SAMIA: Yes, I love it, I just absolutely love it. Can you tell me a little bit... because like with physical fitness we all have a much better awareness of the different aspects of physical fitness and, you know, what that involves, how to measure it, and so forth. And so if I wanted to improve my physical fitness, I'd have a better idea of how to go about doing it. But what about mental fitness? How can you measure mental fitness for example?

SAMIA: Yeah.

DANI: And there are may mean in our everyday life when we are working and we feel like there is a co-worker who is not that… just so fast as we expect to, it's something that we get stressed and at the end of the day we have our... in our essence, something that's not so pleasant to our co-worker, or something like that. It's about getting used to get out or step out that survival mode, that is… it’s a pattern, it's something that we haven't already learned -- that we are here to thrive, we don't need to survive anymore, you know. Because those behaviors that I have just told you about being in a survival mode, they come from the fact that we have to defend ourselves, they come from the origin… is about our survival instinct. Because when we were in the jungle we have to really be stressed and hyper achiever. If we saw something that... it's not that close, but something that just has a danger, yes, they are... the woods or just can be a threat, or something like that… we had to run, because if we don't do that we are going to die. We are being attacked! So we used to be very hyper, just achiever… awakened in an excessive way, because we used to get stressed on a regular basis because that's what's necessary… but that's not the case anymore, that's the point.

SAMIA: Right, and even in cases where, you know, people are in today's world living in challenging circumstances, the fact of the matter is that the nature of those challenges is very different than 10,000 years ago and you were living in a jungle, or something like that. The nature of the challenges is very different. And so they need to be dealt with differently. Like, you can run away from a threat like a wild animal that's about to attack you. And that's a great response to save yourself from that actual wild animal, if you're faced with it. But when you have a threat that's not so physical, if it's the threat of, you know, like somebody mentally and emotionally bullying you for example… running away physically from them might help you to avoid the situation in the short term, but it probably won't solve your problem in the long term. And so then you have to think about, "okay, in this situation, in this circumstance, what can I do to not just survive but thrive?"... like you were saying. Because to run away from that bully, you know, it's a quick fix that will allow you to survive in the moment, which is important in its way. But as a long-term strategy it's not very effective. So I love the point that you just made about, yeah, we can stop thinking so much about surviving and think more about thriving. I love it.

DANI: Yes, yes. And a super important aspect about the whole mental fitness concept, Samia, it's about exercising the positive emotions…

SAMIA: Yes.

DANI: …not only avoiding the negative ones. Because science has already proven that our... how can I put that… when we have to go through a competition, when we have to deliver a speech, if we have peace of mind, if we are emotionally balanced, we will do well. And that's the way that positive emotions… they have that effect on us. Because people sometimes fail, say. And my clients, they tell me that... they'll tell me all the time, "yes that negative emotions go and lead me towards success, and it's amazing to give me that extra boost". And my answer is, "maybe, maybe, maybe so, but what's the way that you're gonna get there?” If you get... let me put that away, if you get there...

SAMIA: Yeah.

DANI: ...you are getting there in a pretty bad situation and stressful situation. It's super detrimental to do that to yourself because you have the illusion that you are being pushed towards success. And yes you are being pushed, but being pushed it's not something pleasant. You know, it's so much better if you go towards success just by yourself, with just your willingness and towards your purpose. It's not necessary to be pushed, you know, and that's the point. Although the negative emotions have the potential to lead you towards success, only the positive emotions, they have that power to give ourselves that true happiness.

