SAMIA: Hello, Salam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Hola, Bonjour and Ciao!

It's so good to be with you again today, and welcome back to Chris, Chris Anderson, who is a serial entrepreneur and founder of Pencil Leadership… Last time Chris, we talked about what Pencil Leadership is. It's an amazing, amazing model of how you can think about leadership and who you are and how you can be your very best, you know, in that context. And today I thought it would be really, really awesome for us to focus on a very specific aspect of what you do, and that is being an amazing podcaster yourself, and also being someone who is able to help other podcasters monetize their podcast. And I'm really interested in talking to you about this because I'm all about making change fun and easy, and a big part of that is being able to make money more fun and easy.

CHRIS: Absolutely.

SAMIA: So please, please welcome back, and tell us more about who you are and what you do in this context.

CHRIS: Yeah, no, glad to be back! Thanks for having me again. I'm excited to talk about this. I love podcasting. I love what it does and can do for individuals, for businesses, just because it's new, up and coming still. It's still growing, it's the next kind of main medium out there connected with social media... I mean it's gonna, it's overtaking radio and tv as far as sponsorships, ads and listenership, so love it. This is what got me started mainly in my business full time. I mean Pencil Leadership is my podcast and business, for those who missed the other episode I was in with you… And kind of just started taking off from there, and really kind of found my niche within podcasting because I loved it so much, and thankfully had a successful show come from it and was able to start monetizing through that. And so yeah, that's kind of a little bit about this part of me, it kind of just kind of happened because a need arose and people reached out to me about it and then kind of got the ball rolling.

SAMIA: Yeah, cool. Actually, can you tell us what is podcasting? Because I know most of our… a lot of our listeners will be actually listening to podcasts, but we are also going to be sharing the video of this, and...

CHRIS: For sure.

SAMIA: …Some of our people will not be very familiar with what exactly... I think a lot of people have a sort of idea now. But a lot of people are still kind of confused about what a podcast is and how it's different from everything else out there.

CHRIS: Yeah, so basically, a podcast is an audio only segment. Think radio talk show, but most of the time shorter, condensed segments. So basically you're coming for information, or entertainment, for the most part, in some way shape or form that you can listen to through your phone and things like that.

SAMIA: Cool, yeah, I love it. I listen to lots of podcasts myself, and there's such a wide variety of them. Like, any topic that you can think of, there's probably a podcast on that now.

CHRIS: Right, yeah, no, probably for sure.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: There are so many… I don't remember the number now, but we're in... there's a lot, there's a lot out there.

SAMIA: Yes, one of my coaches who also loves podcasting, he's of the opinion that, you know, just like once upon a time something like emails or websites, were a new thing, and relatively few people had them, but now everyone pretty much has an email and everyone has a website.

CHRIS: Yeah.

SAMIA: Why did it...

CHRIS: it's huge too...

SAMIA: ..yeah.

CHRIS: ..and business especially… having those branded podcasts… it just opens up another arm to their business where they can add value to their target market, their audience, and so it's really, really growing… I mean, we have a couple clients that are decent-sized businesses, that are seeing the value of that. And so, yeah.... it's just a continuing, growing medium. And even for the individual who's just getting into it either for a hobby, or like I did, kind of, like, wanting to do a business somehow through it, there's still room. Don't let them… the numerous numbers out there stop you. Because, like, again… be like a pencil leader, there's no one else like you. And if you don't know what that means, go out, go listen to the previous episode I was in with Samia and check that out, what that means… But there's room for you, there's no one who doesn't like you. And so yeah, definitely get started today.

SAMIA: Yeah, so what are some of the ways that businesses use podcasting to provide value for their customers?

CHRIS: Yeah, a lot of it's just to bring more value, to explain and talk about topics that their target market, their audience, wants to hear, wants to learn more about. And a lot of them tie into what that business is about. So for example, if it's like… you have a mindset coach and their product is coaching services or online programs, their podcast is probably going to be about mindset in some shape of form. So it's just basically kind of the icing on the cake. You have the coaching, you have the programs, and here's, you know, some free icing and a free cherry to put on top of everything… just more free value to give, so people are, like, able to still learn from you, and they get… So it's like a twofold... And I get… Please stop me if I get talking too fast or anything, but… People get to learn about you as a business brand or person through the podcast, especially if you do video, because then they can see your face. So they're building that trust just from listening. They're like, "oh yeah, you know, Samia has great podcast, she has great topics, she has great insight on these things, like, I really like her, I like how she does that, I resonate with her, I would want to take her course… maybe I'll check it out". And eventually, when you have calls to action in there, they're, “oh yeah, you know I will check that out”. And then they get an email stuff, and then it… And so it's a huge piece of just building that trust factor, building that expertise level, and getting in front of a lot of people faster than you could, you know, the old ways. And that's why, again, we help so many get on “podcast tours”, is what we call it. So we help them get on other people's podcasts so they can get in front of audiences that are already created, that connect to who their audience is… In one episode, depending on the show, you can get in front of 100 people.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: And if they like you, you've got new people checking out what you're doing. So, there's so much value to it.

