SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet!It's really good to be with you again and you know we have a very special guest today that I'm very excited to have… and I know we will be having a fabulous conversation... And it'll be super, super interesting and exciting. Because guess what, we're doing this as a podcast… well, you might be watching the video version of it... But this is also by the way, being done for our podcast... And we have our guest, who is Christine McAlister. And she is a Podcast Guest Expert... So we are going to be talking about podcasting... That's so cool. Welcome, Christine.

CHRISTINE: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me...

SAMIA: Yay! You're so so welcome... And I will have you just jump right in and tell us more about who you are and what you do.

CHRISTINE: Hmm, yeah... So I have kind of combined the last two decades that I've spent in media and my passion and love for coaching and teaching and marketing... to become somebody who helps people really authentically and powerfully show up as a guest on other people's podcasts and use that to form relationships and network and also attract the right clients from it.

SAMIA: Nice, nice... you know, most of the people who will be listening or watching this will be familiar with podcasts. But just in case, there is someone who's watching let's say… and is not so familiar with podcasting yet... what is a podcast, technically.

CHRISTINE: Yeah, so I guess the best way to describe it is like a long-form recording that you can access anywhere that you have internet, right. So it's like a long radio conversation...but in-depth, but then applied to the internet. Now, that's most podcasts and that's probably not a great definition... But there are a lot of podcasts that follow different formats because there are now 3 million podcasts... So there are audio... audio interviews, or productions or solo conversations that you can access via the internet. 

SAMIA: That is so cool. And I know like podcasting has really been growing in an amazing way. I remember when I first started podcasting, it was back in... my gosh, I don't even remember, maybe like 2016 or 2017... And just in that period of time I've seen like a huge explosion in the number of shows and just the variety of podcasts... And like you said, even the formats… like when podcasts first started, they were pretty much all audio... but now we have video podcasts mixed in and stuff... So I mean, I guess… any insight on why podcasting is exploding so much... like, what's so awesome about it?

CHRISTINE: Well, I think there's a really low barrier to entry... It can be… it's pretty inexpensive to produce your own show... if you have internet access. And also, I think that especially over the last couple of years with so many of us in lockdown… really provided a way of connecting... And so there's been almost a 50% increase just in less than a year in the number of podcasts from almost two to almost 3 million, like in less than a year. So, you know, it's becoming a massive legitimate business... It's at least a billion-dollar industry now...

SAMIA: Yeah...

CHRISTINE: ...and right growing very rapidly. And I think it's, you know, it's because it's very accessible for the listener and it's very easy for a host to create and share their message with the world. 

SAMIA: Yeah, you know I... that's the part that I love the most as a podcaster… because like when I was thinking about, well, what kind of a platform do I want to sort of really make my own in terms of how... like you know, I wanted to basically engage in what I call education based marketing. So you know, to have some kind of platform where I can put out educational content on a regular basis and be able to point to that when someone wants to get to know me better and get to, you know... yeah, just learn more about who I am, what I do, what I can offer, how I can help... stuff like that... And so I was like looking at the different options. And the first thought was YouTube but I was like you know between YouTube and podcasting... I was like, "Oh, I don't have to be on video on podcast. I think I'll go for that."And I was not so much like… I was just more concerned about the video aspect because I was like then I have to think about how I'm looking... And I have to think about my background. And I just wasn't very, you know, confident that I can manage all of that...

CHRISTINE: Yeah. For sure it's a whole another layer... yeah. 

SAMIA: Right. And so I was like, you know, audio only sounds like it'll make things simpler… and I once I actually got into it... I actually signed up with a coach to teach me about podcasting. And thankfully, he made it super simple... And there were already existing several platforms where you know you could sign up to start your podcast and the platform would host it for you... And they were already like, making it pretty easy... And now, it's even easier. 

CHRISTINE: Yeah, so good.

SAMIA: Yeah. And so, so you specialize in helping people be guests on other people's podcast... What's that all about? Why is that important?

