, with the work that I do with different ladies. And I suppose it's like my story that I've changed from being so shy that I'm now an advocate of this work. But it's like, here you are talking in such a relaxed way about sex and shyness and bodies and everything. And it's like, I just really want to acknowledge you for that because a lot of... Well, a lot of people from all of our cultures, it's like all of the cultures around the world, I would say, have something kind of crazy or skewed around sex, and yet we can choose to move beyond it. And I just want to acknowledge that in you.

SAMIA: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, because one thing that I experienced in these classes that I took on campus, for example, was like, what are we like when you start to... I think context does matter. I think, you know, a lot of times, like, I think what maybe we're afraid of or when we don't have a good experience talking about sex is like, a lot of times, if you do talk about sex in your friends and family circles, it's in context where people are making jokes or people are talking. And it's like the blind trying to lead the blind. And so people are talking, and maybe they're trying to help each other, but they're not really able to because they don't know any better themselves, like that kind of thing. And so people end up oftentimes having very negative experiences trying to talk about sex in general, and they're among friends and family. And so I think context does matter. Like, for me, it was really helpful that the first time that I got exposed to talking about these kinds of issues, it was in an educational setting, you know, and, you know, we... There was like a certain, like you know, we took a certain... Like we took like, the... It was like, you know, I mean, it's just, it was just like the... I'm trying to find the right words. Like, there's a certain seriousness with which the issues were being considered, not just in terms of, like, emotional seriousness, but the fact that, you know, what we were looking at is like, they're looking at, like, different aspects of research that, for example, has actually been done and what are the research findings. And so you're not... So you get a feeling of like, okay, people are not just making stuff up. There are some basis on which these opinions or these perspectives have been formed or these ideas that we're being offered to think about and look into. There's some kind of basis for that. And, you know, research is going to, you know, like, if you're really interested, you can continue to explore the research and stuff. I think my main point is that, you know, I think that the context matters in which we have talks about sex. And to do it in a context where we're doing it in a serious way. Not serious, like, in a bad serious way, but in a good serious way, you know, and you're not. You can because they were there. One of the things we were learning about this, there's so many myths when it comes to sex, when it comes to sexuality. And because people don't talk about these things, they don't have actual proper information. And so there's so many myths. And it's just actually some of the videos that they showed us of like, people talking about different things that they believe about sex and sexual acts, it was sounding so wild, like, how could people believe this stuff? But actually people did believe it.

FIONA: It's really interesting because one of the things that I offer to ladies, and this is completely free, it's not the paid work. I do have a community basically for women who consider themselves shy with sex. And so I'm in the community every day and I'm just asking questions. And some of them are things like, how do you feel about your body? But some of them are more in there in terms of sex. You know, what kind of things do you like? And what people continually say to me. And it's like, it's people. It's like within the group, there are some people who actually don't consider themselves shy, but just like sex. And they're like, yeah, I'll come in and support you. So they're kind of in there answering all the questions, but there are women in the group who never say a thing. And then I kind of message them them individually. And I said, well, how are you getting on? And they're like, Fiona, we love your group. We don't dare say anything, but we absolutely love it. And they find that things are starting to change for them because they're around people who are more relaxed text. They're finding out. Well, they're finding out about sex because as you say, it's like sometimes we have these kind of crazy ideas. And I say crazy, but it's like, because we don't talk about it, all kinds of things can be believed. And it's like just coming into the group and seeing other people talking about it much more naturally. And it's like I ask the questions and then I answer them and then I answer people. And it's like people are like, oh, thank you, Fiona. We're already be way more relaxed. And that relaxation already leads to more pleasure because you can imagine if you're like me or, you know, like you before the education. It's like we've had these kind of crazy upbringings around sex. Of course we're not going to be relaxed in our body because we're kind of like this all tense. And then it's like starting to relax in itself will allow us to actually have better sex, even if we do nothing else. You know, even if we do no three step method or anything. Just starting to relax a little bit around it will alter the quality of our experience.

SAMIA: Yes. You know, I was reading a book by a sexologist lady and one of the things that she said that really hit me was, you know, a lot of the problems people have in the context of their sexual relations, they come down to like the fact that we are just being very critical and judgmental of ourselves, first of all, but then also oftentimes of our partners and if we even were to just let go of, you know, our judgmental mindset first of all with regards to ourselves, but then also extend that same grace to our partners. Like most of the problems couples tend to experience in the context of their sexual relations would go away they would just go away.