SAMIA: Yeah, so earlier you had mentioned that generally speaking podcasts are audio only, but right now you mentioned it can also include video. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah, so basically, I always recommend, highly recommend to our clients, if you're not doing a video recorded show, you need to start. Because video marketing is so much greater than just an audio form. When you can put your face out there and people can see and hear you, again that trust factor is built so much faster. And so we have them record the episodes, and the video is taken and edited by our team, and they put it on YouTube most likely. And then we create micro content for them, so then they can go and market themselves, their show, and their guests. And so you can... I mean, you can break the episode down into multiple micro content, so on top of that you're getting a bunch of content to put out in one episode as well.

SAMIA: Right, that's cool. I love it. Yeah, that's why I love doing both audio and video, and releasing both audio and video whenever we do these interviews. It's really cool. So what else can you tell us about podcasting that will help people make it more fun and easy to join podcasting?

CHRIS: I think the big thing is, just don't overthink it. There's so much information out there… that can get overwhelming. And you don't have to have, you know, the fancy mics or, you know, anything crazy. I started with my webcam from my computer and a 50 dollar microphone, that's it. I was wearing kid headphones when I started. They literally said “youth” on them, that my wife had got me as a gag gift one year. And so it's... and I was doing it in my front room with, like, all this stuff cluttered around me. I didn't have this setup like I have now, and things like that. So you just gotta get started, you can start with your cell phone. You can start with your cell phone, you don't have to have anything crazy. The investment is nothing to very minimal per month for your hosting site. There are free ones. If you can afford a little bit per month, I would highly recommend it, but there's not a whole lot of overhead, so don't let that scare you.

SAMIA: Why do you say if you can afford to get in one of the paid ones… why do that if there are free ones available?

CHRIS: Yeah, so I mean the free ones are okay, but you… I mean, sometimes you get what you pay for, or don't pay for. Like my 60 dollar mic, I was like, “oh this thing is amazing, it sounds great”. I got compliments on it. Great. And then I invested a little bit more down the road into this one which is a lot more than that $60 microphone, and the quality was better. I just didn't realize it until I did the research and actually invested… And it's the same thing with that… the same thing with products, services, coaching... I mean, sometimes you have to be careful because there's some that you pay for and you don't get what you pay for. Unfortunately there's those out there. But the majority of the time you get what you pay for. So you're going to get, you're going to get better metric tracking, you're going to get better support, you're going to get better ease of use, it's going to be easier to use. It should just be simpler, it's going to have a better infrastructure, a better interface, I should say. And so the perks… it's there. The long-term housing… things like that, just make it a better route if you can do it. If not, the free ones still get the job done.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: And it's better than not starting at all.

SAMIA: Right. And like you said, you know, you can start with what you got. Just start -- that's the most important thing. And then you can upgrade your way to more sophisticated systems and so forth over time.

CHRIS: Yep, I would... If you're worried about that, you want to get the best quality you can for what you can do. And if that's your phone then do it, because the more important thing is the content you put out for the audience you're trying to help. And you've got to be specific on the audience that you're trying to help because you're gonna be able to figure out their problems and speak to those, which is the start of a business. And so being able to understand that, like, who am I speaking to, who am I trying to help, and what problems am I solving for them… then you can have episodes and things like that come out.

SAMIA: Yeah, so that's another thing. Like, make sure you get really specific about the audience and therefore the problem and solution that you are going to be helping people with. And I think in general that's a great bit of advice, no matter what kind of/bit of marketing that you need to do. Like, even when I was writing my first book, it was the same thing. It was like, you gotta have a specific topic.

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah...

SAMIA: Same thing podcast, gotta have specific something.

