Spirituality vs Religion: A Personal Connection with the Divine.

Spirituality vs Religion:
A Personal Connection with the Divine.
Patris Angel & Samia Bano

Struggling to create #innerpeace &/or a deeper #spiritualconnection?

Listen now to this interview with Patris Angel, Founder of Angel Star Coaching, to understand the deep connection between spirituality and #mentalhealth, and how you can follow a #heartcentred, non-dogmatic path to connecting with the Divine across traditions.

We explore how rituals, prayer, and practices can lose meaning when we become obsessed with doing them perfectly—and how returning to heart-centered connection is the real goal.

About Patris:

I am Patris Angel, an artist–singer, event organiser and writer – who founded a #coachingbusiness called Angel Star Coaching.

I am originally French, lived many years in Venice, Italy and am now based in the UK.

My big vision is to help humankind evolve by recognising and cultivating their inner potential.

I pretty much experimented on myself by getting a Black Belt in Shaolin Kung Fu, practicing the Wim Hof Method on a daily basis, and swimming outdoors all year long in a mermaid tail.

If you have a dream, I can help you get there!

I offer to my clients a transformational journey through #mindfulness, #selfempowerment and Light Language Code guidance.

I love to integrate in my work my art and experience in the many areas I trained in such as #shaolinkungfu, #Meditation, #taichi, #energywork, Performing Arts, Counselling, #lifecoaching, Wim Hof Method and Mermaid Swimming.

I am certified in two #energyhealing modalities and I love to channel multi dimensional information to help my clients gain self knowledge and get to their next step.

I can help:

-Anyone willing to create a mindfulness routine

-Anyone with a big dream yet unsure how to get there

-Anyone wanting multi dimensional guidance to get to their next level

-Anyone wanting to navigate Ascension in their flow

I can offer my services in English, Italian or French – all tailored on what’s needed and I love to collaborate with same minded colleagues!

Learn more and connect with Patris at: angelstarcoaching.com

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: https://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

#SpiritualHealing #LightLanguage #MindBodySpirit #EnergyHealing #ConsciousLiving #SurrenderToPeace #SpiritualTrust #SpiritualAwakening #MindfulnessPractice #EmotionalHealing #BreathworkJourney #HolisticLiving #LetGoAndHeal #EmotionalFreedom #innerpeacejourney #liveyourbestlife

Here's the audio version of this episode:

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Full Video Transcript

SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, Privet, Mabuhay, and Dzień Dobry! It's really, really good to be with you again. And I know you'll be so glad you've joined us today because we have very cool guests with us. And it's Patris Angel, who is an artist, singer, event organizer and writer who founded a coaching business called Angel Star Coaching. Welcome, Patris…

PATRIS: Thank you so much.

SAMIA: Oh, Patris, I'm so happy to have you with us today. And will you please tell us more about who you are and what you do?

PATRIS: Okay. So I was born in France. I lived many years in Venice in Italy and now I'm based in the UK. And I started in it as an artist, actress, singer. And then with the crisis hit, I realized that I needed a real job. So I got certified in counseling and I started volunteering for a lovely association called MIND. only to discover that counseling was not for me. But then I had access as a volunteer to a life coaching course and my heart lit up and said, oh, I just so want to help people live a better life and fulfill their potential and reach their dreams and, you know, yeah, live at best they can. So I got certified in that too, and I started my business. And after, you know, the years I started in 2018, and in the years it build up, it started with me being wanting to offer self-empowerment and then understanding that mindfulness was a needed foundation. So I created this course about self-empowerment then the course about mindfulness. And in the last five years, where the words began to be so challenging, something more came up. I'm also certified in Angelic Reiki and so I have the so-called multi-dimensional connections. And I started channeling light language and light codes. And it's, you know, it's like sound or shapes and colors. And what I find so incredible with this code is that they bypass the mind, the conscious mind. And very often my YouTube channel is full. Most of my songs are either in working language because I am a big sci-fi fan, Star Wars and Star Trek, or light language. I have maybe, I don't know, three or four songs in English and I love that because when you listen to a song that you understand the words, you are kind of distracted. The conscious mind kicks in and say, oh, yeah, that's such a lovely song, such a sad song. Or these words, you associate the words with something. So you start thinking and. And the mind takes over.

SAMIA: Yes.