FIONA: I love that you say that because I believe that too. And in a way, it's like there are so many... It's like I have this kind of three step method. It sounds so easy, three steps. But the three steps have so many layers to them. And so this is one of the things that occurs when you come out of your head into your body actually. Where does the judgment take place? It absolutely takes place in our heads. If we were actually embodied, we wouldn't be judging, we'd just be enjoying. And, and the, the thing also about sex is that the way that we are is an invitation to our partners. So if we're embodied, we invite our partners to be embodied. Even if our partners are kind of judgy and shy or whatever, us being embodied is an invitation to them to be more embodied too.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. Because oftentimes the best way you can influence someone is actually by being a great model of what you want and what you desire.

FIONA: Oh, I love that you say that. And that's it. Because it's like I kind of started Sex and the Shy Girl two years ago. And I'll be completely honest with you, the name came and I was like, oh, that's a great name. I'm going to do that business. And that sounds funny, but it's like, I mean, I wanted to do this kind of work anyway, but the name came first. But what I've discovered is that it's actually a really good strategy to empower women rather than, I mean, I think the work that other people do with men is great, but empowering women is really powerful because it's like actually when a woman is empowered, it can change her partner too, but in a kind of a soft way, as you say, because we don't go in there saying, hey, you're being judgmental. It's like, no, we're embodied. We're clearer about what we desire and it kind of changes our partners too.

SAMIA: Yes. You know, so I want to come back a little bit and explore more the idea of shyness itself also, because when we're talking about, you know, being more in our bodies, communicating more effectively, etc., the idea of shyness is of course connected to all of this. And I know this is something that you talk about in your work. Like we, when we use the word shy, we can be talking about very different emotional experiences under that same label. And like, for me, like I have come to understand that there's a shyness you can have that is natural to your character and that's just totally fine and even healthy for you to have. But then, you know, there's emotional experiences that we have that we also label shy that can be coming from a not so healthy place. And I'm hoping to talk to you more about that.

FIONA: Yes, it's something that I've thought about a lot. I mean, obviously in terms context of my work. And here's what I see that the shyness as a, I mean, I'm going to just use a really strong word, but as a kind of a pathology or like I say, I sometimes say it's a disease of the head. So I use very strong words because actually when we are shy, it's really about not believing that we're as good as other people. It's about berating ourselves, second guessing ourselves. And none of that is actually true for any of us. It's like we're not the people who are lesser than other people. We're not the people who are unsure about ourselves. So that is what I'm looking to change. But for most of the women I work with, and for me as well, if we identify if we are shy, we're likely to have a natural sensitivity. And that natural sensitivity is really beautiful. And I wouldn't ever try to change it. I mean, to be honest, I have tried to change it in myself, but I can't, I can't change it because it's who I am. It's like sometimes I'm like, I wish I was tougher, I wish I was this. And it's like, no, I can't do that. It's like I have this sensitivity and I have to honor that. And honestly, I see that with most of the women who work with me. I mean, I guess we tend to work with people who kind of mirror ourselves. And I see that, that we're naturally sensitive and kind of have this kind of beautiful sensitivity, but it can kind of become changed into feeling that we're less than other people undervaluing ourselves. And it's that we need to change. It's not the core of who we actually are that we need to change.

