Mindfulness for Beginners
& Other Keys To Find Peace & Joy.
With Samia Bano & Emma Devine

Want some help finding #PeaceAndJoy in a chaotic world?

Listen now to this interview with Emma Devine, author of ‘Bliss’, to learn how you can #QuietYourMind and transform your thoughts to experience the inner sense of love and #bliss you crave.

Emma shares critical keys and very practical tips to find peace and joy, such as:

-- how #mindfulness can help you step away from repetitive thoughts and notice the beauty of everyday life

-- a simple yet powerful technique for transforming fear-based thinking into love-based thoughts

-- her “bliss breathing” technique which can help redirect your attention from racing thoughts and bring you back to the #presentmoment

Learn more and connect with Emma at:

https://www.facebook.com/emmald1

emmasbookcorner@gmail.com

PLUS, get your FREE e-book copy of "Bliss" now at:

https://findbliss.subscribepage.io/

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://calendar.app.google/fT19wX8hhiqgSEwx8

#EmmaDevine #BlissBook #InnerPeace #StopOverthinking #Mindfulness #MindfulLiving #AnxietyRelief #PositiveThinking #SelfLove #SelfCompassion #SpiritualAwakening #SpiritualGrowth #PersonalGrowth #EmotionalWellbeing #MentalWellbeing #FindYourBliss #LetGoOfFear #OverthinkingMind #PresentMoment #Breathwork #MeditationPractice #HealthyMindset #MakeChangeFunAndEasy #presentmomentliving #presentmomentawareness

Here's the audio version of this episode:

Transcript Automatically Generated

Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Dzień Dobry.
I'm so happy to be with you all, and I know you will feel very happy, maybe even blissful, that you are joining us today, because we have a very cool guest with us, and that is Emma Devine, who is the author of “Bliss: Finding Peace and Joy in a Chaotic World”. I am so happy to have you with us, Emma. Welcome...

Thank you. Really happy to be here.

Emma, please tell us more about who you are and what you do.

Yes, so I'm Emma Devine, and I live in the UK in Halifax, which is West Yorkshire, which is kind of north of the UK. I'm mum to 2 teenagers. My son's actually leaving to go to university next weekend, so that'll be a big life change for us. And last year I published a book, and my book is called “Bliss: Finding Peace and Joy in a Chaotic World”. And since then, I've started to do some work with people to help them to feel calmer. And I mainly focus on people's thoughts. So I help people to quieten the mind and I help people to transform their thoughts as well.

Oh, I love it. I love it. That's just the kind of work we, well, that I love.

Yeah, it's definitely a very, very chaotic world and you definitely need people to be helping us finding that, you know, peace and joy. So tell me more about, about a little bit about like, how did you get into doing this work? What, like, how did you… Yeah, how did you get into this work?

Well, I've always wanted to write a book, but I could never think of anything that really stuck enough for me to want to write about it. I actually had the idea to write Bliss… It was a couple of years ago, and I actually ended up with a trapped nerve in my neck, which was really, really painful. And doctors, and they prescribed me some codeine medication for it, which is a very strong medication.

And I've always suffered with anxiety, with worrying, but something I noticed on this codeine was that my mind seemed to go very, very still, and I felt quite calm and quite peaceful. And I thought, that's quite interesting, because usually my mind was racing all the time, but it did quiet right down. So I thought, well, this proves that my mind can be quiet, and it can quieten down, and I can feel this peace and calm. Obviously, I wasn't going to keep taking the drugs to find that, so I thought, I wonder what other ways I can find that will quiet my mind. And then I thought, oh, I could write a book about it. That could be my book. So I just started delving into it, all the different ways that we can quieten our mind, that we can find peace and joy. And it all came from there, really.

Well, thank you for sharing that with us. And I really, really appreciate when, you know, when people are… It's not just… It's not like you're just preaching something because, you know, you know the theory of it, but it's like something that you struggled with, you worked on finding a solution for yourself. I mean, that's real wisdom, actually. I mean, literally, the definite… For me, the difference between just having knowledge and having wisdom, you know, it's like having actually applied the knowledge, tried things out for yourself, and now you're… Yeah… You know, sharing that. It's amazing. I love it.

Thank you. Yeah, I thought I'm kind of taking the reader along with me really throughout the book, you know, I admitted at the beginning that I have these, these worrying thoughts and anxiety, and they kind of came along with me really. And then I described at the end how I then felt. So yeah, it was… yeah… way to do it. I didn't start as an expert. I didn't even end as an expert, but I ended further along than I was before I started.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, really, you're making me think about there's so many times when we struggle with different issues, but we will unfortunately just settle and like not, either try, like to find a solution, or we may try but give up before we have actually found a solution. And that's like a really common problem that, you know, we face.

So tell me a little bit more about, like, I imagine, like, what are some of the core things, like you mentioned, like focusing mostly on helping people in terms of their thoughts. So what are some of, like, the core thoughts that you help people to become aware of that they may need to work on so that, you know, you can really commit yourself and get started on this change-making journey?

