SAMIA: Hello, Salam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao and Bonjour!

I'm so happy today. And I'm sure you'll be very happy too because I have a special guest Chris Anderson. He's a Serial Entrepreneur and the Founder of Pencil Leadership. And I'm so excited for him to be here and to talk to us more about who he is and what he does. And actually Chris, please jump in and tell us more about who you are and what you do.

CHRIS: For sure, absolutely. Thank you Samia for having me on the show first off. I'm excited to be here and just be able to share and hopefully drop some nuggets, maybe add some value. And I hope I'm not too boring, so I'll try to bring the energy, but yeah…

A little bit about me, really nothing special about me... I mean, honestly we all are unique individuals with purposes in this world and I'm just trying to live in the mine. Born and raised here in the United States in Indiana. So country boy here, corn fields surrounding me still. Nothing spectacular, except that it is… it's just a really cool place to be. And so I tried to see the best and all that... But my journey as you stated, “Serial Entrepreneur, Founder of Pencil Leadership”... I've always kind of had my hand in the cookie jar. I guess you could say trying to figure it out, you know, what's the secret to entrepreneurship, how do you build a business, how do you become successful in it… And I'm still working towards it. I would say I'm never gonna... I'm always a learner, I'm always a student, and I always want to get to that next level and just continue to improve. Because when I get better, when I succeed, others succeed, others get better, because I'm able to kind of be a reflection of what I've learned and put it out there. And that's kind of what started my journey to founding Pencil Leadership. Funny enough, it started as my podcast, back in 2019, yeah... Pencil Leadership Podcast. And at the same time, I was like… I really like what this means, I really like this direction, I'm going to LLC it, and I'm going to create a, you know, just a private business with that. I don't know what it's going to look like, I don't know what form or shape it'll take, but I have the idea, I see the vision, and we'll just kind of run with it. And that was kind of the main entrepreneurial step I've taken. I've had small things in the past you know, just but this/that, didn't have the discipline, didn't have the the knowledge, didn't have... sometimes really the courage to really go in hardcore with them… And finally decided, this is it, this is what I'm gonna do. And so I started building that out… And not making millions yet, always try to be transparent. Not at that level yet, but doing well enough where I can do it full time and just continue to scale that. But, it's really all about, for me, helping others see their true potential in themselves so they can leave their positive mark on the world at the end of the day. So…

SAMIA: That's awesome, and I love what you said about always being a student. I'm like that too. And it just... I love it, it just brings so much learning and growth and joy in my life. And… so what was it about the idea of Pencil Leadership when you… that made you really commit to it and keeps you going around it, like, what is it all about that's so awesome?

CHRIS: Yeah. So Pencil Leadership… it was from a story I read about a pencil maker, who's making this pencil and kind of wanted the pencil... if you kind of... if you've heard the story of Pinocchio, it's kind of like that. This pencil maker, he's creating something and he wants him to be good, he wants him to go out and have a great life. So he's telling them these different things about life and what to expect. And it just kind of started building in my head, like, I could create a parable or something kind of off that... to help bring a positive message into people's lives just from my past, what I've dealt with… I was like, that's what we need, that's what people need out there in the world.

And there's five traits to it. And I can dive into the whole story… I can tell you a whole story. But basically a Pencil has to be held to leave a “mark”, it goes through “sharpenings”, it has an “eraser”, the “lead” on the inside is the most important thing. And it's unique, it's not a pen, it's not a paintbrush, so it has a unique purpose in the world. And so those five traits, which we can expound on, just really correlate into our lives and how we are as individuals, as people on this planet. And yeah, I just, I really... In the beginning, I just wanted to help people and, you know, starting out it's like, how does that look or what's that look like? What's the problem I can solve as an entrepreneur? And so it's... there's the big vision with pencil leadership and it's still in the infancy stage for sure, but there's so much that I want to do with Pencil Leadership that I'm just continually, you know, planting seeds, building that foundation, so one day it could be what I dream of it to be. But it... yeah… it really kind of, it stems from my past, my story, and then stumbling on that story and having it be able to relate to the lives of everyone who hears it hopefully.

SAMIA: Would you share a little bit more about your story and how it connects to the five traits of Pencil Leadership that you were talking about earlier?