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CHRISTINE: Yeah, so in my experience, it's much easier to be a guest on other people's shows and really show up in a way that helps create one of the best episodes that they've ever had... then it is to start your own podcast... I have my own podcast, too. But I went on over 100 other people's podcasts before I started my own… because I realized that it was like starting a whole other business… to create this thing from the ground up starting with zero, right. So I love to interview and I love to be interviewed, both... And I just believe it is a really good way not only to get your message out there but also to... if you want to have your own podcast, to learn from other people who are already doing it. And if you... if you already have your own podcast, it is the number one way to grow your podcast. So regardless of whether or not you have a podcast, you should be podcast guesting in my opinion... if you like having real conversations with people... And if you're going to do guesting anyway, why not just start with just guesting before you add that whole other layer of complexity of having your own show...

SAMIA: That's very interesting... That's very interesting. I ended up doing things opposite... my first podcast that I started... the one we're doing right now it's my second show. The first one that I started... I had never done guesting at all. I just jumped right in to start my own... And with that one I didn't do any interviews. I was just talking and sharing what I had to share myself. And like that was something that my coach had guided me to do at that point in time as the fastest way to just get going and that made sense... And then when I started this current show "Make Change Fun and Easy”... what I found and... I did it, and I did when I starting this show I had an intention of inviting other guests to come on this show... I actually found it really helpful to have had the experience already of having done my first show. And you know, even in terms of inviting guests I was, you know, able to say, "Hey, you know, so I have already done this one show and build up a followership and a subscriber list based on that... and so, I mean, I don't know, it just made me feel like it gave me a little bit more credibility that way... But that's interesting... so what… when you didn't have your own show and you were podcast guesting on other people's shows... How are you leveraging... Or like what was the strategy that you were going in with, in terms of using that as a strategy to help you grow your business?

CHRISTINE: Mm-hmm... So certainly, like connections, right, with the hosts, and then also going on podcast where I felt like my people might be hanging out, right... in one way or another… and then having a way to move them off of the episode by giving them something that they wanted and needed... And just talking really openly about who I was and who I wasn't, right. So it's very, very clear… like people could self identify, really, right... whether I was for them or not. 

SAMIA: Yeah. Okay, so go on other people's shows it's a great way to raise awareness about who you are and what you do... make sure you have some kind of something that you're offering to your listeners so that they can connect with you outside of that. Did you encounter any obstacles as you were going through this process of podcast guesting...

CHRISTINE: Yeah... it… to be honest with you, it's very time-consuming to do it right... And now that I have like a kind of an internal agency that does this, we know hours and hours are spent on pitch, and plus more hours in finding shows... Plus, you don't get to choose who says yes to you, who doesn't... when podcasts get aired that you've recorded… There's so much about doing this that is out of your control and you have to make your peace with that, right... If you're a control freak, which I would say I'm a recovering control freak, then it's going to be a challenge for you, you know, because you're gonna be very attached to what you think it should look like... So I'd say that… that's really important where I see a lot of people giving up is like, they don't want to invest the time or they don't feel like they have the time to do it right... so they either don't pitch enough to start seeing results... they give up or they give up too soon, right... Or they just decide they're going to send the same pitch to everybody and they spray and pray it, and that doesn't work.

SAMIA: That is a very interesting point... That is a very interesting point that you can't just send the same pitch to everyone because with podcasts, I mean, we have a specific topic, we have a specific audience that we are catering to... So I can see how if you just send the same thing to everyone that you want… whose shows you want to be on... That'd be like, I don't think you're a great fit for me... Right.

CHRISTINE: Exactly. Yeah. Like if I was a… if I was just in this for like a cash grab, right, like, you wouldn't have invited me to be on your show. But we connected because we're both changemakers and that's who you serve, right... 

SAMIA: That's right, that's right... 

CHRISTINE: So... 

SAMIA: ...yeah, and not only are we both serving changemakers but also I wanted to make sure that we'd be a good fit in the way that we serve changemakers and the way we talk about it and so forth...

