SAMIA: Hello, Salam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour and Buna! I am so happy to be with you again... And I'm extra happy well for many reasons but one of them is that we have an amazing guest with us today... Dionne Williams... Welcome Dionne... 

DIONNE: Hey... hi Samia thank you so much for having me... So excited to be here... 

SAMIA: Yes me too... And by the way Dionne is a Success and Emotional Mastery Coach... And today we are going to be delving into the topic of fear and transforming fear into something really amazing... And I'm so excited to have this conversation with you but before we jump into talking about fear Dionne... will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

DIONNE: Okay so right... So my background... my background is in business banking I've basically come up on the finance industry I've been helping entrepreneurs to start grow and scale their businesses since 2008... So I've had a lot of experience working with what we would call small business owners… so in the banking industry that would be any business under a million pounds in turnover and so I've seen a lot of businesses come and go be amazingly exceptionally successful and many not so... And so I've been I suppose had the pleasure of being able to have a really close view of what is it that makes somebody successful... And what are the things that cause people to either coast… coast along or effectively fail in business... What are those attributes are others character its characteristic that some people seem to naturally have and some struggle to build as they go along their entrepreneurial journey... So it's made for a very interesting kind of experience on my part now that I'm coaching individuals in my business because I'm able to use that experience to help people to see where they are you know… 

SAMIA: Yeah…

DIONNE: …sabotaging themselves... which is often what we do which we don't even realize it...

SAMIA: That is so true… That is so true... And what you're doing is so cool... And you know I just was so excited to bring you on this show because I know one of the things that you're so amazing at helping people realize about you know their own experience and struggle and helping them with… is this whole like fear thing that comes in our way...

DIONNE: Absolutely… So you and I were talking about you know it's foundational… the foundational piece of our entrepreneurial journey… it is the most important piece to ensure we have nailed because if we haven't nailed this foundational piece which is the emotional piece people think it's the mindset piece which is partly… but if we don't know or understand what triggers us what makes us tick what stops us what causes us to doubt and go into deflation at times if we don't get that... That goal that beautiful juicy goal that we're going for… it remains a pipe dream because we are unable to get past our own mechanisms… 

SAMIA: Yeah…

DIONNE: …that we unfortunately have in place that unfortunately is preventing us from actually achieving this goal that we consciously so want…consciously so want... 

SAMIA: And it's really cool that you actually do this distinction between mindset and emotional mastery because so often... I must admit even in my own thinking I will tend to sort of act like they're the same thing… because I mean they are connected for sure for sure they're so connected... But there are definitely times when we need to have that clarity of knowing they are different and what is really the issue... Is it the mindset aspect Or is it the emotional aspect... because sometimes it is that our way of thinking is having a causal impact on our emotional experience but sometimes you know there's something triggering the emotional experience and you know influencing even the mindset or/and to the extent that you know our conscious mind like you were saying maybe in a different space where it's trying to achieve a certain goal and consciously thinking in a different way but the emotions that have been triggered... oh man they are so much more powerful…

DIONNE: Absolutely... And that is the point... so many people embark on work to change their mindset …a lot of people are attempting to change their way of being and stop at their thought process...

SAMIA: Right…

DIONNE: As we know our conscious mind is simply only a tiny tiny tiny part of the whole...So we in our perception can trick ourselves… literally we trick ourselves into thinking we're doing all this work on our mindset …we because we're conscious of certain belief systems we know we have certain things that we need to address and so we will get to work on those things… and we can feel like we're making progress... And in some cases we are making some progress but as we know the fact remains that 90% of our consciousness is underneath the radar... 

SAMIA: Yeah... 

DIONNE: We don't even know what we believe truly… we don't know what those beliefs are... Because they're outside of consciousness... We don't …we're not aware that we believe this stuff... That's where the treasure is... That's where the true vote is... That is where the real transformation happens when we are able to get to the truth which is in our body …we feel this stuff we might not remember what why we feel that we might not remember the story or the incident that caused it because it's not conscious but we feel that... 

SAMIA: Yeah...

DIONNE: We feel it...