Yeah, well, I see it's quite spiritual, my book. So I talk about the spirit and I talk about the ego, which is part of the brain that separates us from everybody else. It's based on fear, so it makes us feel fearful. Its main job is to protect us, but in doing that, it stops us from living life. And it can put us down, it can make us feel small, it can make us feel we're not good enough, we're not as good as everybody else. It spends a lot of time in the past worrying about what's happened and going over and over and over it, and/or in the future. It's very rarely in the present. So it spends a lot of the time in the future worrying about what might happen, because there's always something to worry about, something you can find to worry about. So it's very, very rarely in the present. And that's what a lot of my book was based on to begin with, it was more kind of practical things that we looked into nature, music and exercise – all the things we can do practically to make ourselves feel more blissful. But towards the end, we got a bit more spiritual and we started looking at then meditation and mindfulness, and that made a huge difference for me because it just calmed that voice right down.

Yeah, tell me more. First of all, I absolutely love that you have that spiritual approach incorporated. It's what I've personally also been finding, that, you know, until we connect with our spiritual selves and we take that more spiritual perspective, it can be really, challenging in some ways to, you know, create the changes that we are seeking. It's sort of like, for me, you know, like, I just kind of hit a ceiling, you know, and I couldn't break through it until I was, like, able to also begin to start to think about things from a more spiritual perspective and begin to incorporate that. Tell me, tell me a bit more about… Okay, so we start with, you know, like you mentioned, some of the practical things like going out in nature and so forth. So why start there? Well, how does that help? How much does that help? And then what happens that you then, that led you to realize that you needed a spiritual perspective?

Yeah, well, a lot of it… I started there because I did a survey and I asked a lot of people what brought them bliss. So there's some of the things I started to explore. But then I guess like nature is spiritual anyway, isn't it? When you're out in nature, you feel spiritual. And I think that's why we feel so calm, because nature doesn't have an ego. It's not rushing around. It's just natural. So I think that's why I would feel so calm around nature. And music… A lot of people find music very spiritual too. So even though they were the more practical things, I did find that a lot of spirituality came into it anyway. And then, yeah, as it went along, it… I think for me the mindfulness chapter was the most powerful one. And I didn't think it would be because I'm somebody… I was somebody who thinks a lot. And I thought it's just gonna be really hard to stop that thinking and bring myself into the present. And I even thought, I quite enjoy thinking. I thought it might be quite boring, the blank mind. But for the time I was writing the chapter, I was practicing it a lot, and I just felt so calm. And it was the calmest I felt to when I was… I took the codeine that got me doing this in the first place.

And yeah, I felt a lot of peace and, and really calm when I was doing it. And I keep reminding, I keep forgetting, it's something you've almost got to do consciously, isn't it? The mindfulness. And I always forget to do it until I start to think my thoughts are racing, and then I bring myself back to doing it again, and it just helps every time.

Oh, you made me think of 2 questions. One, when you were mentioning that, you know, there is actually like an aspect of spirituality when we think about nature, or we experience nature and music. For you, what is spirituality?

I think it's just knowing that you've connected to something very beautiful and something eternal inside yourself. And I think a lot of us forget that. I think, again, the ego, which is developed to help us navigate this physical world. A lot of us think we are that, and that's all we are, and we forget there's something very, very deep and spiritual underneath that is pure bliss, that's pure love. And it's just that pure bliss can't reach us a lot of the time because of these constant thoughts of the ego. So once you can quieten that down, you feel this bliss a lot more often.

I like it. I like how you are thinking about and defining spirituality as this inner knowing.

It's hard to define, isn't it? Yeah,

Well, I mean, for me, I have come to like an understanding and definition that for me is very simple and makes sense, you know. But it is true that you know people can mean many different things when they use their term spirituality, and like I mean it's just like for me a lot of times. Like, for example, they're like, oh, okay, so anything that's not to do with the physical body, that's to do with like a spirit, like anything that, you know, like for example, people will be dealing with, let's say, like there's some people who are like, oh, there are other beings. And, you know, to be able to connect to these other beings, I mean, not human beings, you know, that's like a spiritual matter because, you know, those, those, they're not physical beings. Yeah. They're like some kind of spirit and stuff like that, right? And then there's all this focus, for those people. And so they're, they're thinking they're doing spiritual work and all of that, but all the focus is on these other beings, and connecting to them and having those other beings, like act as our guides and helping us and things like that. And like, for me, I'm like, I don't… I mean, that's all the kind of spirituality that I'm interested in or that I work on.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, like even if there are all of these other kinds of beings and things out there, like for me, the only other being that I'm really really interested in helping me or asking for help is you know whoever my my creator. You know, so it's like, for… Because like, as a Muslim person, you know, we have always had this like drilled into us that, you know, it's like, you are so blessed, you're so lucky that, you know, you have a direct connection to our Creator, our source. So why would you go anywhere else in terms of… You know, like if you want help, if you want love, yeah, just go straight to the source. Just, you know, don't depend on anyone else.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You seem like a very, very peaceful person. Do you think that's religion? Like, for me, I thankfully I'm in a place in my life where you know, my religion and spirituality have come together. And when it was just religion that I had in my life, it wasn't enough, you know. Yeah. Like, the way I distinguish between religion and spirituality is sort of like when it was just religion, it was what was taught to me by other people.

Yeah. And, a lot of that was just, like it got me… It helped me to a certain extent, and then I got stuck, you know. So it wasn't until I connected with my spirituality, that inner knowing, you know, like really working on that inner connection, that inner direct connection, because it's like my religion teaches me that I have this direct connection, like I was saying, right? And so, like, for me, it was like, hey, if I have that direct connection that is, you know, my source, and my source, my creator, is loving, is the source of peace and all that, then how come I'm not feeling peaceful? How come I'm not feeling blissful? How come I'm not feeling that joy, there must be something wrong. And so that something wrong was that missing, like that I was missing the spirituality. It was that inner knowing, inner connection that was sort of weak and needed to be worked on.