PATRIS: Yeah. When you don't understand the word, it's like a mantra, you know, in Sanskrit or in Tibetan, you will repeat it over and over again. And what remains is the energy of it. So you can fully relax in the energy. And the mind has no idea what it is, what's happening, what it means. So it's quiet because it's too busy because in any case it will probably think, oh, I love this energy. Oh, this energy is so powerful. Wow, what's happening there? But it's not going to associate anything with it. It is just going to be, wow, I love this, what's happening in my body, you know, the light language, it's working directly on ourselves and that is just amazing. It's just bypassing all the chatter. That's why I think it's so, it can be so valuable for mental health and in general as a support. Recently I've been in, you know, meetings about Feng Shui. And I realized that I'm placing the light codes or swing kind of strategical points in my house. And that also can be, you know, bringing something that's coming basically from the heart to the physical plan, to your house or to your physical life. And at the moment, that's where I'm at in my business. I really love to offer experience. So I'm putting together the singing, the arts, the coaching, and now even also events organizations, because at times we need that experience of, I don't know, magical princess ball or a convention or a trip, a retreat, a workshop. So it is something experience is something that we carry in our hearts. and it really, at times, it really helps, like, especially things like retreat or trips in a very incredible place. Again, almost 10 years ago, I went in Stone Age. I still remember it, you know? So... Yes, they are experiences that stay with us and that allow us to have this kind of breakthrough and realizations. And I think it's also how the universe wants to communicate with us, really.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. That is so cool. You made me think of a lot of different aspects of what I've experienced in terms of my own training, my learning, and my healing journey and what's helpful. And a lot of times when one is struggling, with trauma, for example, and your mind tends in that state of trauma to be very overactive actually. And so it can be very helpful to have modalities that sort of help quiet the mind or bypass it.

PATRIS: Yeah.

SAMIA: In order to be and reach something deeper inside of you, because the mind, you know, of course it's doing the best it can, but under when it's traumatized or it's under other deep great stress, it can be very challenging for it. And especially for people who haven't had training in tools and techniques and haven't developed skills for how to calm their mind, or quiet their mind. And even if you have had those trainings and those skills, you can only go so far with, you know, just focusing on your mind and trying to work with your mind anyway.

PATRIS: Yes, because in my experience, it's really balanced between our physicality, our emotions, our mind, our spirituality... And our society is really heavily focused on the mind. When we wake up, we have the phones, we have so many notifications, so many informations at our disposal. That is amazing. But for the mind, it's constantly overactive. And of course, it triggers us. So emotions and emotions trigger thoughts. And so what I found really is grounding, like going in nature, exercising, as crazy as, you know, swimming outdoors all year long, because I really like, you know, and taking the cold showers at home... I really like to stimulate my body so the physical body can also get rid, you know, of tension, stagnant energies, and then also ground... I'm not sure, ground more connect, you know, with spirituality. So connecting to the earth and also, you know, to spirituality. And that's an amazing. It creates almost like a pillar of light, as I see it, and it gives strength to support this mental and emotional stress. One could say that the lifestyle we have at the moment. And it's just amazing to have so much at our disposal. But I think it's really important to kind of find this balance between the different aspects.

SAMIA: Yes, indeed. I agree with you. I agree with you. I mean, our cells, our being is composed of all of these different aspects of us… all of these aspects are so interconnected and interdependent to each other that if you're ignoring any part of you, it begins to have an impact in terms of getting you out of balance. And then you start to struggle. You're like, what's going on? Why I'm doing everything I can to help myself and you know, following all the best advice from my doctor or whatever, you know, but it's still not working. And a lot of times it's that there's something out of balance in your life in an area that you have not paid attention to and that you have not been, you know, conscious of in terms of addressing it and making sure it's part of how you're taking care of yourself and approaching life and so forth. So tell me a little bit more about your understanding of spirituality, because I think that is a unique perspective that you bring. And a lot of people, you know, that sort of like where they are oftentimes struggling in terms of understanding and being able to bring more spirituality into their life. So tell me more about what does spirituality mean to you?