SAMIA: Yes... you are so right you're so right… You just made me think about how one of my teachers said that you know we think about we use this language of conscious mind and unconscious mind and a big truth about how or what our unconscious mind is... is that our entire body actually functions like our unconscious mind or is a part or an aspect of our unconscious mind …so everything that the body holds it has its own memory... and we know this like we have muscle memory but we have other kinds of memories that are stored into our body as well you know that can manifest as you know... Oh I feel this like chronic pain in some part of my body or a tension that I'm holding in some part of my body or you know things like that and that's all related to that unconscious aspect of our minds…

DIONNE: 100%... Or we could find ourselves in an incident where we react... extremely strongly... we get an intense feeling but logically there's no real reason for us to feel that way but for some reason something has been triggered inside of us and you know we can feel terrified or angry for no obvious reason because something in us has… it could be a smell it could be a sound it could be something on TV… that has brought up something within that we don't recognize but it triggers a really emotional response... So... 

SAMIA: Yes…

DIONNE: This happens in our businesses too...

SAMIA: Yes….

DIONNE: I mean if it's gonna come up it's gonna come up in your business if you have emotional stuff that hasn't been dealt with it will come up in your business 100%...

SAMIA: Yes... And can you give like some examples of how it shows up in our business…

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DIONNE: Okay... a really common one... Is when we go we want something so we have a goal we want to achieve something... However... so I'll do it in stages... So the mindset piece will be okay I really want this thing over there but my mind will start talking about all the reasons why it's not going to happen all the ways it might go wrong... 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: …And of course that negative thinking is going to trigger negative feelings or what we call …what people consider as negative feelings... I don't consider any feelings negative... When we understand our emotions we stop labeling them as negative… they're actually really really useful for us…

SAMIA: Yes... 

DIONNE: They are powerful... But most people will say this is negative because we've been raised and conditioned to believe our feelings are bad… 

SAMIA: Yes… 

DIONNE: We feel this emotion and then we believe something bad is gonna happen something is gonna go wrong... And so we talk ourselves out of the thing that we said that we wanted to go for... This also happens a lot when it comes to sales because sales is something that a lot of people can't do… they hate it… so you know we're business owners but we don't want to sell and of course a business cannot survive without sales... So you have this conflict okay I really want to help people but I don't really want to sell or I feel like a bad person because I'm asking for money or money is evil and makes me greedy… so there's so much conflict is going on and we haven't even done anything... Just in our brain all about conditioning and belief systems around money around what it means to ask for money what it means to be obligated to somebody else all of these belief systems start to come up and they will derail you they will keep you from being successful because of the story that what you believe it means about you who even sell your services though many people have you know... a lot of conflict around this and often can just end up not selling anything or doing everything for free because they feel bad as a person because you know their belief systems are telling them that you shouldn't be doing this…

SAMIA: Right... Right... And I know for me like when I had that attitude also that plagued me for quite some time where you know I had a very negative... actually it was more of a love hate relationship with money where I loved money and wanted money in some ways and in some context but at the same time I definitely also bought into the mindset of money is evil and it's like about greed and you know it's like about power and power corrupts and you know like that whole thing... And one of the things that I realized for me is that underlying a lot of that thinking were fears... like fears of rejection so like if I asked somebody for money and I got rejected or that'll make me feel bad so I had a fear of rejection but then also I had these fears of like not… like I have this huge huge value of living life with humbleness... And so I was afraid of becoming arrogant you know and you know sort of becoming bad… like cultivating bad pride if I made too much money and became too successful and you know things like that... So it's like on the surface I was giving all these justifications of how money is bad or you know people with money are bad but really underlying that at a deeper level were these other fears that were all mine… it had nothing to do with money or with anyone else with money…

DIONNE: Yeah fear of abandonment fear of rejection fear of failure fear of success fear of change fear of what other people may think you know this there's all of this stuff... Most people when they start a business no one says anything about all of this… 

Yeah…

DIONNE: You know... So most people will go to the business expert and say I want to achieve this big dream I want to make all this money and the person will say... Yes come on join my program I help you… but that person is unable to help them with the stuff…

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: Because they can give them all the processes and the steps and the funnels and the templates and this and that... But what they cannot do is help them to deal with themselves… 

SAMIA: Yes...Yes… That's true... And that's fine that other stuff doesn't work even though it's really good and stuff... It doesn't work because we are not able to really own it and apply it...