SAMIA: Yes, yes. Because, you know, this is like something I found really interesting. Like once I started getting into sexual ed or sexual education, very interestingly, I started to also look into more of our own cultural and religious traditions. And I tried to be like, "Hey, what if anything, do our traditions teach us?" And turns out that, for example, in Islamic teachings there is, there's like a lot of teachings, a lot of material that you can look at which relates to sexual health that talks about sex and sexuality. And a lot of this is directly from the time of the Prophet. And the Prophet engaging in dialogue about issues of sex and sexuality with his companions, including women companions. And you know, so apparently turns out that 1,400 years ago, the Muslim community around the Prophet Muhammad, they were very open in some ways in talking about issues of sex and sexuality. And you know, because... And they especially came to the Prophet a lot of times to ask him for questions to clarify and answer questions that they had because they trusted him as a source of knowledge and information. You know, and I remember this one specific incident that was described in this one particular story that was told about the Prophet where they were talking about sec. How people have sexual dreams. And the Prophet actually mentioned that women can have sexual dreams too. And one of the women was like, what is really prophet? And he was like, yeah, absolutely. You know, and so, and you know, when he... And then he went on to describe some of the symptoms or like some of like what you can experience. And it was like, you know, this is all normal. This is actually sex and engaging, being able to engage in sexual relationships. It's like, it's beautiful experience and it's something that's like a gift from God actually for us. And so it's not something for us to be ashamed of, you know, really, but the thing that you do want to do as a Muslim is that you want to make sure that you're following some moral, ethical guidelines and how you engage in sexual relations and with whom and in what context. So that, you know, you create a context of people acting in a way that's responsible and promotes safety for everyone and makes it something that's an actual act of love and an expression of actual love and care for each other rather than, you know, just... Yeah, you know, not that…

FIONA: Oh, it's just the words that came into my head. Just random sex. And it's really interesting what you say, because sometimes people will say to me, so what happens when you heal your sexual shyness? And the answer is that there isn't one path for everybody. And I was just thinking about what you said in the context of, you know, of being Muslim. It's like, actually, if you heal your shyness around sexual sex, then most likely you'll want to choose to behave sexually in a way that honors your religion, and so that. That will be part of your path.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FIONA: And, you know, for somebody else, it may be that, I don't know, their healed version of their sexuality may turn out to be completely different. But actually, what happens when we do this work to become confident with sex is that we become clear on what's true for us. So it's like the Muslim lady may be like, you know what? I'm clear on this. And this is very clearly within how I've been brought up and the ethics of how I've been brought up. But this is me in my reality. My husband isn't imposing on me. No, this is what I see for me. And that can be, say, the same for me more in my culture that as a. Well, as a Western woman who has given no guidance on sex. It's like through the years, I've come to my own sense of what's true for me sexually, and now I've chosen to share it with the world in a book. And... But it's like, I'm not expecting that everybody who reads my book is like, oh, yes, I'm becoming like Fiona. No, why should people become like me? It's like, what can occur when we go on this journey is that we get really clear what's true for us, and we're willing to take the steps to have that sexual reality for us.

SAMIA: Yes. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, in our cultures, all of our cultures, we do value like, marriage, for example, as an institution. We do value having families, like, having children. And so why not have that be done in a way that creates the best experience for all of us? And, you know, if you're not educated, you're not informed about issues of sex, sexual health, sexuality, then, you know, we really compromise our ability to have healthy, happy relationships, to have healthy, happy families and so forth. You know, you, like you were saying, I mean, I'm sure our parents did their best, but again, they themselves went through certain lack of education, and no one talked to them about sex and sexual health either. And so, like, you know, you can't pass down to your children what you don't know yourself. Like, you know, that kind of thing. And so it's like, I see this a lot where also, you know, like, when, like recent, in the recent years, I've had a number of my cousin sisters who have gotten married. And it's like, who's talking to them about what to expect and how to understand what's going to happen in their lives and what could happen in their lives in the context of their sexual relationships? Because that's, I mean, again, for most of us, no one's talked to us about it, and yet here we are being encouraged and pushed into this into this relationship. And so this is one of the reasons why I want to have these conversations as well, is because, like the last time one of my cousins was getting married, I sent her a recording of an interview I did with another podcast. I was like, oh, by the way, just check out this interview I did. It gives some really good information about how you can understand certain aspects of, you know, how people express themselves sexually and stuff. We were talking about having different blueprints, like, different sexual blueprints in that particular episode. And then I also referred them to some other, like, good books and stuff that I have. And I was like, you know, just come on, this is like, really going to be important. So just take some time. Watch the video, read the book.