SAMIA: Yeah. <

DANI: You know…

SAMIA: I agree with you. And you know I... one way that I think about this is also that when you use a negative emotion like anger, let's say, to push you to strive for justice, let's say… Like, you see something wrong or someone has done something wrong to you… like, you have suffered some kind of injustice yourself… I mean, it's very natural for us in that situation to experience anger. And for a lot of people, you know, that anger becomes their fuel for seeking justice, for wanting to create change. And it certainly is a kind of fuel, and it can certainly motivate you to, you know, do something, to create change, to seek justice, but the… any success that you achieve when you are being driven by your anger, it's like a narrow perspective on what that... on what success is. Because like you were saying, if you are being driven by anger, even the success that you achieve is incomplete because it's at the cost of your peace of mind, it's at the cost of your happiness… It may be at the cost of your relationships because when you're carrying that anger, it's going to hurt your relationships, and not just with the people that you're angry with. Our anger has a way of spilling out into other parts of our life, into our other relationships. And you know… so on the one hand you might achieve success in a certain narrow context, but you are also creating so much harm to yourself and to other people. So I'm like, that's not the kind of success I want. I want a more holistic kind of success, a more complete success, where I'm able to make the change that I want, where I'm able to achieve the justice that I seek, and still have my inner peace and happiness, and have better relationships… not damaged relationships, you know.

DANI: Yes, I couldn’t agree more with you. There are two aspects that I would like to add to what you have just told me. First, it's about the fact that challenging situations… sometimes they are inevitable, you know. We cannot avoid that or those in our lives, but everything boils down to the way you face them. If we lose our jobs or if I lose my job, if I just get stressed and depressed, that's something that will not help me at all.

SAMIA: Yeah.

DANI: On the other hand if I get balance and remain calm… I think, what can I do to get another job? What can I do to go towards another objective? Maybe it was positive to have lost that job, because now I have the opportunity to look for another one… Those are examples to deal the negative, or the challenge… that's the point… the challenge situation, in another way. The pandemic -- the pandemic is an amazing example because we know how much people learned from that tragedy. Of course we know that many people lost their loved ones, and that was not a positive scenario at all.

SAMIA: Yeah…

DANI: But we learned from that… we learned to be less selfish. In my case that pandemic helped my family to get closer, we have a more harmonic home now. Me and my husband... my husband and I, we are closer. And those are examples of positive consequence that came from a tragedy, you know. That's something important. Although in challenging… in negative events… you are able to have lessons, to take lessons. And they are... you can transform them into gifts, that's the point… instead of just seeing them in such a negative aspect. And there is an amazing example of a company that is about to just close its doors, and the CEO gets super stressed and in panic. And when he is able to get in touch with our program, and when he is oriented by those ideas, he starts to open his eyes to another perspective. For example, in that scenario, what can I do to reduce the damage? If I get or make a clean start, when it comes to my team… we’re gonna have just the best of the best. And the “C” performance ones, they are gonna leave… and now we are gonna have just the best ones in my company. That's an example. And the other person who unfortunately lost his job, he was able to see that he was close to being retired. And now he was able to handle that situation, and maybe retire earlier and have more... spend more time with his family. And it's important to see those events without panic. And I... it's so funny, Samia… I don't know if I have shared with you already… And I heard once that the antonym of clarity is drama, drama.

SAMIA: Oh my gosh, yeah! Clarity, drama... clarity, drama… Right, there are the two sides, opposite sides, of each other. Yeah, that is so cool. I had not heard that before, but I'm going to remember it.

DANI: Yes if we... if you stopped to just make drama, we would have our clarity, just close to ourselves more frequently.

SAMIA: I love that, I love that. You know, what you've been talking about makes me think about this concept of the sage and the saboteur. And I believe this is part of the teaching with fit… mental fitness. Can you tell me more about the sage and the saboteur?

DANI: Ah yeah, I love those, those names. I'm not talking about every single saboteur, or just the details regarding the sage… I know that we are almost running off time. But let me summarize. The saboteurs -- according to that research we have by… just give or take 10 saboteurs, there are 10 saboteurs. For example, a victim, that is just that martyr… “ahh, just poor me! Nobody likes me…” Deeper inside is because we want to have attention, you know. We want to call people's attention to ourselves. That's why sometimes we behave like that, you know, and that's an example. Because we are sabotaging ourselves doing that, because when we choose to behave or choose to have that mental frame, we are in a completely helpless situation, and that's not desirable.

SAMIA: Indeed.

DANI: We compromise our professional life, we compromise our relationships. It's pretty hard to have a good healthy relationship with that mental attitude.

SAMIA: Yes.

DANI: …Just an example…

SAMIA: Yeah.