CHRIS: Absolutely. And it changes… so going kind of the business aspect of it… it changes what you can charge for that. So if you're, if you're just helping people with time management, you know, that's probably gonna be a really, really low ticket offer. Because, you know, helping people with time management -- who's people? So if you then, you narrow down, you know, maybe it's, you know, help moms with time management. Okay, now you shrunk it a little bit, so you got more people interested. But still not going to be a big kind of seller because, you know, there's a lot of time management programs from moms. So okay, well, maybe it's moms with toddlers, single moms with toddlers, how to have better time management. Okay, now you're getting a little bit closer to that super specific niche. And then you can even go from there. People might have... there might be people who don't agree with me, but maybe you do… you know southern moms in the United States… that's Texas, you know, southern areas… Southern single moms with toddlers who are trying to figure it out and get better time management. So you've just become super specific...

SAMIA: Yeah…

CHRIS: ..and you could even... I mean, honestly, you could go farther than that if you really wanted. You could, you know… single southern Christian mothers with two toddlers"... you just again found a group, and probably… “Well, you know, won't that box me in? And won't that corner me into that market?” What do you mean? ... excuse me... You get really good at helping them, there are a lot of people within that that group out there, there's probably millions in that group, more than you think. If not, maybe thousands… But can you really, could you serve a thousand? So why are you worried about not having… like, there's not enough people? There are plenty of people. Because if you got a thousand people from that group tomorrow, you're not ready for them, probably. So... but when you do that, you know exactly how those moms, those southern Christian single toddler moms, talk… because you're going to do the research, you're going to understand their pain points to the "T" and you're going to be able to market directly to those women. And they're going to be like, "oh my gosh, that is me, they're talking to me, not time management for moms”. You know… I mean, I'm trying to get more time management… but the more specific program, that's gonna... they're gonna go to that every day, every time. And so the cost will go up on that because it's super, super, highly specific.

SAMIA: Yeah... yeah, that makes sense. And any other tips that you have for making it more fun and easy to podcast?

CHRIS: Yeah, I think that's a big thing… if you can just have an idea of who you want to help and just connect with them. You know, have fun, have conversations… you know, enjoy it… That's why I love it. I love having conversations with different people, new people… getting their perspective, because I learn something every time I talk to somebody. It's like, “oh wow, okay. Or that's a great point, or you made me think about this”… And so then you can share, like, “hey, you know I was talking to this person the other day and they told me this, and I never thought of it, but it makes so much…”. And then you have an episode and then you enjoy it and then you're excited to then make them because it's not a burden and like, “oh, I have to go record this and edit it”. It's like, “holy cow! this is going to be an amazing episode! Like, I learned so much, and I get to put it out there! I got to make it the best I can through editing. Now I get to put it out there for someone else, even just one person, if it makes an impact on, it's going to make a difference!” Like... so you've got to come from that perspective and just enjoy it. Enjoy the process, because there's so much, so much amazing things there that we can learn in that process.

And then to make it easier, just set up some systems, some, some processes. If it's just you… just, you know, schedule it and, like, hey, on this day for an hour I'm gonna do some research on topics. So it doesn't get way crazy. And then on this day I'm going to edit. And on this day I'll just record… Things like that just make it simpler, and just stick to it. That way it's not all over the place and, you know, you don't over schedule… things like that… But simplifying that process, like, for example, I interview people on Pencil Leadership, and our process is… thankfully now we have people continuously reaching out, “hey, can I be on the show?”... things of that nature. And it's such a blessing to have that. We just say, “hey, thanks so much for reaching out. We really, really appreciate that. Here's our guest intake form link. If you could fill this out for us, that'd be great, and then we'll get back to you once we review all the information”. So that's an email template, we plug and chug, we plug and change information as needed, and send that out right away. We review that information that we get periodically once we have quite a few in there, and then we'll send another pre-made email that says, either, “hey, reviewed your information, you're a great fit for the show. We look forward to having you on. Here's our link to schedule your spot to record”. And they go and do that, and then we have all… we have like five notification emails scheduled out, a review email, a review survey, all already created and ready to go.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: We don't have to do much except show up and record.

SAMIA: Yes, so being able to automate the different aspects of the work… and of course, again, it will take a little bit of time to set up these systems…

CHRIS: For sure.

SAMIA: …in a way that's optimal, and you've worked out all the kinks, and so forth. But I love it, I love the idea of using systems to make things more fun and easy. And doing this… like, don't, don't get into podcasting if it's not something that you're going to enjoy.

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah and it... if it is, just kind of suck it up for a while until you're at the point where maybe then you can invest and have someone come host the show for you if that's not your thing. Maybe you like to be in the background of the business… get to that point… it's still possible.