FIONA: Yeah, and maybe it's a good point because we, I mean, I love this conversation, but we kind of talked about the first step in my system. Maybe now's the time for me just to say a little bit about the second part. And the second part, I call me Play. So again, the second part actually is nothing to do with anybody else. It does become a little bit more or much more sexy in the second part. It's like the first part was all about sort of coming into your body, nothing to do with sex. The second part, I call me Play. And the easiest way to describe it is that it's mindful masturbation. But as soon as I say the M word, not the mindful bit, but the masturbation bit. I then have to kind of backtrack because masturbation has such a bad reputation for all kinds of reasons because we. We tend to learn to touch ourselves kind of dirty and quick. And it's like we've. I mean, I was never told it was wrong, but somehow I knew it was wrong. It's like, I don't think anybody needed to tell me. It was just obvious from the way I was brought up. And so what I do is I give the ladies I work with, I give them different exercises that are designed to get them into contact with the whole of their body. Because I guess my point of view is that, yes, we have parts of our body that obviously are super sexy. The, you know, vagina, breasts. But it's like, what if the whole of our body can be a pleasure zone? And so I give the ladies exercises that kind of get them to connect with their whole bodies. So it gets them to connect with their arms, their legs, but it also gets them to connect with the vagina with their breasts. And what that starts to do is it starts to kind of normalize, if you like, the sexual parts of our body. And it's like... And so we no longer have this thing of here's our body, but somehow our sexy bits are over here and not to be talked about. It's like, no, we get to kind of come into contact with our whole body, normalize our relationship with our body. And that normalization means that we start to love our body even more. It starts to take away the kind of all the stuff that we were talk taught about masturbation and about the sexy bits. And it brings us to this space where we start to have way more awareness of what's actually true for us sexually and sensually. But it also brings us to this place where we've woken up the whole of our body so we're able to give ourselves pleasure. That, yes, may include a climactic clitoral orgasm, but that orgasm is likely to include the whole body. So we're kind of coming to sex with another person in a way where we're way more informed about our body. I mean, you were talking about women from your culture who know nothing, but actually to start to know this level of detail about what turns you on and have little judgment about it. I mean, imagine going to sex with another person with all of that rather than no knowledge at all. So it's a really empowering place to be.

SAMIA: Yes, I hear you, I hear you. And I think in, also in terms of knowing our body, I mean, like, for me, a lot of it also just comes down to just being able to have a really healthy relationship with ourselves, right. So, I mean, this is just like a lot of times, you know, like the other person I was talking to, their sexologist that we interviewed on our on the show. I don't know if you talked about this during the interview or it was just one of the conversations we were having outside, but we were talking about how, like, sometimes, you know, we can actually be starved. Like people can get starved for touch. Like, you know, and we're not necessarily even talking about touching in a very particularly sexual way, but even just, you know, loving embrace, you know, just being able to put your arms around somebody, give them a hug, like that, you know, or you know, just very gentle ways of interacting with each other, but also with ourselves. And a lot of times people are just so... We're so disconnected from our bodies that, you know, you can literally feel starved for touch and sometimes you don't even realize, oh, that is what I'm missing.

FIONA: Yes. And I think as well, it's like for, let's use the word, sensitive women, you know, so when we've healed the shyness, but we're still sensitive. It's like for a lot of us, we actually, in order to be sexual with someone, we actually require quite a lot of what I call kind touch and touch that we don't even normally consider erotic. But in a way, that's what we've been giving that all in every way. It's what we've been starting to learn to give ourselves in this stage too. It's like we start to give ourselves kind touch, and that includes the sexual parts of our body. But it's like that's often what we require when we're with our lover, our husband. We require that somebody spends time with all of us. Really making us feel safe is like sensitive women tend to need to feel really safe before they can relax into sex. And actually we have to create that for ourselves first. It's like we're creating that safe space for ourselves with these. This somatic touch so we can relax with ourselves. And then that makes it way more likely that we can relax with someone else, but that someone else has to be able to reach out to us and actually be the presence that we can feel relaxed with.

SAMIA: Yes, yes, yes, that makes sense. That makes sense.

FIONA: Can say, listen up, any men who are listening to this.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. And I think, I mean, this is something like people say that can often be like a gender difference in terms of how, like, generally speaking, obviously nothing holds true for everyone, but we're talking about dominant patterns in terms of people's experiences when it comes down to any kind of behavior. And so people often say that, you know, like with women especially, like you said, the more sensitive of women, you need the more extended periods of foreplay, of just being able to cuddle, being able to, you know, create this context where you feel safe and comfortable, whereas it seems like most men don't need that as much. But this is actually something that in the Islamic literature, when you begin to look at it, the Prophet talked about it a lot where he was always encouraging the men to be more mindful of the needs of the women in their lives and treating them in a way, you know, like part of how you show respect to your partner and true love for your partner is that you're not just about satisfying your own needs, meeting your own needs, but you're also considerate about what your partner needs and treating them in a way that makes them feel really good and allows them to, you know, just really meet their needs as well. So this is like something really, really important and just comes down to the core of, you know, what is required for a healthy relationship. Yeah. And I love that you, you, you know, you talk about, you start that with yourself because I can totally see how, I can totally see how, like, if you don't even know that is, like if you're not used to giving yourself the love, you're not familiar with your own needs, your own responses, how can... Again, you don't know what you don't know. So then you can't ask for what you know either.