PATRIS: Yeah. So for me, like a little phrase, spirituality would be my own connection with the Divine. And it started, I think one of the problems, you know, in society is that people very often mistake religion with spirituality. And to me, religion, I find it very helpful, but some people would not because they think it's dogma, it's rules, it's... Well, I think the heart of it is the connection with the Divine, whatever name you give them, you know. So I started as a Catholic and I, unfortunately, I lost my dad when I was 17. And by, at that time, really, I was not religious at all, but from that time, going to church was the only way I could find comfort. And I really felt like receiving the Holy Spirit. I was feeling so full of love, like a massive unconditional love. And it started like this. Then I moved to Italy. So of course, you know, I was going so many times to church and all then. I had this intuition. It was so crazy, really, that I could train as a real Jedi. So I started to research, you know, and I found the real Jedi community. And at that point, I opened my mind to, you know, the concept of the spirituality that is universal like the false. But you know someone can be Christian, someone can be a Muslim, someone can be a Buddhist and that Divine spark is inside. So it's just another way of seeing it. But there's everybody as the truth inside because it's just so huge that we can't really reduce it you know, or explain it with the mind. It got to be just like, to me, it feels like a frequency of unconditional love. So it can't be explained. So I started to learn meditation, actually, at a Tibetan Buddhist Center. And then little by little, I opened, I'm so big martial artist. I have a black belt in Shaolin Kung Fu, so also very interesting in Taoism and practicing the Qigong, you know, the energy work. So with time, you know, this... I started opening my heart to that unconditional love and that universality of what for me is spirituality. And to me, I still find that religion and church and all the beautiful, amazing temples and traditions are so helpful. But very often I find it sad also to see that people go to these places just because they are, oh, it's Sunday, I'm going to church. They're not going to, you know, to meet God or for their own, you know, their own connection with the Divine. They're going because it's Sunday. So, you know, their parents or the priest, they say it's good to go on Sunday because it's the day that you go to church. But that's not to me, that's not spirituality. They may be great practitioners of their religions, but I think I don't want to judge because they might have their own way to connect. But to me, it's like when I go to church, I go to, you know, to seek a deeper connection with God. And at times one day if I in the week and I say, oh, I need to go to church. I go to church. And, you know, it's not because I'm obliged or it's a rule or something. It's just a need to connect. And I had a couple of weeks ago, I had an amazing experience. I was in London with friends and one of them actually mentioned that there is an Hindu temple in London. And we went there to visit it and the energy of that place. I have absolutely no knowledge about Hinduism and you know, but I felt the energy. I sat there in meditation and I felt so much love and I even wrote a post about it. It's like, you know, when you in a temple there is the presence of God. But if our body is a temple then we have also the presence of God in our body and others too so we can see the presence of God in others. Like I believe it is what Namaste means I think. So for me that's what is spirituality you know that connection with the Divine that is inside of us, inside of everybody and connecting always deeper with this.

SAMIA: Yeah. Oh, thank you for drawing that distinction. And it's like, to me, it's a little bit sad that in the way that most people experience religion and spirituality, that there is this distinction. Because like, I know for me as a Muslim, ideally, you know, the two are, you know, would come together and support each other in terms of like what the Quran, which is our Muslim holy scripture, it puts so much emphasis on helping us to connect with God, to learn something about who God is, in terms of the qualities of God and then encouraging us to embody those qualities as a way for us to connect more deeply with God, you know. And so that is such a strong aspect of what the Quran teaches us. But on the other hand, you are right for a lot of Muslims. When you are learning about how to live as a Muslim, the emphasis is not on that connection, on cultivating that connection. And almost, I think it's like people don't realize that how there are sort of... It's like you, you want... Like, as a Muslim we, you always hear people talking about how, okay, in Islam there's no clergy and things like that. In Islam, you know, we believe you have a direct connection with God. Like, every person has a direct connection with God, but somehow you know, you just kind of get so busy with trying to like for example, when it comes to prayer, I mean, yes, prayer is supposed to be a way for us to connect with God, but we can become so obsessed with how do you do the prayer? What do you say? How do you move? How do you do it exactly right? And you get so focused on how you're doing, what you're doing, making sure you're doing it just right, and so forth that in some ways all of that becomes more important than the connection part, you know? And it, I don't think we mean to do it deliberately, but, somehow it that ends up happening.

PATRIS: I think it's a desire we have to pay respect to God and say, oh, I need to be the best I can. Like doing perfectly the moves and the words and thinking each word I'm saying and seeing it the right way, in the right place, because God is so perfect and I need also to do that because I respect Him. But I think at least, you know, in, I'm sure, I'm pretty sure it's like this in Islam, too. But, you know, for instance, in the Christianity, it's really the Divine Mercy as long as your heart has the intention to give that respect to God, you know, as long as you're not, I don't know, in the swimsuit or, you know, being really disrespectful, you know, if your heart is it's really respectful and say, I'm doing the best I can and what I want is really to connect from my heart to yours and to tell you how much I love you, for instance, or receive your unconditional love and forgiveness. I think that, you know, God would love that instead of saying, I need to be perfect and just lose it all, you know, lose the connection because you're going you know, too focused on, oh, what I'm wearing and where I am and what, and I know it's, it's a balance to find, probably. I know in the Catholic Church, at times there are so many, you know, very long services and spending a lot of money, and that's a so balanced because I know for instance, in Italy, we have amazing church. It's so beautiful. So it's, in my opinion, it helps connect with God. But then I also think, yes, but there are also children who are dying because they have no food. So, you know, being, having always this, this balance and also so many ways to connect with God and through actions to always, always seeing God also in other people and serving them as we serve God, because this also is a way to serve him.