Yeah, yes, you need to feel it, don't you? Not just know about it, you need to feel it.

Yes, yes. And so that makes me think about the second question that I was thinking about that you brought up, mindfulness. Tell me more about what that really means. What does mindfulness really mean for you? And what, like, really is it? I mean, you already mentioned it, but I just want you to tell us again, like, what mindfulness is for you, and we'll dig even deeper into it.

So for me, it's just being present in the moment. So it means your thoughts are not in the past, they're not in the future, they're here and now. And the way that I just looked into a few ways of doing it, but the thing that worked for me was to focus on my breathing. Because you're always breathing, you're always breathing in and out. A lot of the time we're not breathing properly, we're breathing very shallow. And so I actually came up with something called bliss breathing. By breathing for 4 seconds, and as you do it, you imagine the light coming up through your feet up to the top of your head, and then you hold it for 4 seconds and imagine that light flowing around your body, and then you breathe out for 6 seconds. So you breathe out longer than you breathe in. And back down out the soles of your feet and keep doing that. And it really works for me every time. So I just take myself out of these thoughts, I put my mind onto my breathing, I do some bliss breathing, and after a little while I just feel very relaxed and back in the moment. So that's how it gets me there. But it's also just noticing the little things. Like when I was writing my book, there's a little like a little blob of mayonnaise I had on my plate, and I looked at that, I thought, that's so beautiful. I was just noticing all the little things that normally I wouldn't even notice. And I chopped up a cucumber to put in a glass and the patterns in the cucumber and just noticing all the little things that we would never think to look at because we're just so busy thinking and we're in the past or future. But it just brings you to the now and you can see what's around you and you see everything.

Oh, I love that. I love that. So mindfulness as like a practice to be in the moment. I love that. You know, one thing that I really appreciate about that perspective on mindfulness is like for a lot of people, when they think of, for example, meditation, they think that what is required is that you have to like quiet your mind, like think no thoughts anymore. And, you know, just, and that is like, and then they try to do that. They try to get rid of their thoughts and then they really struggle with it. They fail at it and they're like, ah, this is really hard. It's not working.

Yeah, but it's like, actually, it's not about getting rid of your thoughts. It's sort of like, no, you just want to make it so that you're in the present moment.

Yeah, just look around you and look at little things, like look at a leaf or a flower. And if you really study them, you can see how beautiful they are. And it just takes you right in. present. There's so many things we miss because we're too busy in the future or the past.

Yeah, I did. I felt like it's almost like I've been meditating when I was doing the mindfulness. So I wasn't sat there, switching my thoughts off that way. I was moving around and doing things, but I still felt that same zen feeling as if I was doing a full meditation. So you do the full…

Yeah. So I love that, you know, you focus on the breathing as one of the way, or one of the main ways to achieve mindfulness, because like you were saying, we're always breathing.

Yeah, and you can't be breathing in the past, you can't be breathing in the future. It's a very, very present moment thing, and so it makes a lot of sense that, you know, by focusing on our breathing, it's a really easy way to focus on the present moment.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And by taking the deep breaths and, I think, exhaling for longer than you inhale as well, you start to feel so much calmer. So I'd be a lot more mindful of my breathing now than I used to, because sometimes if I'm a bit stressed, I will notice it goes very shallow. So then I'll stop and make sure I remind myself to take the deep breaths again.

Yes. Ah, it's like you were saying earlier, it's sort of like for most of us, our minds are not trained to stay in the present moment. It's sort of like we actually get trained for them not to be in the present moment. Like, I'm thinking about, you know, for example, whether it's all the years that we spend in school learning how to use our brains, how to use our minds. And it's like pretty much all training to think about the past, think about the future. It's like… Yeah. We don't learn to just stay in the present moment. And that's why it doesn't come, it seems like it doesn't come naturally to us. It doesn't come easily to us, but it is actually something that can become a more natural aspect of how we live and just become more and more easy over time.

Yeah, yeah. It's so, because our thoughts are our life, basically, aren't they? It's how we perceive the world with what goes on in our minds. And we're never taught how to calm our thoughts down, how to transform them if they're getting negative. Nobody's ever really taught that. But it's so incredibly important, isn't it?

Yeah. You know, also, okay, so here's the other question that popped up for me when you were talking about mindfulness. Okay, so let's say I get myself to focus on the present moment.

Yeah, think like I start to observe what's there in the present moment around me, but I start to notice everything that's wrong, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Like, you know, like for me, that was literally what would happen is that even when I was in the present moment, this was, you know, back in the day when I was a very suffering person. It seemed to me like when I was in the present moment, I actually didn't like it. Because I started to feel things. Like, for me, this is what happened. It's like I had a lot of feelings and I didn't know how to deal with those feelings. And so, like, when, when I was in the present moment, it made me aware of those feelings. And with those feelings came thoughts that were not very happy thoughts. They were not, you know, and so I didn't like having to think those thoughts. I didn't like having to feel those feelings. So for me, I would seek escape, and like for me, like I don't know if it was that like I just actually like for me. I'm trying to think if in terms of escaping, like, I didn't want to really think about my past for that matter. I didn't even want to think about my future. I actually didn't even want to think about myself because it was just too… It felt too painful to even be myself. Yeah. And so, like for me, the escape was, to try and just not focus on me at all but, you know, think about someone else, something else. Yeah. And, you know, like for me, I mean, it helped. I mean, to a certain extent until I got stuck and it didn't help anymore. But, you know, like, that was the problem that I encountered when I tried to be more present.