FIONA: Yes.

SAMIA: Yeah.

FIONA: Yeah. And there's kind of. There can be a kind of an irony that sometimes women will kind of give themselves kind of a quick orgasms, and then they're like, well, why does my man not do that for me? And I was like, hey, hang on a minute. What are you doing for yourself? It's like, we have to. It's almost like. I like to see it like this. It's like that in stage two, we're kind of investigating our own body with a sort of loving curiosity. But when we come to stage three, we're actually in, we're actually being present with someone else's body with loving curiosity. And that is what we are kind of hoping for or asking for or demonstrating as you said earlier we're kind of modeling that, and a kind partner will give us that back. It's like they'll have this space of loving curiosity with our bodies and with us.

SAMIA: Right. Because, I mean, ideally, you know, like, certainly from. From my perspective, ideally, I would want to be in a sexual relationship in a context where it is an expression of a real loving relationship. You know, it's just one aspect of how we express love for each other. Because, you know, that is... I mean, sure, like, you know, you can live a life where you're just chasing after pleasure. You're just chasing. That don't mean hit, you know in terms of your brain just giving you that. That feeling of intense pleasure or whatever. But that kind of feeling, while it's very nice to experience when it happens, it's just... It's not the kind of thing that's very sustainable, like on a throughout the day, throughout your week, throughout your month, throughout your life kind of context. I mean, those can only be certain moments for a little bit of time. And so you really like. What I really crave is peace, you know, and a sense of stability, which for me is connected to a sense of safety, you know, also. And so for that to happen, if there's going to be any kind of sexual relationship, it has to be in a context of this relationship that is loving, that is safe, that is peaceful and so forth. And that cannot happen if you don't have a healthy connection outside of, even when you're engaging in sex with both yourself and your partner.

FIONA: And I think it's like in the context of shy women, let's say sensitive women, normally we need that. It's like, I think there are many women on the planet who are able to have casual sex. It's like, I think that definitely exists, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But what I also see is that mainly for those of us who are shy or sensitive, that's not going to satisfy us. It's like when you. It's interesting that you said the word peace and relaxation and sort of this. I mean, a lot of people are talking about how our nervous system is. It's like a nervous system has to feel relaxed for most of us to really have satisfying sex. And not just sex, but the. The whole relationship with somebody, whether it's a husband, you know, for the rest of our lives, or somebody is... Yeah, sometimes we can have that sort of special connection with somebody who we may not be with for the rest of our lives. But somehow it's more than just the sexual connection. There's more that's going on there.

SAMIA: Yeah, I mean it's interesting. Like culture changes, beliefs changes. Like again, you know, this is something it's in... Now I'm going to talk about the Islamic culture that as a Muslim, you know. So like I was saying, during the time of the Prophet, turns out there was like this openness around talking about sexual health effect, relationships etc, but turns out there was also like this like, for example, divorce was not seen as like the end of the world kind of thing. It was very kind of relatively normal experience for people to get divorced. I mean, but the thing that, the thing was that like people who were divorced got married again, including women. And it wasn't like a huge, like in our modern Indian Pakistani society, divorce has become such a big taboo, like at least for women, you know, like men get divorced and they'll get remarried, no problem. For a divorced woman, it's like a huge issue, huge issue. She struggles to find someone else to, who is willing to marry her if she wants to enter into another marriage relationship. And a lot of that has to do with, you know, like just, you know, that it comes down to, you know, like, what kind of attitude do you have about sex and sexual relations and what context and with whom you can do it and, and how casually... Like, does it have to be with that only with that one person you're going to theoretically be with the rest of your life? Or can it be like more so it turns out there were actually legal provisions. There was like a legal, this is controversial in the community, but there was a legal framework that was created whereby people could engage in temporary marriages. And the idea was to create a context of accountability within which people would be able to and allowed to engage in sexual relationships. But it was understood that these marriages were not like, you weren't entering the marriage with the thought of I have to be with this person forever and ever. It was more like, no, I think I want to be with this person right now. Not sure about forever, but you know, we want to be able to explore our relationship and we want to be able to do it in a context where there will be some accountability and some sense of, you know, responsibility and safety. And so a context, a system was actually created where you could engage, like enter into a marriage contract that was understood to be a temporary marriage contract. And I mean, again, like growing up, no one taught me about all of these things existing.