DIONNE: Implementation is where… I read some where statistically I think it's something close to 80% of courses aren't even completed…

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: You purchase courses and don't even do most of them because they stop…

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: Because again we don't realize realize this because we're not conscious of it... None of us are purposely going around trying to sabotage ourselves but we do... all of the time…

SAMIA: That's right... So what do we do about it… How do we stop… stop sabotaging ourselves… How do we learn to relate... and understand our fears especially in a more positive way in a more empowering way...

DIONNE: There's a few ways because again it depends on the individual... It depends on what these feelings and fears actually are... For somebody who's been through some sort of trauma of some kind I would probably help them in a slightly different way from somebody who has maybe felt less so… less less less so in terms of that those intensity and fear of feeling… but the truth is all fear is a fear of feeling... It's not a fear of failure... It's a fear of feelings...

SAMIA: Oh my God... yes…

DIONNE: All fear is fear of feeling... And I think that's what's so keys is for people to get it's not the actual situation or circumstance you want… It's the feeling you don't want... the humiliation the embarrassment the judgment… you know…

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: It's that's stuff that we don't want to feel... not the circumstance… but we don't... this doesn't register in our minds... it doesn't register… So what we will do everything we can to avoid those feelings and the thing is it's the thing that is that we need to action are the things we're trying to avoid... Because we think if we do that thing and I'm going to put myself I'm opening myself to be done I'm opening myself to fail I'm opening myself to be rejected or whatever it is… not saying this consciously but there's a part of us that is deeply afraid of these feelings... 

SAMIA: Yes… 

DIONNE: So what do we do? We have to stop being we have to get comfortable with feelings... That feelings is very sad when we start to we're happy with every single feeling when we're no longer afraid of our own feelings we've mastered the game...

SAMIA: Yes yes…

DIONNE: Mastered the game...

SAMIA: Yes…

DIONNE: So it's helping people to be comfortable with every single feeling that they feel which again is something that there's a lot of untruth that we've been carrying around with us since childhood… There are reasons why we have so much fear around our feelings resulting from when we're children and people tell us to be quiet... Don't cry... don't get angry... Don't do this don't do that... We learn to kind of disconnect from certain feelings because they're not acceptable we learn that to feel certain feelings is unacceptable... Some of us get punished for this… some of get real bad punishment for this… some of us have had things happen to us and in our child mind we've made it mean something very bad …and now we're adults we're still carrying around that same meaning… we’ve grown up but we still have the same meaning as we did when we were two five and whatever age these things occurred... So what I'm about is helping adults turn the story that they have because everybody has a meaning for the feeling so have a feeling in our head we've said... Oh this means something bad is gonna happen or this means they're talking about me this mean people don't like me or whatever it is that we say to ourselves we all have our own story about what these feelings mean… and we spoke the last time we spoke I give an analogy of... and I suppose I'm putting out listen to putting this out there to the listeners... Think about the times when you have been to an amusement park and you've you've gone to the scary ride because we all love the roller coaster or whatever is the one that goes around and around we go we pay money good money to go on these rides to experience scary feelings we know we're gonna have the scary feelings but we love it... We love those scary feelings we would be disappointed if we didn't feel that… yet transport ourselves into our own homes and we're sitting at our laptop or we have we're talking to somebody or having a debate with somebody if we experienced that exact same feeling... Oh my gosh we're terrified we don't want to feel it... 

SAMIA: Yes… 

DIONNE: It's the exact same feeling... why... Because in this situation it's fun in the other situation it's terrifying… 

SAMIA: Yes…

DIONNE: Meanings… definition change... feeling is the same the meaning has changed... And so it's helping people to see how our meanings and our different definitions are creating our experience and because we're having it in a totally different environment now it's terrifying… my actions are going to change… my behavior is going to change… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: And so there is so much juice in this because feelings don't mean anything at all... We decide…

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: We decide what they mean... We assume that we share meaning but we don't share meanings we all have our own meaning for why we feel the way we feel… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: I love the topic because people shy away from feelings... And a lot of I suppose mainstream and conventional conversations about feelings feed this trauma... Let's try not to …let's try to medicate this away or let's meditate this away or let's do anything to not feel this stuff... Let's try and get rid of them... Which is so sad because our feelings are ours... they are ours …they are a gift …they are not to be thrown away... When we understand them we make them friends…

SAMIA: Yes… 

DIONNE: For me that’s an ideal point… they are my friends like…

SAMIA: Yes…

DIONNE: As intense as terrifying as some of them may feel they are all my friends… they are for me…