SAMIA: Yeah. You know, you mentioned that you practice martial arts. And so I was thinking in, if you have some insight in terms of, because, you know, when you are learning martial arts or practicing martial arts. There is a way you're taught to do things in terms of postures and so forth. And so in that context, we know there is a value to doing things in a certain way. Like for example, if you want to take a certain posture, there may not be just one way to do it right, but there are definitely, for example, there may be some ways to do it that are not so optimal. Because if you are, for example, taking a posture that's not naturally aligned for in terms of how our body is made and created, it can actually block energy flow and, you know, and cause imbalance for us. And so to recognize that and in that context with that recognition, if you have a certain desire or goal to be like, okay, you know what? I want to know how to be in this posture in the best, most naturally balanced, aligned way. I mean, there is a value to that. But then at the same time. You know maybe one can get too obsessed or too focused on, you know, like being perfect with it because like, and so then if you get too focused on being perfect with it, then it's like, what are you losing on the other side? What's the other thing? Because the martial arts, I think for a lot of people in America, in popular culture, all they think about is, oh, fighting and these movies where people are doing fancy fighting tricks and stuff, but like truly that's not what martial arts are about. And so can you tell me a little bit more from that perspective?

PATRIS: So I practiced so many martial arts before finding the martial arts that I really really resonated with. And this is Shaolin Kung Fu. And Shaolin Kung Fu is actually the way of the monks. It's for them, it's a religion really. They're like, you know, and my master is Italian but is a civilian monk. And it was actually telling us how much in China, the young generation, they're not really interested in spirituality. They want to go to Hollywood and do the movies, fighting and all. But you know, Shaolin Kung Fu, there are competitions. But the learning is we learn the forms. We learn to condition our body. We learn also after a certain level, we are recommended to take us to Tai Chi, because you know, the so-called learning to be slow in order to be fast, Chi kung like the circulation of energy. But I have really a story that fits what you said because when I was preparing my black belt, I was also at the same time moving in the UK, so it was so much to do. And at a certain point during a group class, during the last like, I would not say generically also, but one of the last classes before the exam, he said to all the people, to all the students, you know, maybe you will think that each time you get prepared for an exam, you're not prepared right. You're not prepared as you should be. And it's always what I thought, because as an artist, I know how to prepare perfectly and all, and he said, I don't really want you to... No, he said, like, you know, in order to perform a form perfectly, everybody can do that. Like, if you really focus on it, like, for years, you will do the move perfectly. But I don't want to see that. I want you to see you in a position where you're stressed because you don't feel ready. And how you manage to get over this stressful situation. And I thought, and you know, I had two forms to present, one bare hands and one with the staff. And I was really stressed with the form of the staff. And the master actually waited like three days or four days before the exam to teach me the end of that form. And I think maybe it told actually me that when when he did that. But, you know, it's really... Then, of course, it depends, because if I had to go into competition, like an international competition of forms, he would have wanted me to focus on being perfect to earn points at that competition. But, like, in order to get the black belts, he wanted something more, like really see how I was managing stress. And this can be also a lesson for my life instead of just saying how good I am in the form. You know, it's great to be good at it, but in daily life problems, it's rather useful unless, you know, someone attacks you and you defend yourself. It's, you know, why knowing how to manage stress is so useful. So it's that balance in that case. Used that learning that form and then passing the exam as more of an exam about character than about, you know, the physical form of that exercise. And I think that it's exactly the same really. And I think unfortunately in many martial arts that type of spirit is slowly getting lost because of the all amazing films we see or people wanting to learn a martial art because they just want self-defense but there's so much more behind it and that's why I really love so much Shaolin Kung Fu. At the moment I'm actually still doing chi kung with him because after COVID and it went, it went on with the online lessons. So that's great. 