FIONA: That's hugely controversial.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. No, but it just made me realize about, you know, like, some of these ideas that we now think are so normal and just how it's supposed to be in terms of our concepts of love and as a forever relationship with just a single person. I mean, this is actually not how people always understood marriage and love, you know, so it's like, in different cultures, and even in the same culture, in different periods of time, you know, people have had different understandings about, you know, what is even acceptable or not in terms of how and when you get to engage in sexual relationships.

FIONA: So it's really interesting because I suppose the way that I'm normally talking about it isn't in the context of talking to somebody from your tradition and culture, but the way that I talk about it is that. And again, talking about somebody who's healed sexually. So a woman who's healed sexually. For some of my clients, they're like, you know what? I've fallen in love. And I think it's very likely I'll be with this person, you know, for as long as we live in this lifetime. And I'm very, very happy with that. And then other women are like, you know what? I've discovered my sexual freedom. And it may be that I'm with someone for, you know, the most extreme a night, but often it's like, well, I don't think it will be forever, but it's certainly for the time being. And then I talked to them a year later, and they were like, well, that was great, but ran its course. We were very happy. And then it ran its course. And it's like, for me, it's like, it's really great to acknowledge that. It's like we're all different. And some people do want to truly love each other and want to be together forever, but it's not necessarily the case for everyone. And that shouldn't be made wrong, in my opinion.

SAMIA: Are there any downsides or pitfalls to watch out for in the context of, you know, like, if our goal is to live our lives in a way that's free and we're confident and empowered, of course. But at the same time, we want to make sure we are taking good care of ourselves. We're staying safe. And so are there, like, any pitfalls to watch out for? Any "Don't", in terms of, like, don't do this so that you can continue to take good care of yourself?

FIONA: Yes. So I'm going to start first with the kind of what I call the energetic. And in a way, the steps, the first two steps of the system kind of take care of this. So it's like really be embodied. Do what you can to be embodied. Find out what's true for you sexually. And then when you meet that super cool hot guy and you're convinced that he's the one, even so your friends will tell them there's all those alarms when you really, really, really tune in with yourself. You're like, oh, actually, you know what, he may seem so hot, so cool, so good looking, but when I'm really present with my body, I see that he's not for me. So it is like, that's the first thing. Really, really, really be present with yourself. And from that space as well, you know, you may see someone who you think, I'm just gonna say it straight. You think he's a bit of a loser and you kind of dismiss him. But you're like, but when you're really, really present with yourself, you not, maybe he's not so much, oh, he's quite fun. And it's like you can start to really, really trust yourself. So that's kind of the energetics. But I would also say, you know, it's like I'm older now, so I don't have to worry about this. But we have the, you know, of course we can, you know, when we're younger, we can get pregnant. And it's like just really, really being clear with yourself is like, oh, what, what precautions do I need to take to really look after myself here? It's like we're the ones with the bodies that get pregnant. It's like we're, we really have to take care of ourselves with this. And, you know, you can do the research and work out what's best for you, but you really have to take care of yourself. You can't expect, you know, it's like you can expect a kind man to be aware of all of this, but in the end, it's our bodies and we need to really be aware of that to keep ourselves safe in that really physical so sense too.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. I mean, not only do we have to be thinking about and concerned about pregnancy issues, but also sexually, I think. What's the proper STI's are they called now?

FIONA: Yes, yeah.