SAMIA: Right.

CHRIS: And have someone else be the face of the show, there's nothing wrong with that. There's lots of avenues you can do. But sometimes we want it to be fun and easy, but sometimes it won't be. And that's the reality of it. And/but we have to... in those times, remember why, remember the joy that we've had, remember the good things that are coming from it, the benefits people are getting in those kind of lows. Because there are days, you know, that I'm like, “oh, today I'm recording all these episodes…” And I'd snap out of it.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: Like no, like, I'm gonna learn something from these people that I probably never heard. I get to meet these amazing people that are doing great things, and then I get to share it… So I'm like, why am I down? This is such a blessing, like, people wish they could do this! And so it's just a change of mindset.

SAMIA: Right, I agree with you. And our feelings of happiness, our feelings of fun and ease, they're really a mindset thing, for sure. And if you are feeling down, you know, as a happiness expert I will say, there is a reason for that. So maybe not immediately in the moment when you have to get the work done, but maybe before or after, take some time and look deeper within, and be like, hey, why did this feeling come up? What feedback is it trying to give me? And maybe there is something you need to shift or change or adjust so that you can, you know, once you make that change or adjustment after listening to your feeling’s feedback, then you'll be able to come back to do this work with even more joy and...

CHRIS: Yeah.

SAMIA: ..more enjoyment, and take it to the next level in terms of how much success you're able to achieve with it.

CHRIS: Absolutely, and what you said right there is spot on. Like, realizing you have this emotion, whatever it is, and saying, okay, like I'm angry, or I'm not feeling like recording, or I'm sad… whatever it is, it's real. Like just… like, my issue in the past was, oh no, I can't have feelings. Like, I've got to be happy, I've got to be nice, I've got to be kind, you know, I've got to be… And so I would just push everything down, and that's led to a lot of issues. So now it's like, no, you know, I'm pissed off, I'm not happy, like… or like… this is just… I'm just not feeling it. Like, okay. So like you said, why?

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: ..what's causing me? Do I have control of it? No. Okay, well it's done. I don't have control over… Or, oh, I do have control of that. So let's… what would I need to tweak? What do I need to change to get out of that? It's over. So what you said was spot on for sure.

SAMIA: Awesome. I think one of the last questions I want to ask you is… can you give us an idea of what are some of the main ways people actually make money through podcasting?

CHRIS: Yeah. So, and again, this is my opinion and there are probably people who don't agree, but sponsorships is not going to be your way to monetize your podcast. So don't waste your time, excuse me, don't waste your time trying to find sponsorships when you've just started. I don't care how niched your podcast is, you've got to have results, you've got to show that people like it, that people like you, that people like the content, how you're doing it… Because at first you might have to tweak things to get to that point. Just so many people I see wasting their energy and time, which again goes back to why it's not fun. It's like, “well, I thought I was gonna, you know, get sponsorships right out of the gates”. Don't focus on that. Let those come to you when they realize, “hey, I want to be a part of this”. Because then you're like, “hey when, you know, they're asking me, I can charge a little bit more”. So don't focus on sponsorships. Focus on putting out really good content and then seeing what your audience asks for. Because when they start asking, that's when you can really start monetizing, whether that be through a paywall or having a tiered paid system, like a patreon, or there's multiple things now that does that, a community type aspect… or a program or course or a service, whatever it is. And that's how... so I've Pencil Leadership, but the DBA under is Elevate Media, that's how Elevate Media started… producing podcast shows, finding guests, doing all that for people. So listen… that's a big one. Listen to what your audience wants.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: Maybe they, maybe they don't want a bunch of ads in the shows, so sponsorships will be bad anyways. Maybe they want a community, so you can invite people in at a low… And people are like, “Well it's only 20 bucks, it's not worth it”. Well, it's a long-term game. Business is a long game. Podcasting is… it's a marathon not a sprint. And so see what they want, listen to them, listen to the people, and then start implementing it and testing. And then you'll be able to sell. If you can do that, if you can decrease the time of, like… this is what I think I should do, I'm going to create it… and then no one buys it… It's like, oh, back to the drawing board. Let's just do really good content. What we think is… get feedback really quick...

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: ..tweak it, listen… “oh, they want… There are a lot of people asking me about this within happiness… they're asking me all this stuff about happiness, these main things are coming up… so maybe if I put together a five video course I could start selling that…”

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: ..and then, and then the podcast starts covering itself, and then you start making more than what the podcast costs, and then you start… So it can... it all is, all based on answering a question and taking care of a pain your audience has.