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah. But please tell me more about this because, you know, I think this is sort of like the reason I brought this up is I know, like, for Muslims, but I think people in other faith traditions can also relate to this. We all have different rituals that we are taught. Like, I know in Hinduism, there's so many rituals that people are taught to practice. You mentioned different rituals in the Catholic Church, in Islam, we have different rituals that we practice. And a lot of them, you know, require you to have certain forms, certain positions of the body that you have to take and so on, so forth. But, and I know, I know that in our minds, you know, there is this idea that to practice these things will help us to feel better, to feel more peaceful, to feel more calm and so forth. And I know, and I know, like, for a Muslim, that is very important you know, as a value, to actually feel calm, to feel peace. Because, you know, we are taught that, oh, you know, God is the source of Peace. God is a source of all these good feelings that we experience. And so when you experience those good, those good feelings, it's like an indication that you are connecting to God, right. And so given all of this understanding, it's like for me, it's like, so ironic and so sad when you know, what happens is that were not able to feel the peace. We're not able to feel that connection, even though we are doing all these practices that are supposed to help us with that. And so I, if you can tell us a little bit more about, you know, like you said, there's the form, but then there's the managing of the stress. And so what have you learned? Like, what are some... I know it's not something you can just talk about, there is a lot of it has to do with practicing and experiencing, but if there's any insight, any tip you can give in terms of how, you know, you do manage the stress and how the form helps you or allows you to manage the stress, like the connection between those two things and what you have learned of something that of what you have learned in that context.

PATRIS: So, yes. So what I learned is that the danger of repeating the same forms is that after a while we had, like, on autopilot. And so the mind is keep continuing rushing. So we, we kind of lose the peace because, yes, we're doing the same form physically, but as we know them so much, our mind is just disconnected because it doesn't have to be with us anymore because our body knows it. And I noticed it even in Kung Fu or Tai Chi and my favorite chi kong exercise. And it's an exercise that is meant actually to make us feel peaceful. It's like just a breathing exercise. It's very, very static, almost no move. It's just focusing on breathing. And I think, and it's something even from Master said that breathing is the only system in our body that we can really control. So starting with breathing makes all the difference. And then usually the chi kung session is like we're doing this breathing and then we are doing the forms and after the breathing we are feeling so peaceful that we are really able to perform the form completely in the here and now because the mind is quiet. And I also practice from time to time yoga. And I know that in Kundalini yoga especially we start with the so-called pranayama, which is breathing exercises. And then after we start with a session or I think they have name, but you know, with the moves. So to me, you know, the breath is really something that we can use to bring peace. And I know that everybody is different because even in meditation, I was a meditation facilitator for this Mind Association. And very often people with mental health issues already, you know, the trauma in the head, like you said before, I was asked to do mindfulness, but it was too much for these people because it was like being alone with their mind and all the agitation. So I usually was starting with relaxation. At times, you know, the sound of Tibetan bowls or something, like focusing on something different. Some because at times, you know, breathing, some people can just like, breathe very shallow or... It's all exploring what is working and it can also evolve. And even with the breathing, it can be in different ways. It can be very physical, like placing the hands on the belly and just focusing on the movement. It can be like hearing, focusing on the sound of breath. It can be focusing on the air going in and out of the nose. it can be so many things. It could be counting a breath. I know that 10 monks actually, they do this counting, you know, in and out is one. They come to 10, then back to one, ever and over again. And it's just a different way, different ways of working with the breath. There are also breaths like, you know, breathing for four, breathe, hold for seven and breathe on for eight and that is just so relaxing. So I would say, you know, definitely finding our own way to work with our breath, it's really what can bring a sense of peace and a sense even of space, you know, the idea of being able to release, to take new energy and to release. So Yes, definitely breathing…

SAMIA: Ah, so breathing... I mean, wow. I mean, it has so many ways in which it helps, like helps you feel more grounded, helps you get more in the moment. And just, you know, taking in that positive energy, like life-giving energy into you know, it's remarkable just how something so simple that we take for granted. Yes. But it has, like, such a, you know?

PATRIS: Yes…

SAMIA: ..you know. Yeah. So it's and the other thing that I want our listeners to realize is that like even with the breathing, you know, it's like just going back to this idea of keeping in mind that yes, there are all these like different techniques and patterns that you can follow to help you with using breathing as a way to ground you and feel more calm and all that good stuff. But it's again, it's like if we become too focused on the how of it, and then you're like, am I doing it right? Did I do it right? Did I do it perfectly? Then you kind of lose it again, you know like, and that's not, that's not the... Like, you again missed the point. And I think is that, I think that is one of the struggles that people have and you know, it's so easy to like, you know, when I started different practices to help me become more like, help me cultivate more of the feeling aspect of connecting.

PATRIS: That's exactly what I was about to say.

SAMIA: Yes.