CHRISTINE: Yeah...

SAMIA: ...yeah. Okay. So there's potentially a lot of… a lot of pre-work that you have to do before you get to be podcast guesting... any tips on how to make that work easier, more fun?

CHRISTINE: Yeah. So I mean, I think for me, it's always really fun when I find a host that I genuinely feel a connection to, and like as a person… because then creating a customized pitch is really just the bridge. Like it's just communicating here, here is why this would be a lot of fun to have this conversation, right... And so when, if you like pod- if you like listening to podcasts... then it's not like you might have to find extra time to find podcasts to listen to… like, you might have ones that are your favorites already that could be potential, right... And you get to listen to an episode and learn something while you decide if it's someone that you want to send a pitch to... So I think it's more about kind of going… this gets to be fun, because I get to learn and I get to use this to find, you know, more people who are like my tribe. And then it… creating a pitch is just that simple connection between the two of you...

SAMIA: That makes a lot of sense, that makes a lot of sense... And so, to… as a way of finding appropriate shows you just sort of listen to various shows, you see what you like, and then see whether you can serve their audience and also do it in a way that's obviously a win-win for you both... Okay, that makes sense to me. Any anything else about… like, that you can share in terms of wisdom of how to be an awesome podcast guest... So when you do your pitch, like, you're more likely to be accepted?

CHRISTINE: Hmm. So I think that the frame or the mindset of the whole process...from research to pitch to there, the host is inviting you onto their stage. I think where a lot of people get it wrong is they make it very transactional. And it's like, "Hey, look at me, look at me, look at me, like, you should have me on your show because blah blah blah..." right. And it's important for someone to understand what value you're going to bring. But most people are just in it to have this conversation and never do anything ever for that person again... They're not going to share the show when it airs, they're not going to you know promote it to their people... they were only there to grab what they could out of that audience and then move on to the next thing. And some people are very conscious of this. And some people it's unconscious, it's not always malicious. But when you go in thinking about the long play of… I'm going to choose somebody that I would actually like to be friends with and this is just the first conversation that we're gonna have of many on and off of podcasts... it changes the game… because you're not just there to read your talking points and go on to the next one... You're genuinely forming a connection, a human connection, with this other human who happens have a podcast with listeners, right… And people can feel that... they can feel it in your pitch, they can feel it in your interview, they can feel it in what happens after that interview, right... And most people just again, don't invest the time or energy to actually connect and create relationship with this conversation... And so it just comes off as kind of skeezy...

SAMIA: Yeah, can you give some tips on how to create that more genuine sort of connection? Because honestly, that's something I can struggle with myself. Because I am a little bit socially challenged. I admit it... I'm not the best at, you know, like figuring out what to say or just, you know, chit-chat... I'm terrible at chit-chat by the way… it's like I need to know what I'm talking about... I need to have a topic. And so oftentimes I think I can really struggle with coming across as being too transactional in the way that I approach and deal with people... I mean that's not my intention at all... that's not where my heart is. But I struggle with my social skills a little bit in that way. So any tips on how do you... it's like… it is a professional relationship that you're developing. So how do you do that and not have it just be you know transactional feels off?

CHRISTINE: Yeah, it's such a good question… and thanks for asking that... And you know what I would say is like this… to your point, this is a very different skill set than being a host... It's a very different skill set than doing Facebook lives on your own or speaking on a virtual or a real stage or running a webinar or a training… like, it's totally different... So I think the first thing is like give yourself permission that this is a different skill… but just because you might be good at every single one of those other things doesn't mean that you're automatically going to be good at this...

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRISTINE: And how do we get good at anything... right... I mean, you know this from podcasting, right? You did your first show… you just told me you did your first show solo, you learned a lot, you got some confidence, and then you were ready to do something different where you started bringing on guests. 

SAMIA: Yeah. 