Right. So like, what happens? Like, what would like, if someone else is struggling with that kind of a thing, what would you advise us to do?

I guess I'll say if something keeps coming up like that and some really strong feelings or emotions or maybe memories, then it's worth finding somebody to talk it through with. And the advice in that case and I do coaching if it was more of a counseling issue, then I'd suggest going to a counselor. To try and work through those thoughts, because sometimes your thoughts just keep coming, don't they? They need to be worked through.

But the aims and the goals of meditation and mindfulness is to calm your mind, is to have a break and stop those thoughts. So it's just about not beating yourself up if you start to think, oh, I'm getting distracted, or I'm thinking about things I don't want to think about. Don't beat yourself up, don't get stressed about it, just calmly go back to it. Imagine they're like clouds going across the sky. And when we have a thought, it's almost like we reach up and grab that cloud, and then the cloud starts to get darker and heavier. And so we need to visualize ourselves just letting these clouds go and letting them pass, because they will go. And the clouds are our thoughts, and they will eventually drift off if we don't interact with them or try and grab them. And because it's just that's how I like to do it. Just imagine these thoughts are just like clouds, and they just go. I think the main thing is, because when I started the meditation chapter, I really struggled to meditate for quite a while. I really struggled, because my thoughts just wouldn't stop. They just wouldn't stop round and round. So I ended up getting a community of people together and we worked on it together. We meditated every day and shared how we're getting on and shared tips and techniques. So that was really helpful. But yeah, it is, it can be really, really difficult at first. The more you do it, the easier it becomes because you train your mind, don't you? So. The more you do it, is just to have that calm, still mind. But it just, it does take a lot of work in the beginning. But the main thing is not to beat yourself up because it's something that's meant to relax you and meant to make you feel peaceful, not even more stressed. So it's just accepting that thoughts will sometimes come in and not holding on to them, not grabbing onto them, just letting them float away. And yeah, it takes a while. One thing I do is I listen to, an app that's got some meditations on it. So if I'm feeling like I just can't get in the zone because my mind's too busy, then I'll put a recording on of a meditation and listen to that. And it has the same effect. And yeah, I find that that really calms me. It's easier if you've got a voice to listen to than if you're just trying to do it by yourself.

Hmm. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. You know what you're saying about just letting the thoughts go, not holding on to them. So it's actually like the mindfulness practice, not just that you're staying in the moment, but you're staying in the moment in this way that, you're like, okay, you know what, thoughts will be observing.

Yeah. What we can observe, but we won't hold on to any of those thoughts or ideas. I will just sort of like, ah, let him go. Oh yeah. You know, I… Okay, so that's actually a really, really because I mean, it makes sense actually, because if you hold on to a thought, I mean, it would invariably take you out of the moment.

Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. So, and what you also said about, you know, just it makes me think of the word like non-judgment. So sort of like you're, you're observing your thoughts in this way where you're not holding on to them, but also you are not judging them. Like, you're not blaming and shaming and stressing yourself. Like, if you have a thought that you think is problematic, like, you know, so it's like this non-judgment, as it were. Like, giving yourself grace is also like a really, really important component to the mindfulness.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, because the ego starts to criticize you. It's the ego that you're trying to quieten, and it will start to criticize you and it almost doesn't want you to feel at peace because then it hasn't got a purpose. So it will keep bombarding you with thoughts until, yeah, you just got to say, nope, this is my time now, and just let it float away.

Yes. So because you're doing this in the context of a practice that you have designated a certain amount of time for, so that would really work in the context of when you're doing the practice, because you're like, okay, this is not the time right now, it's not the time. What happens like when we are not in like that mode of doing that form of practice and not trying to practice mindfulness, but you know, I'm just living my everyday life?

Yeah. And I want to do it more mindful, with more mindfulness. Like what's something else that, like, yeah, what happens then?

Yeah. There's a few techniques that I use. There's one that works for me every time. It's very simple, but I did it last night because like I say, my son's going off to university in a week. And then I'm starting to worry about him a bit and thinking, will he make friends? Will he be okay? And I thought, no, I'm not going to think… I don't need to think these thoughts. And I think that's the thing for me, is just realizing you have control and you have power over it. So I just said to myself, you don't have to think these thoughts. I can think anything I like. So I started thinking about something nice and I felt okay again. And these thoughts have disappeared. I think that's a big thing for me, just realizing that we actually do have control over what we think. We don't have to get stuck in this spiral of thoughts. We can change our thoughts to something else, or we can try to focus on the breathing and bring ourselves to the present. We don't have to focus on these thoughts. They don't have control of us. We have control of them.

Yes. Yeah. Okay. You made me think of another question. I'm going to play a little bit of the devil's advocate here. So because, you know, the like, especially when fear comes up, where, you know, you're like worrying about in this case, like, you the example that you gave, so your son going off to college and, you know, the thoughts coming about his well-being, his safety, and this and that. I mean It, like, you actually made me think of my mom.