PATRIS: Like centering on the heart. And that's why I like to work so much with the light codes, because it's like a trap for the mind. Because the mind doesn't understand it. So the Mind cannot kick off and say, oh, I found this, this, this, and what does it mean? It's just like... It's just an experience. And I think that people really need to relearn how to experience and feel life instead of thinking life and having, you know, this life in the head, but losing completely that the connection with the physical feeling, the emotion, the energy, the feeling of energy. And I think, you know, the feeling of our body, the feeling of our emotion and the feeling of energy is exactly like spirituality, spirit, emotion and physical. And it's like most people, I think, in our society live like 90% of the time in their mind and lose everything else. So I think that the tip is really realizing at each moment that we can experience life without feeling and without necessarily I'm thinking, and it's just good as it is, it doesn't have to be perfect or whatever. And then, of course, at times, we need to use the mind when. When we need to learn something. But it doesn't have to be only this. It should just be a parts of our experience, I think.

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah. It's just, you know, like, this is something that I'm, you know, still practicing. So that's why I keep coming back to this point, because I've been experiencing the challenge of, you know, just how easy it is for the mind to come back and dominate when we are trying to cultivate and engage in all these practices that are meant to help us cultivate the experience, the feeling of connection with the divine, the feeling of just feeling peace and calm and stuff. And the mind keeps wanting to come back in because that's like, I know for me, like, I was so dependent on my mind. I was so trained to always be using my mind. And so to let my mind rest and not be in charge is like just been one of the biggest challenges or rather learning opportunities that I've been experiencing.

PATRIS: I think that it's because our mind and our society, you know, when we think and we understand something with our mind, it feels safe because, oh yeah, I know that. I learned that. I understand that. It feels safe. When we're like diving into, you know, just the ocean of emotions or diving into the ocean of feelings, that there's no understanding, there's no knowing, that's just feeling. And that can be very scary, I think. So it's like a survival instinct saying, no, no, no, no, no. You need to understand that because maybe it's not safe. Careful I think that's what happens.

SAMIA: I think you're right. I think you're right. And so it's like in terms of our being able to effectively engage in these practices, then maybe we need to be conscious of and make sure or if you're working with a teacher, I'm sure the teacher helps make sure to create a context where you can feel safe, you know, and so then, you know, easier for us to allow our mind to be quiet. And I know, like, for a lot of times when we're learning these different modalities, the teacher will start by giving some information so that your mind can have a sense of understanding of, okay, this is what we're going to be doing, and this is why we're going to be doing it, and this is how it can help. And so you're, it's like a good teacher will generally not ignore the needs of the mind. You know, they will give you the, your, your mind the information it needs. But then, like, okay... But then also, like, let's not be obsessed.

PATRIS: Yeah. There is also something interesting because it's especially in the Western world that we are so mind focused. Because indeed in my Kung Fu school, they are very often exchanged with China and Chinese masters. And the masters in China, they don't talk. They do the form and the students need to copy the form, that's all. They practice over and over again like this. And as my master is in Italy, he needed to actually adapt it to Italian students that want to understand. So he needs to talk. But he always says in China, the Masters don't talk. And when they come to Italy, they don't talk. They just do when you need to copy. And it's like... I think it's really the way of life we have in the Western world that is so centered on the mind and the need to understand and explain everything. But I think we went too far a little bit with that. So definitely balance need to be found because otherwise it's really the mind taking over and it becomes very stressful.

SAMIA: Yeah. So if you were to like follow a way where our tradition, where... You know, you're just being taught the form and no talking about what it is and why it is, it's actually, I mean, clearly, is it like maybe just like a person, personal thing like in the sense that you know some people, I mean everyone has different personalities, different characters, so some things work for some people, some things work better for other people. So is it just that you know different students need different ways of learning? So for some people the not talking, just following, practicing the form that they're shown, that is enough. But other people need other things added. So is it just some of that or can or because, I mean, again, I'm thinking to my experience of like the different, how I grew up in my religion and of Islam, you know, I've had some of this experience of just being taught the form of how to do the ritual prayers. And there is an expectation that when you engage in those forms and you perform the ritual prayers, it will help you experience peace. For me, it didn't work like that. Like when I was like seriously traumatized and so unhappy and so struggling with my happiness, my mental health, I was praying like that. I was performing the forms. I was performing the rituals diligently because I was like, and I was doing it you know, with the knowing and expectation that they would help me experience peace because that's what I was taught that you do, you pray, praying helps you experience peace, but it wasn't working. It wasn't helping me experience peace, maybe a tiny little bit, but not really. And so like for me, I was like, there's something wrong here. Either I'm praying wrong or God's angry with me. Like, why is it, why am I not experiencing peace? And so like, for me, I had to go on this, like, big long journey of like, trying to figure things out and like, one of the things that, like, once I started to learn a little bit more about okay, well, what are we doing with prayer? What is the different meaning of the things that I'm doing? It started to help me feel more connected to what I was doing and find it to be more meaningful. And, you know, it's like when you're actually performing the rituals, you can't be thinking about all that. But having done, taken some time to think about it, to learn about, you know, like, what I was actually doing seemed to help me. So I don't know if it's just like my individual personality, because I have a personality that was so mind dominated, or if it was, you know, again, like, what... But yeah…