SAMIA: That's right that's right... I am so with you on that... I think the idea of making friends with our fear or friends with any other feeling that you may not like to feel… I think that it sort of... reminds me of the same I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said… "The best way to defeat an enemy is to make him your friend"... And so if you are afraid if you have this mindset of you know the feeling of fear is my enemy or a feeling of sadness is my enemy or whatever other feeling you don't like to feel if you think of it as a bad thing and therefore you're judging it as this you know adversary in your life... The best absolute best way that you can actually defeat it as it were is by making it your friend…

DIONNE: Making it your friend... and just being aware of it because while you were talking I just thought about the probably about five people fifth person I've spoken to this week who has a fear of saying no… they don't like saying no to people… because they don't want to be seen as a bad person... Now if being seen as a bad person makes you feel so bad and feel so terrible… that feeling owns you... you are owned by that... So your power is no longer in you… you’ve giving your power away to a story of what it means to say no …so if you can't be okay with whatever that feeling is… like a curse you're always going to be at the mercy of other people taking advantage of you...

SAMIA: Oh yes... Oh my gosh that is such an excellent point that you made... This is actually I think one of the most important lessons I will say I have ever learned in my entire life... And I'm so grateful for having learned it because especially for those people who have struggled with relationships where you know people on the other side have been manipulative and controlling and abusive... I mean this is one of the key tools that people will use to manipulate you and keep you stuck in those kinds of toxic relationships… is that they play on your fear of how you know it makes you look... So it's like if you have a fear of being a bad person because you think saying no to someone makes you a bad person that person will say on that you know and use that fear to manipulate you… they'll be like... Hey how can you say no to me… You know that’s so mean of you to do that …or you know that is …how can you be so thoughtless or you know be so selfish to say no to me or not do this or not do that… and so to prove that you are not selfish or thoughtless or mean or this or that you do that thing even though there's like a part of you inside that screaming to warn you and be like no please step away stop don't do this but just to prove you know and to avoid that feeling of...

DIONNE: To avoid the feeling... 

SAMIA: Yeah…

DIONNE: To avoid the feeling... I want to make a really key point here is that… your feelings… people… a lot of people listen to and appreciate the different versions of the law of attraction so people assume that if I act like a nice person and I do all the right things and I take care of people and I'm nice to people and I'll do all the nice things that I'm being positive and I’m on a high vibration... But the fact and the truth is if inside you feel hate for yourself and you feel shame and you feel guilt and you feel like a bad person that is your point of attraction... It doesn't matter how nice you are... It doesn't matter how much you smile it doesn't matter how much you help people… your point of attraction is the truth and the truth is how you feel inside and that is what you're attracting so of course those who have that fear of feeling bad will attract those people that will manipulate them... It's just a law it's a law... you will attract somebody who is on the opposite pole... 

SAMIA: Yeah... And it's actually in a very interesting way… like if you take a spiritual perspective …the fact that you're attracting these people into your life who keep challenging this …challenging you in this way where you are internally challenged … it’s actually the universe's way of trying to help you... yes... 

DIONNE: Absolutely… 

SAMIA: Exactly... because once you learn to deal with this challenge you truly understand the root cause of why you're having this problem this fear and so forth then you know it's like wow... the next time something like that comes up you just deal with it and it's gone...

DIONNE: 100%... Once you deal with it... it's done… because you are you've detached… your emotional attachment to this feeling has been broken... 

SAMIA: Yes... 

DIONNE: So yes... it feels very very very very uncomfortable but once you've done it once... you have broken the attachment... it's because people are so afraid of their feelings they don't dare to break the attachment because they have a story about what it means about them and they think it means they're a bad person if they do this because in childhood the story started in childhood but what immediately…

SAMIA: Yes... 

DIONNE: So people are encouraged to... what can I do to make these people like me? What can I do? What can I wear? How can I behave? What can I... What can I put out there? You know all this stuff to externally try and change situations… when the truth is that it's a deeper issue we have to learn what's going on inside what's going on in here… this is the root cause of every other problem... They say you will learn the same lesson over and over and over and over again until you get the lesson... And that is the lesson …when you are when you continually are challenged in a certain situation by a certain type of person... You're so right the universe has given you an opportunity to choose differently… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: We have to remember we are grownups now we are not children anymore... we do not have to operate at the level of a child anymore anymore we are safe to be and do and be assertive as grownups... it's really important that we address this stuff because it frees us to make real adult grown up choices without the burden of feeling too scared all the time…

SAMIA: Oh my gosh...