SAMIA: STI's like, you know, just being aware. I mean, how many stories did we hear in the 80s, for example, when the AIDS epidemic was, you know, raging of, you know, like people who were getting infected by their partners, you know. So, I mean, they were, you know, you had this, like, stereotype in mind of, oh, like, these people who get aids, they're the people were bad people in terms of, like, they're promiscuous and they engage in all these risky behaviors and stuff. But then, you know, it was like, oh, this housewife, you know, like, children, was never done anything wrong according to society's standards and so forth. Been completely faithful in her relationship and so forth. And she has aids. And how did she get it? Well, she got it because her husband, you know, cheated on her or something and, you know, infected her. And. And then before you knew it, you know, like, children were being born with the virus. And, you know, it's just crazy, like, how this whole situation where STI's, it's like, you have to be aware, and it's a really important aspect of maintaining your health, you know.

FIONA: Yes, absolutely. So, and I would just add, it's like, be aware, but don't allow yourself to be so scared that it's like, let's, we'll come back to the sort of the pleasure that our bodies are capable of it's like STIs and pregnancy, and it can be used to sort of as a weapon against women or to make them be so afraid that we don't take the step to have pleasure. And I would say that your body knows. It's like your body knows that this is a man who can be trusted. And it's like, but really, really, really pay attention. And, you know, if necessary, it's like, I mean, I'm over 60, and I actually, I'm on a dating app, and I showed my friend this picture, and I was like, I'm really attracted to him. And she was like, no, Fiona, no, no... And I'm like, really? And it's like when she told me no, it's like when I was really, really present and came out of my kind of. Oh, you know, it's like I knew, I knew not to go there. And whether that meant that I knew if I went there that I'd get some nasty infection or whether it, whether the infection was more kind of emotional turmoil, I don't know. But somehow our bodies will know when we. When we really trust. And so I would say that, too. Don't allow it is like, it's kind of like everything, I guess. It's like, it's a balance. It's like, be aware of the other STI's, be aware of pregnancy, but also don't allow yourself to get scared by it. It's like we have a right to pleasure and let's not allow other people to scare us into not having the pleasure that is our birthright.

SAMIA: Yeah, no, that is such. It's frankly kind of disgusting how... Because there's such double standards, you know, when it comes to how both in the east and the west, like throughout the world, in the vast majority of cultures, there are these huge double standards in terms of like the stigma that is attached, the consequences, the severity of consequences, negative consequences that people will face. Are so different for men versus women and not because of, of anything that's actually different about us as humans, except that, you know, we have these double standards. And this just, I mean, I guess sexism and misogyny that, you know, you use these ideas of like pregnancies, STIs to up, like literally just oppress women. And at the same time, you know, you're not applying the same, same standards to the men, you know, because it's like sci skin just impact men just as much. And even though a man can get pregnant, but if there's a pregnancy that happens, I mean, you know, the man is also affected. I mean, he is just, you know, had an impact that may result with a child coming into the world that's connected to him. And so of course it's going to impact him as well. But oftentimes we just don't consider, consider that... Fiona, I just realized I have kept you for way longer than I had told you that I would…

FIONA: I know. I just looked at the clock too. I didn't, I hadn't realized because it's been great, really great conversation. Really great…

SAMIA: Yes, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation too. And it's so hard to just cut off when you're having like such a engaging conversation. Do you have any last thoughts as we wrap up for today?

FIONA: I suppose it's just if you're a woman and listening to this, it's like you do have the right to sexual pleasure. You do have the right to information around sex. And you know, maybe you're, you know, a lot of your listeners are from the Islamic faith and it's like even, even with all the cultural stuff around it, you. And I mean, I love that you talked about how the Prophet actually was more open than society has become now. And actually, in a way, take an example from what you're willing to do to be willing to come on here and talk so openly. It's like, it doesn't have to be hidden. We do have the right to the... It's like. I love to say that we have. It's like pleasure is our birthright. We have these bodies. Let's enjoy them.

SAMIA: Yeah. And even if you're squeamish about the pleasure part, just think about the health and safety part. We can't be as healthy and as safe as we want to be if you're not educated about these things.

FIONA: Yes, yes. Yeah.

SAMIA: All right…

FIONA: Thank you so much. I'm really grateful you asked me on. I think it's a great conversation.

SAMIA: Thank you so much, Fiona. I really appreciate your coming and sharing your wisdom. And for my last reminder, I will just remind our audience to be, please make sure you check the show notes, because we will drop Fiona's links in there so you can connect with her and continue to learn and get the help and support you need whenever you're ready for it. And until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)