PATRIS: I think it's export, you know, the word you said, expectation. And I think it's that obstacle because, and when, when I learned to bit in meditation, you know, a lot of people who want to learn meditation, they come and they say, I want to learn meditation because I want peace of mind. Oh, I want to quiet my mind. And if they sit down in meditation with that expectation, the mind will probably. They will say, no, I'm still not peaceful. It's not. There's something wrong. I'm doing it wrong. And the mind is coming.

SAMIA: Yeah.

PATRIS: And so the Buddhist asked the tea. They said, you know, meditation is not meant necessary to quiet the mind. It's meant to for you to observe. And to be okay with whatever is. So today you will sit in meditation, you will feel no peace and you will say, okay, I acknowledge that I feel no peace. I'm okay with it. I'm just experiencing the fact that I'm feeling no peace.

SAMIA: Yeah.

PATRIS: I don't like it, but I'm okay with it. And the second day you will find, oh, I love that. It's so peaceful today. I love that. And that, you know, it's great. But very often for many people, it's trapped because the third day that we come back and they say, okay, I absolutely want to experience the same thing as yesterday, the same piece. And so they will expect that. So how did I do yesterday? What did I do? Why I can't feel that today?

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

PATRIS: Instead of saying, you know what? Yeah, yesterday was great. So it means that at times it happens. Today it's not that great, but I need to be okay with it. And that is the training, you know, Buddhists actually teach with the mindfulness meditation is just being okay with whatever it is. So after the mind is trained, you create a distance between you and your feelings, your thoughts, and you can say, okay, yeah, I'm feeling that, but it's okay. I just let it be. And most of the time, when you do that, the feeling is going instead of saying, oh, I'm not a piece. I can't do that today. I'm terrible at many. And, you know, on and on and on... And in Venice, when I started meditating, I had, I was in a house when under the house there was a restaurant. It was so noisy. And so I really started meditating in really not the right, the best place and the best conditions. It was so noisy and I really thought myself saying, okay, it's noisy, guess what? I'm going to take the noise as, you know, object of meditation. And after a while it was like, okay, I know it's noisy. I know it's not the best, but I'm okay with it. And it's, and when I actually was meditation facilitator, we had a room right next to the cafe of the place. So it was also noisy. So I turning this to, you know, my students saying, you know, it's not the ideal place, but, you know, it's observation and being okay with the noise and be okay with the fact that it's not the best place for meditation, you know, and that's, I think how we can experience peace more, more easily when we just, we the flow of the present moment and not in the expectation of having this perfect feeling of peace. When we have this even acceptance of feelings and conditions, I think it's wellness so we can have the connection with God.

SAMIA: Yes, you're so right. That's exactly what I'm learning now, is my teacher. He's like, you know, you have to let go of everything of you. So you have to let go of your expectations, your desires. You have to let go of your judgments. Like, am I, you know, all the judgments around, I'm not feeling peace. I must be doing it wrong. Or, oh, even if you're starting to feel good, and then you're like, oh, I'm feeling good. I must be doing it right. And now suddenly you've, like left the feeling, and now you're back in your mind, you know, and letting go of the judgments, the desires, expectations. It's such a huge, huge aspect of what it really takes to feel what it is that we need and want to feel that is peace.

PATRIS: That's actually kind of second phase in meditation that we practice once. And it's actually observing the observer. So observing the constant judgment or chatter, like, oh, I'm good today. It's so school. It's really great what I'm doing. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, it's not good. I'm not, I'm not in the best moods. And I can't switch, you know, shift my mood. How can I shift my mood? And, you know, when you observe that, it's like, okay, yeah, it's back. No worries. You know, it's starting to be a little bit of, you know, observing that judgment and even, you know, the ideal thing of it is that it's like saying, okay, the self-observe is judging again. But guess what? I'm feeling compassion. I'm offering that compassion for this and for myself. And that, I think, it's you know, another level we can reach always, you know, being okay with what it is and being self-compassionate because. it's so easy to beat ourselves down. So…