CHRIS: Yeah, so my story is kind of... the main part… in high school here and then into college, really struggled with who I was as a person and kind of where I fit in the world. Got to the point where, like, I didn't think it mattered if I was here, you know… contemplated, taking my life multiple times. And just, you know, just fill out a place… didn't feel like I fit. Even if I was on teams or in groups or things like that, I just was kind of an outcast in my mind. Now I had a great family, amazing friends, it was just a lot of my mindset, and just little things that happen in upbringing that affect a lot of people. I know I'm not alone on this and that's the thing. And so thankfully I had mentors in college that guided me and helped me come through these painful things, these sharpening. So they were my... they were the ones holding me, helping me leave my mark through these sharpenings, these hard times that I went through. And I made mistakes along the way too… and how to work on fixing those mistakes. And that's where an eraser for a pencil comes in. And really had to focus on who I was on the inside.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: Because that's my lead, that's what's going to leave my mark, is how I am on the inside. And finally realizing my worth was not, you know… wasn't in, what other people said, good or bad, it wasn't based on that. It was based on who I was created to be, and what I am able to do through my talents and abilities and skills that only I possess in that kind of combination.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: And so that was, that's all Pencil Leadership, that's all those traits. And we can dive into those more because it just, in everyone's lives they can... they have some sort of connection to the story if they truly listen to it.

SAMIA: Yeah... yes… You know, just when you were sharing your story I found some similarities in your story and my story. We have obviously a different background and all that, but I know what it feels like, also, to feel alone and lonely even when you are in a crowd, even when you're surrounded by family and friends that love you. And it's a hard place to be. And yeah… And then you said one of the things that helped you come out of that was when you found some mentors in college. And actually for me also that happened. Like, college– getting into college was a huge turning point for me. And my main mentors in college were my professors. I had very poor social skills at that time. I didn't know how to make friends, I didn't know how to keep friends. But with my professors… I was like a great student in the sense that I listened with attention, I did everything that they told us to do. And I was curious and I wanted to learn more. And so I asked lots of questions. And I just found these teachers who, I guess, really appreciated that curiosity in me and wanted to encourage that in me. And so they would ask me more questions and encourage me to talk more to them. And I just learned so much outside the classroom, in that process of just these conversations that I started having with my professors. And my gosh, I learned so many amazing things. Can you share one, one big lesson that you learned from a mentor that's still with you, that you found really valuable?

CHRIS: It's a good question. I actually asked this to my guest too and I've never had the kind of camera pointed at me on it. There's so much... there's so much that I've been privileged to have told to me, or taught to me in life. And one of the big ones that I would say, and it's not going to be exactly the words that were used, but the message that I received more than once, from…So my brother, he was the assistant soccer coach. He's about 13 years older than me. And so he was the assistant soccer coach for my team. An amazing coach, one of my biggest mentors and heroes next to my dad and a few others… would always tell us, like, “If you're hurting that's one thing, but you've got to keep moving forward. Things are hard. You've got to keep moving forward, no matter what”.

Now there's a time to take care of yourself, there's time to, you know, pause or heal, but you've got to keep moving forward in any/some way. If you can't run, you've got to motivate your teammates. If you can't kick a soccer ball, you've got to, you know, help the guys below you… like, you've got to help coach them. Like, there's always something you can do to move forward or move the team forward. So no matter what, in your hardest times keep moving forward. And that's one big thing I would say, just right now, on the top of my head that I remember and I still think of it today.

Like... because the journey of entrepreneurship, the journey of life, anything in life… you're gonna get kicked around, you're gonna get knocked down, there's gonna be those hardships, those sharpenings, that we all go through. And they all look different, but they all are uncomfortable, they all hurt, and they all take part of us in some way -- emotionally, mentally… And we've got to keep moving forward, we've got to keep growing, we've got to keep helping in, and just taking... even if it's a crawl, we just got to keep moving in the right direction, because the only true failure in life is when we quit.

SAMIA: Yes.

CHRIS: And so we just got to keep moving forward.

SAMIA: Yes. And I love... thank you for giving those more concrete examples of what moving forward can look like. You know, you may not be able to be on the field kicking the ball in a particular moment, but that doesn't mean that's it, that you can't go forward. You can move forward in other ways in terms of being a support to someone else and helping your team because... And that's another thing, right, about the value of the team, that isn't just all about you. And that's actually, oh my gosh, that I must say is one of the things that I found most helpful in my healing journey too. Like, when I was feeling really stuck, and I was for so long, I was just, like, so caught up in my own struggles and, you know, sense of suffering. And my first breakthrough I will say, or one of my first big breakthroughs, was when I saw someone else who needed help, and in that case it was actually my brother. And my brother, he was born with a genetic, rare genetic disorder, because of which his muscles are growing weaker and weaker over the years. And he ended up in a wheelchair. He had an accident that would have been minor for anyone else, but in his case it landed him in a wheelchair. And he's never, never been able to stand on his own feet again. But when he had that accident and he needed help, you know, I had a choice to make. I was like, either I can stay stuck in my own suffering and ignore him and let him suffer. Or I can try and step up and do what I can to help him even as, or through, whatever sense of suffering I'm facing. And I'm so glad that I made that choice to do what I could to try and help him, because that helped me so much to alleviate my own sense of suffering...