SAMIA: Yeah, and I'm so glad you mentioned testing, because whether it's podcasting or even so many other aspects of anything that you want to market and get out there, testing is such a key component. Because you come up with an idea that you think is awesome, but you don't really know...

CHRIS: No one else thinks it's awesome, so it's like...

SAMIA: Exactly, so… and sometimes what you have really is awesome, but the way that you are talking about it, the way you're marketing it, so to speak, maybe that's not working. And so you have to, have to be willing to go through a testing process to see… is it the content, or is it my marketing of the content, or maybe it’s both? You won’t… You won't know until you do some testing.

CHRIS: Absolutely. Yeah. And getting into those places where your people are listening or interacting, and seeing what they're asking about, seeing what they're saying, complaining… And then just reaching out to them like, "hey, I know you listen to the show. I really appreciate that. We're thinking about putting this thing together, here's… can I send, can I... are you okay with me sending you the information? I would love your feedback. I'm not selling anything, I just want your feedback since you've been around listening to the show. Is this something you would even like? You, as like this person, because this is who I'm trying to help… would you even like this? I really appreciate the help”.

And they come back, you know, yeah, but, you know, this didn't really stick out to me… the title was kind of you know… their feedback… Like, hey, thank you so much! And then remember that. And I would, you know, if it was me, depending on how many you test that on, I'd come back and be like, “hey listen, I'd love you to just go through it for free, or like, you know, super, super cheap for your help”.

They didn't ask for it, you didn't tell them you were gonna do that. And it's like, “oh wow, okay, awesome”… They're gonna be more invested, they're gonna give you better reviews/feedback of that. And you're gonna be able to make it better, and then you're gonna have the social proof. So and… that's another thing, you don't have to have it created before you test this. If you have a really good idea of something you think, and you have people following you who are like, who are there… then say, “hey listen, I'm creating this thing, this happiness course, that's going to do this, this, and this for you. Who's interested? Or who wants to know when it's done?” If you get one person to say yes, and you usually have more, then it's probably off somewhere...

SAMIA: Yeah. That’s right.

CHRIS: …So okay, go back to drawing board for, you know… take a week or two, do it again. What are the changes?...

SAMIA: Yes.

CHRIS: ..Do that. And in the meantime, reach out to people, “hey, I posted this, no one really commented… What stood out? What didn't really resonate with you? I'm just trying to gain feedback so I make the best thing for my audience”.

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRIS: People are going to be more, they're going to be more receptive to that than someone coming in their DM’s and saying, “hey, I have this thing. You want to buy it?” I’m like, “I don't know”. So that's just another thought.

SAMIA: Yeah, no, that's brilliant. And actually, thank you for mentioning that. And you know, this feedback process, this testing process, I think that's one of the biggest keys that most people are missing because of which, you know, their whole process of marketing and sales becomes really challenging. And they don't even know why, and they can't figure out the solution to the problem. So actually, I started a Facebook group…

CHRIS: There you go.

SAMIA: …to solve that problem. And it's called “Your Marketing Puzzle Solved!”

So if you're having a problem, you need a safe space where you can, you know, have, you know, feedback, and get people to give you this kind of feedback that you need, join my Facebook group -- Your Marketing Puzzle Solved, right.

CHRIS: That's awesome, yeah, that's a great start.

SAMIA: Yeah, and that… there are other groups too that provide other kinds of support, but I find there are very few spaces that allow this kind of… give and giving back and forth of honest feedback, and where you feel safe doing it, you know. Because so many people are also, like, afraid that, “oh if I share my idea, someone will steal it”.

CHRIS: Oh right, yeah, that scarcity mindset kicks in, yep.

SAMIA: Yeah, so anyway, thank you so much for being with us again Chris. I really appreciated everything that you had to share. And for our listeners, if you have a podcast, you want to monetize it, you can hear, you can see, that Chris is awesome, Chris is amazing. He'll be able to help you with this. So please connect with him. We will include your links, Chris, in the show notes. And people, do get in touch with Chris.

And hey if you just want some help on your mindset, on becoming more happy and all that good stuff, get in touch with me. Join my Facebook group if you want some feedback on your marketing, so you can go through that testing process more effectively. And I'll include that link in the show notes too. And yeah, until we connect next time, I wish you lots of peace and joy. :)