SAMIA: Hello, Salam, Shalom, Privet, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Buna and Bonjour! It's so so awesome to be with you again... And I know you're going to be so happy you are joining us today because I have a very very special guest and so excited for the conversation we're going to be having and it’s Dorinda Baker... Dorinda is a Relationship Coach and Online Dating Expert... So welcome again and please tell us more about who you are and what you do...

DORINDA: My name is Dorinda Barker... As Samia kindly introduced me I am a Relationship Coach and Online Dating Expert... I actually started out in the online dating world …and through the years of being on the online dating world and having clients I've realized it was also about dating in relationships it wasn't just about getting the dates online… I was teaching people what the right photos were the bios that were eye-catching the responses that were gonna get responded back to… all of that… but after you go on the date after you get the right responses what do you do after that... and it wound up that I just started… I started in relationships …started into relationships and helping people through them… then in my last few… I just went to a wedding this weekend of some… of two… of a couple that I actually set up...

SAMIA: Aww... that's so awesome... And I'm so glad...

DORINDA: So I can say I have two weddings under my belt now...

SAMIA: Nice...

DORINDA: Babies and engagements… so I have those too...

SAMIA: Awesome awesome awesome… Okay so you know I'm so happy to be talking with you because relationships my gosh... figuring them out is one of the most important things we have to do in our lives... And surprisingly that's also pretty much where so much of the conflict in our lives comes in from… and so talking to a relationship coach you know I think is going to provide such amazing amazing value to all of our listeners who are trying to create positive change in their lives and make that change more fun and easy… So tell me more… like what is a big problem that you see your clients dealing with… 

DORINDA: I see so much of my clients dealing with… when they're dating people... First of all they're looking at things that should be secondary instead of looking at the things that should be first... You should be looking especially when you're dating... So of course we're going to look at what the person looks like …we're going to look at that… that's number one even though most relationships I know that worked out that's actually has become secondary when people actually take that moment to actually get to know the person then the looks are secondary to all of that... it really is true …but coming from the online world... but when it comes to certain things we need to know ourselves first... Honestly we have to know ourselves when it comes to dating and if we don't do that I tell people not to date… like they shouldn't be dating... They should have a relationship with themselves first… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DORINDA: And then once they do that then they should date because then they know what they should be looking for… they know what is going to drive them… they know what the similarities that they're going to want in someone you know...Yeah… 

SAMIA: Yeah… You know you made me think about the specific challenges that young people especially fall into with dating relationships and why for example teenagers when they get into dating relationships are much more likely to have problems and experience teen dating violence… because they haven't figured themselves out they have limited experience with relationships in general... And so then you get into this very specific kind of a relationship which is hard even for adults to figure out and deal with... Oh my gosh so it… the situation can get really complex especially for the young people… 

DORINDA: Oh yeah... and we learn our dating values and how we date and the people that we are attracted to… start when we're in our younger years our informative or as I say our formative years... 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DORINDA: And you can choose to break your cycle or you can choose to keep going in that cycle...You know when we're younger I know in our culture… in our culture… in the western culture… that we don't teach our younger generations how to date… we don't... 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DORINDA: And we don't teach them this is right this is wrong... We're also not teaching our children different than the way we were taught… 

SAMIA: Yes... Why is that… Because it's by the way not just in the Western culture it's totally a huge issue in my culture as well and by my culture now I'm talking about my Indian Pakistani and Muslim culture...

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DORINDA: Yeah... And what happens is through generations... generations change... Its evolution...

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DORINDA: In the sense of you know I'm not talking like a Christian or science… it's just the evolution of who we become… 

SAMIA: Yeah... 

DORINDA: Because each generation changes... 

SAMIA: Yes... 

DORINDA: And we… yet we want to… the older generation wants to still teach what they know… which I think is amazing and great... But the world is always changing… 

SAMIA: Yes… 

DORINDA: And the world views are always changing... And we cannot keep the world views outside out from us they're going to seep into us and we're going to want to have some of the… some of those views because they sit with us the right way… 

SAMIA: That's right… And I suppose part of it is also that you just can't teach to the next generation what you don't know yourself and... 

DORINDA: Exactly... 