CHRISTINE: Right. And you've been doing this for several years... And so I think part of it is just going, this is gonna be a growth edge for me... And I think for you, because I know your heart… like, it's asking how… if… how would I treat this person if I wanted to make them my friend, right... How would I treat this person if I wanted to make them my friend? What would I do if I just had a great connection call with somebody or came across somebody on social media or something and I was like… man, I really want to follow them, or wow, I really look up to them… and like, you know… I would love to have them in my world, right. And then just do that... And that's gonna be different for everyone but that really simplifies it, right. Because you can look at how do you take care of your the people in your life, your friends, your clients, whoever, right... 

SAMIA: That makes a lot of sense Christine, thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm thinking like maybe talking about tips or being a great guest... So as you had highlighted for us earlier there is the before process before you actually get to be at someone's show and get to be a guest... So we talked a little bit about how to be great guests in that context… build up genuine relationships and make sure it's not all transactional when you approach the person and so forth... What about being a great guest when you're on the show? Any tips on what you can do when you're on the show...

CHRISTINE: Yeah... I think my biggest tip is treat it like a conversation... instead of like you are being grilled, you know… so many people are so scared to be interviewed like, "Oh, what if they asked me a question that I don't have the answer to?" Well, what if they do? You don't have to have an answer... You could say, "I don't really know, that's not my area of expertise." Right? You could sit there for a minute and think about it and see if anything comes to you, right. So I think a lot of it is, yeah, going in to create that connection through conversation... And when you do that, it's different than the way that most people show up as a guest... People are going to feel it. The host is going to feel it and respond differently, which means that the audience will feel it and respond differently. 

SAMIA: Yeah, that makes sense. So like, basically work on your own confidence, work on just feeling more comfortable yourself so that you can go into being that guest on that show with that energy... That makes a lot of sense. Cool... Have you ever experienced… I mean now that you are both, on both sides of the equation... you have been an awesome guest on many shows and you're a host and you invite people on your shows... Do you see any like challenges that... main challenges that people run into in terms of being an awesome guest when they're on the show...

CHRISTINE: Yeah, so we talked about it a little bit right… like going in with these talking points you feel like you need to shove across the thing… and what if we don't get to this thing, then I want to make sure like… One of I think the worst things that you… that people can say... and I have… people have told me this and have been proud of it... Is like no matter what they ask me I always find a way to talk about the same things. Like, people are gonna feel that, it's gonna sound like you're reading a script... this is not a speech, it's just not. And frankly if someone connects with to you on a podcast, they hear you on a podcast, they might search for other podcasts that you've been on… and if they go to the second one and it sounds exactly the same as the first one, they're done... 

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah...

CHRISTINE: Right...

SAMIA: Yeah… and I mean that's a very valid point because I know one of the things that I do is when I get to be a guest on someone's show... is that I love to promote it among my people …and if every time I promote an episode that I've been on someone else's show, and if I'm saying the same things like why would I bother promoting it...

CHRISTINE: Yeah, exactly... so it's… it's just thinking about those even those couple things makes a really big difference...

SAMIA: Yeah, you know I do… I guess... I'm trying to have a little bit of empathy for the people who have this attitude of just being like, you know, I talk about the same thing or talk about whatever I want regardless of what I'm asked... it reminds me of... I'm part of this organization, it's a survivor speaker bureau... It's a speaker's bureau for survivors of sexual assault, sexual abuse... I'm a survivor sexual abuse myself and so I'm part of the speakers bureau... I remember they were taking us through a media training… and this was actually something that they were teaching us in that context that you have to be very very careful anytime you're being interviewed on any kind of media because whoever is interviewing you has an agenda and they can like… unfortunately, when it comes to the issue of sexual assault, sexual abuse, there are certain taboos and there are certain comfortability levels in terms of what people are willing to hear... and what they're not willing to hear... And you know a lot of times, you know, for example, if you're telling a sob story that aligns with their preconceived notions and the myths that people have in their minds about who a victim is, what a victim is like, etc... then they're happy to broadcast you confirming that. But if you say something different, if you do some myth-busting that they don't approve of... then you know, you're likely to get edited in some way that either like… it just doesn't get aired or it's manipulated in a way where what you said, doesn't... you know, the meaning of it changes. And this was like a huge concern that they were like warning us about… especially for like tv related media interviews... But as I'm thinking about podcasting and being on podcasts... I'm like that may be something you have to be aware of but that you could probably filter out in your research on whose shows you're going to and stuff… most... I mean why would you want to go on a show where you might be subjected to something like that, you know… And so I would just filter that out beforehand... and so then I don't have to have that as a concern and I can just go in and focus on being my authentic self and share my authentic message...