Because, like, my mom is always, like, thinking from that, like, mom perspective in terms of, like, as a mom, she sees it as her job to, to take care of her kids.

Yeah. And so, she's like, it's my job to think about what could go wrong, what could hurt you, and then to, you know, take care of that, to prevent that from happening. And, you know, so like for her, she doesn't want to let go of the fears or the worries that she has when it comes to her kids because like for her, she sees that as part of her job as mom to do that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So channeling my mom a little bit in this question. So like, how do you respond to that concern that someone might have that, you know, if they're thinking, okay, yeah, look, I'm having these thoughts and they are stressing me out, they are worrying me. But I need, like, I cannot let this go because I need to deal with that. I need to take do something to prevent those potentially bad things from happening. If I just let the thought go, I mean, those bad things could happen, and that's really bad. I can't let it go.

Yeah, yeah, I totally get it. I guess me, I think worrying doesn't change anything, does it? You can lay awake worrying all night and nothing will change. If there's any action you can take, then you can take the action. And like I say, I'm a bit worried he might not make friends. I'm sure he will do, but we've had the conversation of how to start conversations with people and how to make friends. We've had that chat, and I'm sure he's nearly 19, so it will be fine. So we've had that talk together. So I think always take control of what you can. If there's anything you can do, then do it. But otherwise it's completely pointless, isn't it? And your brain's just doing it kind of to protect yourself, isn't it? Because it thinks, right, I need to look out for every single thing that could go wrong here. And it's a way of protecting yourself or protecting your children. But it doesn't work, does it? It won't actually help you. And it won't help them. So do what you can practically, but then I think it's just there's no point to it. And all it does is stress you out, and it makes you see you're not as good a parent then because you're tired, because you're not sleeping, and you're feeling stressed. So yeah, but I mean, the worries will always come up about your children, won't they? I think I'll always have the same worries even though he's 19 and 15 now, so they'll always be there. But it's… You can't just spend your life worrying about them. You have to be able to calm those thoughts, transform those thoughts, and also let them make their own mistakes, I guess, and let them find things out for themselves. Which is something I wrote about that in my book, actually. It's very difficult to let them go when you're used to doing everything for them and looking after them and looking But you do have to just let them go, don't you? And find out themselves and make their own mistakes.

Yeah, you know, it's very interesting, like, talking about things from this perspective of like how we relate to our children because it's like on the one hand, we understand. I mean, I don't know that there is really. I mean, you know, there's a story of like the Buddha, for example, like you know his origin story where his parents were like, you know what? We are not going to let any kind of suffering, pain, hurt, touch our child. And so we are going to do everything that we can to protect our child, you know, from all kind of hurt, all kind of suffering. And I mean, there were, I mean, dad was literally the king, his mom was literally the queen. And so they actually had a lot of power and like resources and stuff to surround their child with all kinds of comfort. And, you know, they deliberately kept him from knowledge, of other people's suffering and things like that. So it seems like that is like one of the very exceptional Stories that I know in terms of like people dealing with their children where they may where they try to such a I mean I don't want to use the word extreme but but like to such an extent where they're like no we will do everything we can to prevent our child from suffering at all but from Like most people, I would say like maybe 99.9% of the people, like, we understand that, you know, you're, you have to let your child, for example, fall so that they can learn to walk, right? And so, even if you're feeling a little anxious or whatever about it, you nonetheless let the child fall because you know that it's part of the process of how they learn to walk, and you don't want your child to not learn how to walk.

Yeah. So it's like, on the one hand, we know this, like, when we're dealing with our children but then at the same time, it's like, especially like as the kids grow older and now they're going to need to take bigger risks, more consequential risks. Yeah. You know, the, this idea that we need to let them go through some struggle, make some mistakes, maybe even get hurt, becomes more it's sort of like, again, thinking of my mom, for example, like it became like if I say to her, Mom, you have to let me make my mistakes, it's okay if I get hurt, you know, you have to let me get hurt sometimes. And it's like for her, that's not an acceptable response from me because, like, she does she just does not, I mean, I don't know, like, where her mind sort of drew the line in terms of, like, her letting me fall and get hurt so I could learn. Right. Things as a kid. But then she drew some kind of a line in her mind. And she was like, but I'm not going to let my daughter, even though now she's like, I'm now 40-plus years old. My mom is still like, you know, worrying about me and not wanting me to get hurt and not wanting me to do certain things, because she thinks it's too risky. And you know, stuff like that. And so it's sort of like somewhere she drew this line in her mind and she's not able to use that. She's not able to be consistent in applying that understanding that, you know, you need to like the struggle, the getting hurt, the falling down, it's part of the learning process. Like, you know, so it, yeah, so it's sort of like this consistency issue, I suppose. It's like we know something, but we're not able to consistently apply it in our life. Yeah. And so, you know, that lack of consistency then creates these problems. The solution to it, we know, like, but we can't, we're struggling to consistently apply it. It's like, so what do we do when we're experiencing that kind of struggle, you know?