SAMIA: Yeah... and I’ve seen this a lot because I used to work on a crisis hotline Domestic Violence Crisis Hotline and you see in families where there's domestic violence it's oftentimes generational... And like you… and it's generational because like literally the previous generation got into that kind of abusive relationship… they don't know how to deal with it… how to help themselves out of it and so forth... You as a child learn to normalize those kinds of behaviors and attitudes and so then you don't know any better you don't expect any better in your own relationships and so then you end up sort of reproducing the things that you saw happening with your parents and so forth… and it… probably the same thing might be true for your parents and then you pass on that to your children... And it's just a very difficult …difficult cycle to break… 

DORINDA: Oh yeah you are... You learn what you are taught… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DORINDA: And even what you're not if you're what you're taught without even knowing that you're learning… you get what I'm saying because nobody teaches someone to abuse someone right... No one teaches you to stay in the place that you are… It's a learned behavior we're all you know in… you have to want to change …but the thing about people a lot of times is …and I say this all the time… people are in their comfort… but comfort doesn't always have to be good…

SAMIA: Yes yes… Yeah… 

DORINDA: Comfort is what you know… and comfort is where you're safe... And just because you're safe doesn't mean it's good for you…

SAMIA: Right… Yeah... And even that sense of safety is very narrow because if you're in an unhealthy relationship you're feeling safe in a certain context and to a certain extent… but there are other ways in which you're miserable and you're unhappy and you don't want to be there...

DORINDA: Oh yeah... And I think people get stuck in relationships just for the sake of relationship…

SAMIA: Yeah…

DORINDA: I don't... yes... they get stuck because they don't want to be alone they don't... they don't want to be known as a failure... Actually, the bravest thing you could ever do is walk out of a relationship... 

SAMIA: Yes... 

DORINDA: Especially if it is unhealthy... If it is unhealthy… if it is physical …if it's violent in any way… we'll just go with… violent in any way …even if the two of you are just not meant to be… it's…to stay for the sake of staying in today's world is not a good thing it's really not... 

SAMIA: Yeah... 

DORINDA: Because I believe that everyone should have whatever their happiness is... 

SAMIA: Yeah... 

DORINDA: I am whatever your happiness is and if that's not there why live a life that you're actually not living… 

SAMIA: Yes... And you know it's not just about today's world either… I mean this is actually one of the things that I'm really passionate about raising awareness within my… especially my Muslim community …because in a traditional Muslim context there is huge taboo in many Muslim cultures... I mean Muslims are not all the same …we have actually a lot of diversity... So for sure there are Muslim cultures like especially in the Arab world where they have a pretty cool attitude about divorce and their you know… it's fairly normalized... But there are a lot of Muslim cultures like especially in the traditional Indian Pakistani Muslim culture where I grew up until I moved to America... Divorce is like a taboo and... 

DORINDA: Yeah... 

SAMIA: …like it's actually considered a really really bad thing... And so people will suffer through so much but not be willing to break the relationship because they just think it's such a bad thing… but when you actually look at the teachings of Islam …in the Quran itself which is our Holy Scripture …you know it says the purpose of marriage is so that you can love and be in love and tranquility with each other… like that is the vision that the Quran teaches us for why it's promoting marriage in the first place... 

DORINDA: Yeah… 

SAMIA: And so if you are not able to create a relationship where you are able to experience that love and tranquility… I mean the Quran itself again says it's better to separate and it allows that to happen... And yet people totally ignore that part of the teaching and just focus on the part where it discourages it in contexts where perhaps people might be inclined to take that decision to separate too prematurely …where maybe they have not put in enough thought or effort into creating the healthy relationship or resolving the conflict…

DORINDA: Oh yeah... I'm getting relation... excuse me... Relationships are work... so if someone says they're supposed to be easy I will disagree with them every day… should it be a job that you love.. Yes… Automatically... Should it be a job where you know there's going to be some times that it's you're like... Ahhh… yes... automatically…. 

SAMIA: Yeah... 

DORINDA: But those times never outweigh the times of …we did this together we built a life together there is no one in the world I would rather do this with… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DORINDA: We communicate… which is number one… you have to be able to communicate and be able to do that without having the breakdown of communication... And but that all comes… stems from having to do the work on yourself…. 

SAMIA: Yeah... Hmm... 

DORINDA: That's it… in it... you have to do the work on yourself to know if this is the right person... And if you yeah... that is so important… 

SAMIA: Yeah... it goes back to what you shared earlier when you said you have to know yourself first... 

DORINDA: Yes... yeah you have to know yourself first... If you're going into a relationship because the person has money they have some kind of stature they… I mean we can go into a laundry list of things... 

SAMIA: Yeah 

DORINDA: … a potential... potential… But if you're looking at all of those things but you're not looking at how the person makes you feel.. you're not looking at how that person… how you two talk to each other… how in the conversations you have or not lifting each other up and especially in the hard times …if they're …whatever makes you tick and run… 

SAMIA: Yeah... 

DORINDA: And it's not fulfilling those boxes for you then why are you there… 

SAMIA: Yeah... I mean okay… just to play the devil's advocate… 

DORINDA: Yeah... 