SAMIA: That's true. That's true. And it's like with them, you know, it's just, I think, a profound learning that, you know, when we are going through these challenging times of feeling stress, feeling anxiety, feeling the deep sadness that we don't want to be in, you know, one of the great opportunities that is present in that experience is for us to learn these deeper lessons about letting go and, you know, practicing non-judgment because it's like, I know when I first started learning about these concepts, of letting go, surrender. In some ways, you know, it made sense, like intellectually make made sense. And I was like, yeah, of course that I'm willing to do that. Especially, like, if you tell me, oh, when you do that, it helps you feel more peaceful, then of course I'm on board. Like mentally, logically, okay, I'm now on board, but it's like one thing to be like, okay, logically, mentally, I'm on board, but it's another thing to be able to actually practice that, you know? And so when you want to practice that, you can't practice that in a vacuum. I mean, if everything's going very well for you, you're feeling happy, I mean, it's good to practice these things in those easier conditions, as it were. But really, the most critical time for us to practice these things or to experience these things is when we are being challenged. And so the only way you can get good enough, as it were, to engage in the practice during the hard moments is by going through the hard moments. And struggling through your practice of these practices through the hard moments, you know…

PATRIS: Actually, you're very lucky to, you know, mentally be on board with that because, you know, I'm more of a warrior. So I'm like, no, I'm not letting go. I'm not surrendering, I'm fighting, I'm not accepting. And, well, this my personality and that's what I am. But I learned to actually understand the difference between giving up and surrendering because those are two different things. You know, like a warrior in the battlefield who surrenders, they give up. But when you surrender, I had to understand surrendering to what? And surrendering to what is surrendering either to our higher self, to God, to the Universe. So it's a surrendering of to a person or a figure or an energy that I trust. And that, I think, to me, surrendering is more about trusting and faith because otherwise it's like, no, no, I want the control, you know? And that's mental. And I think it's also why probably like, because are working so well with me because it's like beyond you need to surrender to it because you can't understand it with your mind. So the mind needs to kind of let go of the grip to be willing to understand, because in any case, it well, the last code gives me energy and information on mental level. And I got a confirmation a couple of weeks ago. That's confidential, but I got an information about a client that only her knew. And she was like, wow. And I got that information through the code. But in that case, it's still surrendering, it's still an opening to whatever information is coming. So it's a form of surrendering and at that point it's like the mind can access the gift or the knowledge it needs at the moment. And I think that's another thing that is really important that when we come to surrender in that way, solutions can arrive because we allow them to arrive instead of fighting against the process.

SAMIA: Yeah.

PATRIS: And that's... I have to understand that before, like, saying, okay, I surrender to the universe because I trust the universe. Otherwise, I was like, no, no, no. So, that was really massive for me.

SAMIA: Yes. It goes back to the need that we have for safety, right. It's like if you don't feel safe surrendering, if you don't feel safe letting go of whatever it is, whether it's your judgments or your desires or whatever, then you, you will struggle to let go. You will not want to let go. But if you can feel safe, then you're like, okay, fine. I'm willing to let go. That was a that I must say... Yeah. That was the experience, too…

PATRIS: I think it's like children, you know, when a parent doesn't want a child to do something, you know, if the parent doesn't explain or there's no trust between the parent and the child, the child will not let go of it. They want this. And, you know, they were crying scream, but if there's this good relationship, this good connection, and if the parent just say, it's not good for you, and the child, you know, they know that they're loved and that the parents want the best for them. So they will say, okay, well, I, you know, maybe another time, but they will not so be so screamy and, you know, crying and all shouting. So I think it's comes down to trusting, really.

SAMIA: Yes. And like, for me, it's realizing that, you know, the trust, this kind of trust that we need in order to be able to surrender, to let go, you know, for us like, for me, it developed over time, and it's continuing to develop and grow. And it develops and grows through the experience of living your life and taking some, like initially, you know, like when you start engaging in these practices, it's like you're taking a little bit of a risk or maybe it might feel like a big risk. But, you know, to the extent that you allow yourself take the risk and it pays off. It gives you a little bit more confidence to go deeper the next time and the deeper the next time. And so like for me, the trust and the faith has been deepening and it's been making it easier and easier to let go of more and more and more…

PATRIS: It's a journey, I think.

SAMIA: Yeah. Oh my gosh, Patris, I could keep talking to you all day. I think we need to wrap up. But do you have any last thoughts? Please do share…

PATRIS: Just the invitation to allow you know, for anyone who is listening to allow yourself to experience life, to feel life. And to connect with spirituality in any way, shape or form that is comfortable for you because that can help you in so many ways. Massive support and it's available at all times. It's unconditional love and it's also helping with connecting with other wonderful human beings.

SAMIA: Yes. Oh, thank you so much for that, Patris. And I will just remind our audience, please make sure you check the show notes because we will be dropping Patrice's links in there. So you can be sure to connect with her and get the help and support you need whenever you're ready for it. And so until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)