Yeah, I think a lot of it's just reminding yourself, isn't it? Just always making sure you write it down somewhere on a post-it note and look at it all the time. Just reminding yourself, that if your mind is carrying away somewhere else, that it can be brought back and you can be in control of it. But it is difficult. And I think also the more we think a certain way, the more the brain gets used to thinking that way. Pathways in our brain, don't we? So that way, then it starts to become a lot more natural to do it. But yeah, it's very tricky. It's very tricky being a parent. Very hard. Because it's you naturally just want to look after them, don't you? And you naturally want to make sure they're okay. But then you have to let them go and you have to live your own life and you have to have your own thoughts and you have to have look after your own peace as well. And there's always something to worry about with kids. There's always going to be something you can worry about. And something things will go wrong for them, things will go right for them, but you just need to somehow just detach and let them just keep going and live their own lives. For your own mental health, I think, as well, because it's no life, is it, yourself, if you're always worrying and always trying to control somebody else's So tell me more about this need to so sorry, I'm channeling my mom a lot today. So like what you said about, like, for your own mental health, you need to let it go, or that, you know, you need to sort of, I mean, I cannot repeat the exact words you said, they've slipped my mind, but the meaning or the understanding that I took, you know, sort of like you need to have your own life. Yeah. Like you let the kids go, because part of the need behind that letting go is that you need to have your own life. And so like, I can just hear my mom in this and she's like, no, my whole life is my kids, you know. Yeah. And so it's like she does it. Why do we need to have our own life? You know, like, for other people, I can imagine it may not be their children, it may be their spouse or some other relationship where you're like, just so like, this person, this other person is my whole life. And I don't want a life of my own. I mean, in psychology there is a term for that kind of thinking. I mean, but so it's like a common problem. It's not just like something that my mom struggles with. Yeah, yeah, tell me more about why. Why do we need that life for… Yeah, again, Buddhism, they talk about attachment as being suffering, don't they? And again, I've wrote a few chapters in my book about it, how the ego likes to attach itself to things. It can attach itself to people and trying to control those people, but also it attaches itself to identities. So that could be again with your mum. She's attached herself to the identity of mum, so that's who she is in this world. mum, and that's her job and that's what she has to do. Whereas, you know, there are a lot of other identities we can take up as well as just mum. And I think it is definitely a danger when you just attach yourself to this identity of just being a mum, because at some point your children will leave home and then you can feel really lost. So it's all about kind of having a full life and making sure you've got hobbies and a career if you want a career, and making sure you're doing a lot more things to make yourself happy, really getting out in nature again, doing the things that just light you up and make you happy and not just attaching yourself to this one identity. So yeah, I think that that's something that a lot of us do. It's something I'm working on at the minute because again, because my son's leaving, I've still got my daughter at home, but I'm making sure that I'm not all about being his mum and that's it. You know, I'm growing my own business as well. I'm going out and doing things, traveling. So it's just making sure you've always got your own life, because you can't be dependent on anybody else for your happiness, because you can't control people, can you? You need to make sure you've got that bliss, that relationship with yourself and your spirit, no matter who comes in and out of your life. Because it's, yeah, it's freedom just to know you can be okay by yourself. You don't need to attach yourself to anybody. You don't need any kind of identity to be happy. You can just, you can just be and just be happy and just be peaceful.

Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of times when people develop these kinds of unhealthy attachments, I think the proper term in psychology is like codependency, unhealthy codependency. It's, I mean, the thing that is to realize that you're trying to fulfill a need that you have, you know. So it's like with my mom, for example, she is so attached to her identity as mom because that is the identity that gave her the most joy and the most happiness in her life, that gave her such a strong sense of purpose, for living and motivation for living, and so on and so forth. So it fulfilled so many of her needs, and so forth. Yeah. And but it's sort of like no one role, no one, activity, or no one thing can be everything. In terms of it cannot… There's no one thing that will meet your every need in every context, in every situation, you know? So it's sort of like, you need to have that, to have more of a variety of, you know, ways in which different ways in which you can meet your, meet your needs. Because then, like, you were so right about saying, and because then it does become like an issue of control where You're just trying to live your identity as a mom, but if you do it in a in that more like way where you know you're not willing to let let go and so forth, then you do end up need having to control or at least trying to control your kids or whoever that other person is. Yeah, you know, and. It's just the moment you that becomes part of your agenda that I need to control this other person. Yeah. Even if it is with the best intentions of, you know, doing good for them, protecting them. But the moment that becomes a part of your agenda, like for me, it's like you're entering into really, really, really dangerous territory because, you know, like when you, when you look at abusive relationships, you know, one of the defining features of an abusive relationship is that the abuser or the abusive person is on an agenda to control.

Yeah. The person that they're abusing or being abusive towards. And so, like for me, that is like a huge, like a huge warning bell that there's something very unhealthy in the relationship or it's going that way.

Yeah. You know, and so I've learned to become very wary of it, especially like after I did, you know, this training as a crisis counselor, and for 4 years I was working on a sexual assault and domestic violence hotline, and so it really made me really, really sensitive to to this whole like us trying to control other people dynamic, and it's just so pervasive, and it's so common, and it's so easy for us to fall into that, that kind of controlling pattern of thinking and behaving. And we don't even realize, or a lot of people, they don't even realize that they're doing that. And it's so problematic.

Yeah. Yeah. They think they're trying to protect the person and help the person, but it is, yeah, it's not good for them and it's not good for the other person either.