DANI: And there is the perfectionist that we call the stickler because the...

SAMIA: yeah,

DANI: ..what I do is the perfect… Nobody does better than myself. I don't trust anyone to do that… At the end of the day he does that because somehow he wants to prove to himself that he's the best. And he's afraid of coming across with someone who is better than him or her, and takes his place. Those are behaviors of... as I told you, it's… that survival modes that we are used to turn on, and our brains are conditioned to doing that.

SAMIA: Yes, I... you know, this example of the perfectionist... I know I have a perfectionist side to me and I have to be really careful. Because on the one hand I know when I let my perfectionist go wild, it feels really good. Because you're like, "ooh yes, I did this and I did it just so…" And you know, there's a certain sense of control and power that you feel when you're doing everything by your definition of perfect. And there's a certain satisfaction that you get from being perfect. But on the other hand, then you are so focused on perfection… And really, underlying that… I know especially for me this is very, very true… that underlying that need for perfection there is a fear. There's a fear of making mistakes, there is a fear of losing control, and it really holds me back from being able to do the best that I can actually do, and from achieving what I can achieve. Because my fear of making mistakes, my fear of losing control, prevents me from asking for help, right. And if I can't ask for help then, no matter how good I am at whatever it is I'm doing, I will always be limited. I will always be limited in how much of that good thing I can do, and how much I can achieve just on my own. Because I have limited time, I have limited energy, you know, and all of that. So really, if I want to be able to keep growing and achieve even more success, then I have to be willing to ask for help. And therefore I have to be willing to let go of my need for control and do something about, you know, this fear… and just let it go.

DANI: Absolutely! Perfect, exactly like that. And besides what you told me, in a brilliant way we are able to see the solutions. There is another example from the corporate, and it's amazing… In a scenario again… chaos… In a scenario of chaos, there is a worker who was talking to his boss about the challenges that they were faced, because the results were not so good. And the worker was trying to show his boss the idea that, what if, what if next week, next Monday, we start our meeting by spreading the idea… what can we do today so that in three years from now we are gonna think that this challenge was the best thing that has already happened to ourselves

SAMIA: Yes.

DANI: …and because when you throw that idea on air, we break that negativity... That's the most immediate effect first. And the second, at the end of the day, the world is exactly the way we see. And when we start to see the solution instead of seeing only the problem, that changes completely the way we behave, or the way people around ourselves behave. And when that was spread, that idea… his team got motivated to change that scenario to, to make their best, you know.

SAMIA: Yes.

DANI: And it was so funny the answer of the boss, I forgot to mention... he mocked by telling, “come on! I'm not gonna live that life… just if it happens, it happens”, you know… just in a philosophical way, “come on!”... The first reaction was to just make that ironic, or to have that ironic, you know, answer, and etc. And at the end I'm really glad that he accepted. Because the king of the saboteurs is the judge. Because that was judged… “oh come on! You got… I think you just got crazy after being through that. You are not... you're not doing well!” And we judge, we judge, we judge people, we... judge ourselves all the time. And we forget, we forget to be more rational or more empathetic or more tolerant, because we are always judging and being judgmental. Even when we are children… is good to a certain extent, because that saves ourselves from danger, for example, and other children. Or we develop those ideas when we have parents that are not that good. And instead of just thinking that they're responsible… believes they are the... villains… is not the correct words… but people who have problems… Because we don't want to believe that… our health… we are in the hands of people who are not able to take care of myself… no, because my life would be in risk. So I prefer to think that the problem is myself, there is something wrong with me.

SAMIA: Yes, that... my gosh, yeah. There's so many kids… like, you see this very, very commonly, that like, when for example, if your parents are fighting, and they have an unhealthy relationship in that way, the children will blame themselves. They think, “it's my fault my parents are fighting”. Even though, as a matter of fact, it is not the kid's fault, it has nothing to do with the kid. But it's so natural and easy for the child to think that it's their fault because of exactly what you were saying… they're not able to fully understand the situation and they're not able to see a different, better, way to understand the situation. And the best they can do in that moment is to think, "oh, it's my fault". Yeah, that, oh.. that breaks my heart. That's right...