CHRISTINE: Yep, yeah that's I love that... that's so well said. 

SAMIA: Yeah... all right… so cool, cool... all right so we have now got some awesome tips from you for how to be a great podcasting guest before you go on a podcast… some good ideas for when you're on a show… any tips for how to be a great podcast guest after you've done the show?

CHRISTINE: …you actually already said it... so you get the credit here… but it's… share it… share it with your people… like hosts get genuinely sad… because by this point they have put hours in either sweat equity into editing it and making the graphics and all of the things that go along with uploading it, etc... and/or dollars, like real dollars...

SAMIA: Yeah. 

CHRISTINE: Maybe 100 or more dollars into creating this thing that is marketing you, right. And so when they put… and they also are spinning their social capital… right… by saying like you should listen to this person they're worth listening to...

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRISTINE: And then when you... when they go to the trouble of saying like here's some graphics or here's the link I'd love for you to share it, and you don't... they know, they notice. That relationship is not gonna move further, most likely. And so again, it comes back to the transactional, not transactional… if you want to be the kind of guest that gets asked we call it “guest for life”... that gets asked back, that becomes friends with that person, that becomes a like someone who gets referrals from that person, who becomes you know introduced to their podcasting friends… like, think about what they want… what is in it for them that you can give them... what do they care about? They care about looking good to their audience and they care about growing their show...

SAMIA: Yeah.

CHRISTINE: Right, so they want... and when I say looking good I mean like continuing to build trust...

SAMIA: Right.

CHRISTINE: Right… so that they can serve them. And also growing this show that they've put so much into so that they can help more people, reach more people with their message. So very, very simple, you know, I think that's my number one tip for after the interview is to share it and tag them everywhere that you're active.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah and I know like for me, I have a huge variety of guests… by variety I mean actually that might not be the best word… but what I mean is that they're in different places in their business growth journey… in the sense that some of them are newbies and so they don't have very many maybe established followers and so forth... but I still really appreciate them spreading the word to whatever extent that they can, you know… And in fact like I appreciate the effort of the people who are still, you know, relatively newbies more because you know for the people who already have like a following and they have systems set up to just you know do their marketing and stuff like that... it's like okay… like in my case I'll hand over I'll be like, oh I interviewed on this show… here my virtual assistant goes to the link on all my social media… and we have like a process set up and it's like for me personally, very little effort now… it's my VA doing most of the work… but for someone who's like… doesn't have a VA to do that for them or whatever… they're like actually going to be spending time and effort to you know post it, maybe send it out in emails or whatever because they might not have as much of a social media presence… or whatever... And so, it's actually in some ways more effort that they're putting in… and I really appreciate that...

CHRISTINE: Yeah, but I love that… that's really beautiful, yeah...

SAMIA: Yeah, cool... oh, it's been so much fun chatting with you Christine… and I'm like, oh wish we could keep going for way longer but we have to start wrapping up for today... Do you have any last shares that you would love to communicate right now...

CHRISTINE: I think really just to inspire you of what's possible, I mean… this is the best way to attract clients with just one touch of any of the platforms that you can have, right… I don't even know what the number is on social 12 maybe, time someone has to see something before they remember it... This is the complete opposite of that… and I know everybody has to do their work on their mindset around who would want to listen to me, what… I what do I have to say, what if I sound stupid... Like the biggest thing is to just be willing to experiment with it… this is such a powerful tool for attracting clients, for creating real genuine connections, for not having to live your life on social media and still getting to grow your business... And so you know it's worth playing with… and I hope that inspires you...