Yeah, yeah. You know, like, for me, it comes like, one of the ways that I found it really, I mean, that was like one of the reasons why the whole spiritual perspective was so important for me to get connected to, because, you know, as long as I was not connected to the spiritual perspective, there were like all of these things I would hit, and I could not come to a good understanding of like what's the problem with like, like for example, if I'm a mom, and even if I do need to control my child to keep them safe, to protect them, why do I need to let go? What's wrong with control? My… Me controlling my child if I'm doing it for their own good? And so like for me, one of the ways that I understood is, you know, like you know, you take that more spiritual perspective and it's sort of like you realize that, you know, like our spirits there's just this element of freedom. Yeah. In them right there, that we are free. Like, we are freedom. Like, our spirits are that, in some very, very real ways. And so it's like you try to I mean, that's why slavery is such a problem, you know. It's like, it's like even if you are, you know, like racist people in America will often be like, oh no, no, you know, slavery wasn't like first of all, they're very confused people because on the one hand, because of all the backlash, that they receive, first of all, they try to deny that there even was slavery. They're literally trying to change the history in history books and remove even any mention of the fact that there was slavery in America. So, and at the same time, because that's pretty much a very impossible task to do and they're failing at it, like there's so many people who remember and refuse to forget and let them forget. That there was slavery. So then their next thing is, oh, it wasn't a bad thing. First of all, it wasn't there, but even if it was there, it wasn't a bad thing because the slaves are so happy. They were being treated so well, and you know, they were like living barbaric lives before, but you know, they were given better lives, like. They found, you know, whatever. So I mean, I don't want to get too much into like what these people say, but the point is, you know, like that's like one of the defenses that they come up with. It's like, oh no, the people, the slaves were really happy. Like, no, it's like, you know, it's because like freedom is such a fundamental human need.

Yeah, because like for me, I had to realize that it's such a fundamental need because it's actually part of our, of our spiritual reality. Yeah. And so once I was able to understand that, then I was like, oh, so many more things make sense to me now. And I like, for me, it's now much so much more easier to also respect other people's need to be free.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think it's in your life when it comes to other people, but also being free from your own mind, because you can be in an abusive relationship with your own thoughts without realizing. Our thoughts insult us, tell us we're not good enough, tell us we're worthless, and that can be going on all the time. So that's a huge thing to work on because you can't escape your thoughts, can you? You can't go anywhere. And I do often quite liken it to an abusive relationship because that's how it is, but one that you can never escape from because it's constantly going on.

Yes. Oh, that is so true. That is so true. And in fact, you know, like for me, I always like, I have to admit that, like I was my worst, my worst, like, in those days when I was so troubled and suffering.

Like, I came to realize that actually I was my worst enemy in the sense that I was more harsh on myself than anyone else, you know. In fact, I mean, I would say that I mean, now it's so clear for me to see, like, looking back at my life, that I was like so blessed. I was surrounded with so many people who loved me and did their best to take care of me and help me out. But because I was so harsh on myself, you know, I was literally blocking out the love and the help and the caring from these other people. Yeah. And so I was definitely in an abusive relationship with myself.

Yeah, yeah, I think so many people are without realizing it. Sometimes speak to yourself, you would never speak to a child like that, you'd never speak to a family member or a friend, never. So why do we think it's okay to speak to ourselves like that? And yeah, one big technique that I use is transforming your thoughts from fear-based thoughts to love-based thoughts. And he's talking about the ego, this thing that exists inside our head, and that's totally driven by fear. So if you have these thoughts, then the ego telling you that, and he's only doing it to protect you, but it's the ego telling you that, whereas your spirit, your love and peace. So one way of kind of transferring them over is by just flipping them from fear-based thoughts to thoughts that are rooted in love, and it works every time. You just think to yourself, what, what would love think? So, if you think of something like, I am fat, or something like that, and it makes you feel bad, then again, flip it around. What would love think? And love would always say something like, no, you're not, you're absolutely fine, you look amazing. If you feel like being healthy and losing a bit of weight, then you can go on a healthy diet and do it. But it's a totally different voice, and you can do that at any point if you've got these thoughts that are making you feel awful. At any point you can just look at it and think, what would love think? And that's changed a lot for me, I think.

I love that. I love that. Yeah. So what do you think is the role of fear? I mean, like, I mean, it's… Yeah, does fear have a legitimate role in our lives, in our minds? Or is it like, oh no, you feel fear, just forget about it? I mean, or not forget about it, but, you know, flip it, flip, flip to what would love think, what would love do? Yeah, so just sort of like, you know, and, and are we saying we don't need fear, that it has no like, yeah, tell me, tell me more about that.

Yeah, we definitely, definitely need fear sometimes. And like, if we're about to walk out in front of a bus, we need that fearful response to pull us back. And it obviously comes from like a long, long time ago when we had real predators after us and we needed it for survival. But we're very, very rarely in situations now that are actually dangerous, very, very rarely, because of our modern world and all the safety we've built up. So we don't need it in the same way. I think a lot of fear is there, it is trying to protect us. And a lot of it comes from, again, when we used to live in clans and we used to be in this group, and if we got kicked out of this group, and then we were very vulnerable to starvation or predators. So we want people to like us, and I think a lot of it comes from that. So if our ego again starts saying to us, look, you're fat, you're not good enough, you're worthless, you're ugly, it's almost like a way to protect yourself, to be good enough, and then people will accept you and you're not alone and vulnerable. So I think a lot of it comes from that, but we don't need that anymore. We don't need that fear.