DIONNE: What will happen to me... what will people think about me... You won't have that anymore because you freed yourself from the feeling because let's be honest nobody shares this stuff …they keep it to themselves it's all in their own mind they're not telling anybody this is what's going on… 

SAMIA: Yeah yeah… it's interesting like even if you do tell somebody that this is going on in your mind... I mean I think you have to be also sort of a little bit aware of who you are telling and where they are at in their stage of growth and evolution you know …because if that person struggles with the same problem that you have… well they're not going to be able to do a whole lot to help you get out of it and God forbid if you are talking to somebody who has even less skill and less awareness than you do then my gosh... they're likely to pull you even further down… down and make things even worse for you and so sometimes we have to I guess... choose very carefully who we share... 

DIONNE: Very very… because I see a lot of people coming to experts… 

SAMIA: Yeah…

DIONNE: You know some professionals will give you drugs for this kind of... you know some professionals will tell you that you were depressed… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: Some professionals will tell you that you know you can only help someone at the level you can help yourself…

SAMIA: Exactly... yeah yeah… 

DIONNE: So if you're getting advice from someone who is struggling with their own feelings and doesn't know how to deal with their own feelings... 

SAMIA Yes...

DIONNE: I'm not really sure what they can help you with... 

SAMIA: Exactly… 

DIONNE: I'm not sure... but we can all try and be… we can only try where we are… but for me feelings are the key... emotions are the key... If we can master our emotions we are no longer a slave to our sabotaging patterns and childhood patterns and past painful experiences because we're no longer led by the triggers that they cause within us… 

SAMIA: Yes... yes... I think I agree with you I think I agree with you because even when I think about you know like in positive psychology research and even in general psychology now it's very very strongly established that there is this like causal chain that exists between our beliefs thoughts feelings and actions… and it actually goes in that order and it can go in both ways… so it's like...

DIONNE: Goes both ways... yeah…

SAMIA: Yeah... beliefs lead to your thoughts… thoughts lead to your feelings and your feelings are the most direct cause of your actions… and then when the chain is traveling the other way which it totally can… the actions you take have the most direct impact or a causal impact on how you're feeling which then impacts the way you're thinking which then impacts what you believe... And you know so for sure when it comes to creating change at the level of our actions because that's where most people really want to focus …they want to change their actions …because I think people realize that when you change your actions you change your results... of course… but the thing that really really most strongly impacts your actions is actually your feelings... So emotionally... so emotional mastery is in fact then the key is the most direct key to creating the change that you want in your actions and therefore the results that emerge in your life… 

DIONNE: Absolutely... because let's be honest Jeff Bezos Bill Gates… whoever... they could come and give you the ten steps to making millions of pounds right now… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: And most of us wouldn't do it... Not because we're not capable but because half of the steps on the list are going to cause extreme discomfort... we won't realize it we will give ourselves reasons and excuses why we can't do that because we're very good at giving ourselves reasons and excuses why we can't do things but that is… the bottom line most of us won't take the action because we'll start scratching our head and thinking about all the things that we need to do instead... I'm gonna have to call all these people...

SAMIA: Oh my gosh... 

DIONNE: …you know it's not about the action… the action is… we know the actions to do… they...

SAMIA: Right… 

DIONNE: We just don't want to... So you know we are very funny but we can overcome this when we no longer are afraid to feel and that's the beauty of it …the only people that don't feel anything are no longer with us… 

SAMIA: Yeah…

DIONNE: We have to start getting comfortable with our own feelings… they're not going anywhere...

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DIONNE: Not going anywhere... 

SAMIA: Yeah... all right so I think on that note we need to wrap up for today... But thank you so so much for joining us Dionne and sharing all of your amazing wisdom... I am just so appreciative of everything that you have shared… and to you who are listening are watching this interview… thank you for joining us... And please make sure that you check out the show notes for this episode because we are going to be adding Dionne's links there... I'll add my links there …please reach out for help and support if you find that our perspective and our way of looking and thinking about this issue especially in the context we have primarily been talking about how to connect with our emotions understand our emotions our fears… if this is an approach that resonates with you please reach out and get the help and support that you need... And yeah basically with that until we connect next time I wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)