CHRIS: Yeah, puts things in perspective too… sometimes worse…

SAMIA: For sure.

CHRIS: Yeah.

SAMIA: Awesome. Tell me more. Give me another, another amazing lesson that you have learned, maybe related to one of the other traits of Pencil Leadership....

CHRIS: Yeah, so we kind of, we've kind of talked about the mentor aspect. That's a huge part… The team… those people, the advisors who impact your life… the sharpenings we all go through… even kind of about the eraser -- how we make mistakes, but if we can own up to them and start to fix them, then they can do more healing. There still might be some scars, there still might be some residual things from those mistakes, but we can move forward, we can learn from them and have that transparency.

And then the lead -- that's the thing that the pencil, the lead, leaves the mark. Doesn't matter what the pencil looks like on the outside… doesn't look like it's brand new, or if it's an old beat up pencil, it's still gonna write with lead. And with us, it's the same thing. If we're not healthy on the inside, that's gonna come out... I mean we can hide it for a long time, we can cover it up, we can wear masks, but eventually that true self, that internal being, that soul, that spirit, that's what's going to come forward. So if we're unhealthy in there, it's going to come out in, you know… it's going to come out in addiction, it's going to come out in anger, it's going to come out in just shutting out people, it's going to come out… And it can come out in really negative things that you would never think about -- overspending, overeating, all this stuff. So we've got to work on that, so our mark is something positive.

So we have those traits, those characteristics that are good and that are healthy. And I think sometimes people don't realize, you know, they show externally like what their heart, what internally is going on, you know. “I, you know, I just have a temper”. Well, do you really have a temper? Or is there something deeper in there that's causing you to have that short fuse because of stress, anxiety or, you know, feeling of inadequacy or something in your past? So we've got to look at a deeper thing so we can go out and leave that more positive mark.

SAMIA: Yeah. How do you help people become more aware of their deeper self and what it's all about?

CHRIS: Yeah, that's… So for me personally, and this is of course me personally, but my faith as a Christian has really played a big part… just learning about that and kind of how I should act. And that's been a big one. And understanding that… Yeah, so for me working on that internal change, for me, one, has been my faith… Just really being able to dive in that and understand, like, doesn't matter where or what people say about me, what they think, or the results I get… there's more to it. And that's been kind of the main, kind of anchor, main driver. But really also taking time to reflect on my life, on my past, on my actions, and kind of break those down… doing some NLP work, Neuro Linguistic...

SAMIA: Programming.

CHRIS: …of course…Programming. Thank you. I don't teach that, but I have people who help me with that. And it's phenomenal just being able to dig and open up these boxes that are buried so deep we forget about… But they're still poisoning our mind and our inside… and being able to kind of release some of that and let it go, and see the world, see our lives differently. So that's been a big one… just internal reflection and just kind of being in silence and listening.

SAMIA: Do you find this internal reflection piece ties in with how you experience and practice your faith and spirituality?

CHRIS: Yeah, I think so. It definitely allows me just that connection to listen to what I feel God is doing in my life, and maybe speaking to me with, and just helping me be more grateful for what He's provided, and what He's led me to do. And I'm super blessed with the life I have. And so yeah... it allows me to kind of settle down and kind of stop making it about me more, and get out of the way and just kind of see what's going on, and see how He's working… And yeah, really just take a step back and relax. And hey, today, right now, is all we have and I'm not promising anything else. So right now, what's going on? What am I seeing? What am I noticing? What's working? What do I need to do?

Because there's so many times we worry and have anxiety about things that don't even matter, that aren't even real. And we have so much going on… we just need to write it down. Write down what the problems are in the moment. And then cross out the ones that we have no control over, which are quite a few of them. And then that way your list gets considerably smaller. And you can actually take action on something instead of having all this negativity, “what if” going on in your head… you can write it down, cross out the things you can't control, and then focus on the things you can.

SAMIA: Yeah… Yay! I love that. I love that. And what you shared about faith being one of the things that really grounds you, I'm with you on that. That's true for me too... yeah… Okay, so we have talked about the sharpening aspect, the core aspect, and then the eraser aspect… And... Do you want to talk a little bit more about the remaining two aspects that we have?

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah. So the main two… we… and we mentioned the mentor, the guide, there at the beginning as well.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: And so the last one… the last one… it kind of wraps it all together, but I think it's the… one of the most powerful. I think the other four are super important and it culminates into this final trait which is "you seeing your purpose", you understanding that you're here for a reason…

SAMIA: Yes.