SAMIA: Oh thank you for that Christine... you just, every time you share something it makes me think of more questions that I want to ask you... So I actually I did just think of one more follow-up question and then maybe we’ll wrap up... unless you say something again extremely brilliant... but the thought that…  question that popped in my mind right now was… you just mentioned that in other kinds of formats it takes way more touches, way more times that someone has to be exposed to you before, you know, you... they'll basically be willing to take the next step with you, whatever that is... but that's different with podcasting... Why is that?

CHRISTINE: Good question... so I want… I would love to know for you and for everybody listening like the thinking about your answer, what else are you doing when you're listening to podcasts?

SAMIA: Well, a lot of times I'm driving… and that's it...

CHRISTINE: So this is maybe the only activity within online medium... this is the only online medium where it's legal to be driving and doing that.

SAMIA: That's true.

CHRISTINE: Right… and when you're driving, at least for those of us who've been driving for longer than we haven't been driving...we're in we're, or we're commuting or whatever the thing is familiar routes, highway drives like we're in a flow state... we're open and we want to learn something. We want to pass the time, yes, we want to learn something while doing these automatic behaviors, right. Completely different intention than how most people use social media and the level of distraction and the shortness of attention span that exists on social media, right.

SAMIA: Yes.

CHRISTINE: You're not competing against, you know, casino-like notifications popping up bing bang boom trying to get you to recheck for the dopamine hit, right. You're not competing against ads, you're not competing against someone's more brightly colored picture or sexier hook or whatever the thing is... like you're not. People are there listening because they are loyal listeners of that host.

SAMIA: Right.

CHRISTINE: And the host… like you are transferring the know like and trust that you've worked so hard to build with your audience to me by having me on... And so your audience can sit up and pay more attention than they would to some other random stranger on the internet that they just saw an ad for or post of, right...

SAMIA: Yes.

CHRISTINE: So those are the reasons… and also the length of time... 30 minutes, an hour compared to mate a sec a second, a second and a half if they're gonna stop the scroll or not...

SAMIA: Yeah…

CHRISTINE: ...there's just no comparison.

SAMIA: That's so true, that's a true... it's like interesting that is so true, because pre COVID I must admit I used to drive a lot more… like I was driving on average two, two and a half hours a day... I live in Los Angeles lots of traffic...

CHRISTINE: ..like a mile...

SAMIA: Yeah, and so even if the podcast was like an hour-long, I would still be listening... And oftentimes if it got cut shot, when I started driving again, I'd go back to that episode finish listening. Nowadays I'm driving much less and I'm enjoying that… but now it's like I do more like 15, 20, 30-minute chunks of driving... so I think that sort of influenced me a little bit in terms of the episodes that I do now with my guests... I try to keep them around 30 minutes… sometimes we go over because you're so brilliant... but I try to keep it around 30 minutes because I've been biased by my own experience in the last couple of years where I'm like… 30 minutes around that time I usually stop driving… and so I'm like you know… and then I actually have noticed in the stats that the amount of listens tend to go down significantly after 30 minutes… so I'm like, okay we'll keep it to around 30 minutes...

CHRISTINE: Yeah... for sure yeah.

SAMIA: Cool... okay so talking about the wisdom of keeping close to about the 30-minute mark for the episode... we'll go ahead and wrap up now. And I just want to thank you again so much Christine for coming on and sharing your wisdom, and you're such an excellent guest you're welcome to come back on my show anytime...

CHRISTINE: Oh... thank you… I'm so grateful... thank you for having me, I really appreciate the opportunity to come and have this conversation.

SAMIA: Yeah, me too... and for all of you who are listening… please make sure you check our show notes because we will be adding Christine's links in there, so you can connect with her if you're at all interested in the strategy of using podcast guesting as a way to grow your business... I think it's fabulous... So do check out the links in the show notes... and until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy… :)