DANI: Yes! Exactly, exactly, yeah.

SAMIA: ..if an adult does something to, you know, blame or judge themselves or harm themselves, it's like one thing, you know. They're an adult. But when a child is suffering like that, I hate to see that.

DANI: Yes, it's terrible, it's terrible. And we take those ideas to... into ourselves, to our lives, when we grow up.

SAMIA: Yes, yes. So I think my last question probably, unless you give another brilliant answer and then I have to ask you a follow-up question… but for right now, the last question that's coming to my mind is… can you talk a little bit more about what is the proper way for us to understand and relate to our negative emotions? Because we have them. We have these negative emotions, we have these negative thoughts, and you know, we talked about a lot of the different ways in which we shouldn't relate to them, and transform them into something more helpful, better... So what is the best way for us to understand and relate to our negative emotions?

DANI: Ah, a great question Samia. First is to accept those emotions, to allow ourselves to feel them… that's the first. And the second, to ask ourselves the reason why we are feeling like that. Because let me tell you something, the pain that comes from the results of those negative emotions, they are kinda, they are similar to an alarm clock. There is a metaphor that I love… When you are cooking and just... you put without intention your hands on the hot stove, what happens? You remove automatically, because the pain, the heat that you felt, makes you...

SAMIA: Yes.

DANI: ..but instead of… just not listen to the reason why that pain is inside ourselves… instead of reflecting and removing our hands, if you just let our hands on the hot stove, our hands would burn up to the bones! And that would be so much painful. And that is exactly what happens when we try to forget that we are not in pain, or numb ourselves by eating or watching TV or drinking, or whatever it is. It's important to understand that our pain wants to show that there is something that must be done, so that we can return to a balanced way. And to round about... I’d like to tell you a short, a pretty short story about interpreting the events of life. There is a... I'm gonna be fast… there is a story called "Stallion…”, “The Stallion horse"... that's the name of the horse who lives in a farm with a guy and his teenager boy… Maybe you have already heard that story? Have you ever… you heard it?

SAMIA: I don't think so… Tell me more.

DANI: Yeah. And that horse is a champion, and they are super proud. And just out of the blue he was stolen.

SAMIA: Oh no!

DANI: And the family... in general the family... the boy mainly… the boy was super sad. And the dad says, "Who knows what is good, what is bad?'' Then everybody gets astonished, "how come? Are you not mad or sad because your horse was stolen?" And was… "I don't know, let's see". And a few days later his horse, it returns… is able to just get himself free. And with him, he brings another, or other two more, two horses. And he, instead of having just one, now they had three. And that was a blessing! And that's not the end. And when the boy was trying to train that one of those horses, he fell from the horse, he gets hurt, and he fractures his leg. And again, oh, that's so bad! And then dad says, "Who knows what is good and what is bad?''. And again a few days later there was a war in that village, in that part of the city. And every single young man was called. But his child was not because his leg was broken. And you know, and at that time people just didn't comment anything else, because the answer is "Who knows what is good and who knows what is bad?''.

SAMIA: Yes, that's right, that's right. Sometimes it's not... until you're able to look back that you're able to see all the good that came out of the situation you thought was bad. So just… if you are thinking, if you're feeling, you're in a bad situation now, maybe this is an opportunity to practice patience. And see this as a fun challenge to find the good in the situation, or see what good you can create from this situation. And you know, that is an amazing aspect of mental fitness… that is something that you will be able to do for yourself more and better the more mentally fit you are. So...

DANI: Yeah.

SAMIA: ..Yeah thank you so much Dani. Thank you so much for sharing everything that you did. I especially love all the examples and the stories that you give. They make it so much more easy to understand and remember what you're saying, and the point that you're making. I just love it. Thank you so much.

DANI: I really appreciate it. As always it was amazing to be here. And thank you, thank you so much for the opportunity.

SAMIA: Yay! Thank you Dani. And for our listeners, we are going to add Dani's links to the show notes. We'll add my contact links to the show notes. So please get in touch with Dani, get in touch with me. If you need any support, we're here for you. Take good care. :)