CHRIS: …And there's no one like you. There's no one that has your quirks, your abilities, your talents, your, you know, your passions. And so there's something for you. And it doesn't have to look like everybody else. Doesn't have to be, “go to school, go to college, get a job, retire”, thing. If that's what it is, great. Then be the best you can, be your best self in those positions, and do it. But if, for your listeners, you're, you know, trying to build something, make money, build a life they love, as I like to say -- find it. See what you are.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: See what you're about and and live in that, because, like I say with that parable… a pencil is unique. And a pen might look at the pencil and say, “why don't you have ink? Why don't you write smooth with ink?” And the paint brush might say, “well, you know, why can't you, you know, paint with beautiful colors? You're just write in lead.” But they can't write in lead. And with lead you can shade, and you can, you know, you can write in different thicknesses, and write on many different surfaces… and there's a purpose to it. And so not to allow those external people or things to affect who you are, the beauty of who you are. And that's kind of the overarching thing. Like, we are all different, but it's all for a purpose and it's all beautiful. So how can we lean into that...

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: ..because if we don't, and we kind of just follow the crowd, because it's safe or because that's what we're told to do… how many people are actually missing out on your gift that need it...

SAMIA: Yes.

CHRIS: ..whatever that is, there are people missing out. It doesn't matter if it's selling hot dogs on the side of the road, people are missing out. Maybe they need… needed food that day super bad. Maybe they just need your smile… But if you didn't follow that path for what you're created to do, those people missed out on that, in that moment. And that could have been the moment they truly needed that… it was a changing point in their life. So that's why it's so crucial. It doesn't matter what it is, it doesn’t matter if you are the CEO, the janitor… doesn't matter what you're doing, as long as you're living into that full potential.

SAMIA: Yes, oh my gosh, I just love that. And that made me think about, you know, there are so many amazing historical figures that I really admire. And one of them is Gandhiji. Well, I call him Gandhi-ji, because I'm Indian. And that's what we do. We add the word “ji” at the end of the name of any person we want to refer to with respect… But I'm now referring to Mahatma Gandhi or Mohandas Gandhi, who is one of the founding fathers of modern India. And most people know him, you know, for leading India to independence using non-violence.

CHRIS: Yep.

SAMIA: And so he was this wonderful model of exactly this point that you were making about… it doesn't matter what you do. It’s about why are you doing it, and are you doing whatever you're doing, are you doing your very best at it, and are you doing it with integrity, you know. And so he used to move around with some of the top leaders, the people in the highest positions of power. And many people would look down on him and laugh at him because… There's this movie made about him, like a biographical pic… And there's a scene in it where there's a meeting of all these, like, top leaders who are making some plans for the independence movement or whatever. And a servant is called forward to serve everyone who's sitting there. And when the... but rather than allow this servant to come and serve him, and serve everyone else, Gandhiji gets up and takes the serving tray away from this person. He's like, "it's all right, I got this”, and he served himself he served everyone else. And, you know, like, some of the leaders were giving him dirty looks and, you know, going like, “why are you doing that? You're gonna give our servant ideas that we don't want them to get. And what's wrong with you…”

CHRIS: Right.

SAMIA: “...doing this menial labor?”, and so forth, you know. But Gandhiji was always, you know… that was part of what made him so human and so relatable and people loved him so much and trusted him so much… Because they could see in him themselves, and they could see… like, even the poorest people, they were able to, like, they felt, like, "ah, he's one of us", you know? He didn't turn his nose up… you know he, like, mended his own clothes and cooked his food, cleaned the bathroom… everything.

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah...

SAMIA: And in that, you know, he presented this amazing model of leadership that inspired literally millions of people, and billions to… actually more accurately… and continues to inspire those billions… just because he was so grounded and so authentic and understood the value of all kinds of work.

CHRIS: Yep. Yeah. And I mean it correlates to… it's just again kind of like the stories of Jesus even, like, washing the feet of disciples and, you know, “First will be last, and last will be first”… and things like that. The servant leadership type image… and I think that's what it is. We sometimes, we get our, let our egos get way too big and get in the way of what truly matters, and that's the people around us. And we're never too high to do the work and serve. And it's what it should be about anyways in business. It's serving the people that are in our audience. And so yeah, that's… Gandhi's a good… many a good quotes from him.

SAMIA: Awesome, awesome. You know, on that very inspiring note I'm going to have us wrap up for today. But you have to come back Chris.

CHRIS: Absolutely.

SAMIA: And I know one really cool thing about you is that not only do you have your own very successful podcast, but you also help others make their podcasts more successful, and monetize them. And I'm doing, actually, a whole series of episodes on how to make it more fun and easy to make money so...

CHRIS: Awesome...

SAMIA: ...you're going to have to come back and talk about that...

CHRIS: ..I'd love to be back.

SAMIA: ..For sure, absolutely.