Yeah. Is there, like some kind of a definition or like some kind of a way in which, I mean, where we can sort of get clear on, okay, here's a fear that I'm feeling that I do need, like, oh, the bus will hit me if I don't jump back out of the way, versus here are these… Here's this fear I'm feeling that I don't need anymore because it's, it's it's, you know, like this reaction that, I mean, it's, it's not necessary anymore. Yeah. So how do we… Is there a way that you know of where we can make that distinction, or like figure out if this is like fear that I need to pay attention to, or if that's fear that I need to Like, I think again, it's probably just using your logical mind to kind of work it out. Like, if there is something that's actually a danger to you, then you would know that and in which case fear is useful, and fear gets you to act, doesn't it? Yeah, but again, nothing you can do about something, then that fear there's no, no point having that fear. So that's when it comes into worry, and your thoughts don't and there's no point to that fear if you can't do anything at all about it. So yeah, I guess it's just very few things we need to be fearful of, really. I think it's most of us in this day and age that there are very few things that we need to be actually fearful of.

We are generally safe. Not everybody, sadly, but most of us are generally safe day to day. So there's very few things we actually need to feel this fear about. So we can, you know, we do have the luxury to think, right, I'm going to transform this into a loving thought, and it, and it does help us. But even a lot, even if you have a fearful thought about something that might happen, the loving thought hadn't acknowledged that it could happen, but it will still speak to you in a much kinder, in a much calmer way, more reassuring way than the fearful.

Yeah, yeah. And I like what you're saying. Also it makes me think about, you know, like we were talking about mindfulness and what mindfulness really is all about. It's about staying in the present moment. And so it actually, like what you were just sharing about fear made me think about, you know, like, the whole the present moment issue that, you know, if you're feeling fear, and if it's related to something that's a danger to you in the present moment, like a bus will hit me, yeah, yeah, then it's something you pay attention to. But if it's a thought, you're concerned, fear, like fearful thought about something that's in the past, well, I mean, we can let that go because, yeah, that's in the past. And even if it's a fearful thought about something that might happen in the future, again, we can let that go because it's not harming us right now. And instead of thinking about what to do to prevent harm to ourselves in the future, instead of thinking about it from a fearful place, from a stressed out anxious place, we can think about it from that place of what would love say or love do, you know? Like, yeah, so, oh, that makes so much sense. I love it, I love it. Yay!

And very calm. I'm just thinking, if you're having these awful thoughts about anything, it's very, very calming just to think, right, what would love say? And then love's response would be the complete opposite. It would be calming, it would be comforting, and then you do feel better. It does work.

Okay. I could keep talking to you forever and ever. It feels like because I'm having so much fun and I know we need to start wrapping up, but maybe just one last, last question.

Yes. Okay. So because I just love what you're saying so much about, you know, asking this question of like, What would love say thing to? How would we respond? I mean, I think that's just such a brilliant. That is just such a brilliant question. It's such a brilliant frame and perspective to take on. So the question is how to like if you can give us a tip on how we can really begin to practice or train ourselves to really think and see from that perspective. Because I mean, again, going thinking back to how I used to be, the struggles that I went through, it's like it was. Like, if you said to me, like, what would love say in this situation, I would be blank. I wouldn't be able to think about it because, like, it was such, I mean, I was so divorced from that knowing, that I literally would not be able to tell you. Yeah. And so like, what do we do so that we can begin to sort of see or know more and more clearly the answer to that? So it's like, well, I would love to, if I can't, if I don't know, if I… What do I do to help me start figuring it out?

I think, imagine that the person you love most in the world has come to you with these worries or these thoughts. And what would you say? Because again, we speak to other people differently than we speak to ourselves. So imagine what you would say to that person. If you've got children, what would you say to your child if they came to you with that problem? What would you say to your parents if they were struggling with that thought? Or your friends? And I think there you will, you'll be able to feel the loving thought because you love that person, so that love will be coming out. So that's probably how I'd do it if you were struggling. Think of a loving thought. And it's just remembering to do it. I think even I've actually written it on my hand before. Think, you know, just choose loving thoughts or think love or whatever kind of prompts it for you. But yeah, it helps. So you constantly look at it and think, ah yeah. And if your thoughts are starting to run away with you, you can, you can bring it back then.

Ah, this is why I was saying towards the beginning about like the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Again and again, you're demonstrating to me the wisdom that you have because, wow, I mean, what you just said, shared in terms of that strategy of think of someone that you love comes into you with that problem, how that is such a brilliant that is such a brilliant way of approaching that. Like, if you were having anyone was having that problem, that would be such a brilliant thing to do. It makes me want to ask you so many more questions, but I'm going to force myself to…

Well, thanks. Really, thank you.

No, you're so welcome. You're so welcome. Any last thoughts you want to share with folks?

I don't think so. No. Again, I think that one of the most important things is to always make sure that your thoughts are coming from love, because then they're coming from the right place. They're coming from your spirit. They're not coming from me. And the more you do it, the more you get your mind starts to do it naturally and things change. I'm not the same person I was a few years ago. I don't have anxiety anymore. I very rarely worry now because I've got all these tips and techniques. So yeah, you can change the way you think. It's just, just work and just keeping going and write it on your hand because that does remind you.

Thank you so much for that, Emma. And for my last reminder to everyone who's listening, watching, is to please make sure you check the show notes, because we will be dropping Emma's links in there so you can connect with her, check out her book, and just get the help and support that you need whenever you're ready for it. And until we connect next time, I wish you lots and lots of bliss and joy in this. I will say.

Thank you very much.