SAMIA: So now I'm… I'm channeling some of the things that I've heard… and people say… who choose to stay even you know when they're miserable and they... 

DORINDA: Yeah… 

SAMIA: My gosh... So something that I've heard a lot of people say is... well… yes I'm miserable but it's my purpose… I feel like it's my purpose as the mom or the wife or you know the girlfriend to take care of this other person or these other people in my life and that's my job… and so I… if that means I have to sacrifice my happiness so that they can be happy and they can thrive in their life… well then I've done my job and that gives me satisfaction… and you know that's… that's like not only the reason to stay but it's like my duty to stay...

DORINDA: I can understand... I definitely understand that... And I know people who have been in 25 year marriages and then once the kids are grown and out the door they get divorced because they only stay for that reason... And to be honest in the end the kids already knew that their life wasn’t picture-perfect... I would say there's a substantial amount of marriages where the kids I think probably would have benefited from the parents not being together… 

SAMIA: Mm hmm… 

DORINDA: You know… it's… you know… and what I'm trying to say here is… I'm not saying I'm an advocate for divorce because I am not …I'm an advocate for love… I'm an advocate for relationships… I'm an advocate for commitment… 

SAMIA: Yes… 

DORINDA: But what I'm also an advocate is... is for both people to really know themselves and to then come into a relationship …know themselves and love themselves and then come into the relationship as two people who are full with themselves… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DORINDA: that then meet and have things in common... And the things that matter… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

DORINDA: Instead of one going... Oh he has the things I want...

SAMIA: Yeah...

DORINDA: ...to fulfill me... No... you don't go into a relationship to have someone else fulfill you... You go into a relationship because you're already fulfilled...

SAMIA: Yes… Okay...  we have to come back to this part about not going into your relationship because you expect someone to fulfill you... but before we do that I just want to highlight another really important connection that I just made from a point we made earlier about how you know these abusive relationships when people are stuck in them it can create that impact of generational trauma...

DORINDA: Yes

SAMIA: …you know… And so if you are staying in an unhealthy relationship because you're concerned about your kids… that's actually very… like you're actually inadvertently doing the opposite of what's the best for your kids because if you're staying in an unhealthy relationship you're teaching your kids to do the same…

DORINDA: Exactly…

SAMIA: You know so it's not...

DORINDA: …it's dangerous...

SAMIA: Yeah... yeah…

DORINDA: It's so dangerous for your kids because you're showing your kids that this is okay... And so in you know of course you know… a majority you know of female children …and male children… it... I'm not gonna say it you know and it could crossover …could be totally different you know …but what they see is what they learn… right... So let's say we have you know women who are in abusive relationships …most of these women …a majority of these women who get interviewed and they talk… how many times have you said heard my father abused my mother …my grandfather abused my grandmother …or my grandfather abused me or my father abused me or my... you know we can go down a list of the abuse but they were abused before...

SAMIA: Yeah…

DORINDA: And then when you talk to the men to boys men it's the same thing it's... I would say hardly ever you're coming from a place where they come from loving homes and now they're just be abusing people… I mean there are some cases like that but they're very far and few in between…

SAMIA: Right... Yeah you're right you're right… The stats actually support what you're saying…the stats support what you're saying... Okay all right... So coming back to that other point about …because you know in our culture there's all these sayings that we hold up as... Oh that's such a romantic… the most amazing thing this other person has said …or can be to me… in relation to me ….where people say things like… you complete me and I want you to be that person in my life who completes me... like what's up with that… Like where are people coming from when they think from that… or they're thinking that… and like why is that actually a problem…

DORINDA: Jerry Maguire... you know we watch these movies...

SAMIA: Yeah...

DORINDA: And we see …we romanticize relationships too and this is the other like you had me at hello right or you know different you know …they… I can go into a whole laundry list of things …like When Harry Met Sally is one of …is one of my favorite films of all time... I love that film and I can watch it again and again and again right...

SAMIA: Yeah

DORINDA: ...but I also now have grown up going that everything's like When Harry Met Sally you know… I'm not going to have the guy running to a New Year's Eve party to get there by midnight for him to tell me this whole you know paragraph of why he you know why he wants to be with me you know… and I think we romanticize things thinking that this is the way it's supposed to be... But real relationships… going into what we were talking about is work... So real relationships… there's someone you want to be with …you have to have the same commonalities or you can be different… I just had this conversation with someone the other day with him… so so had this conversation a few days ago… and opposites do attract don't get me wrong …but in there somewhere in there commonalities …the big ones… they were common…

SAMIA: Yes... yes…

DORINDA: It was always gonna be that way... You know my mom and dad …perfect example... My mom loves to be the traveler... She is very outspoken… my dad's you know a quiet dude doesn't like to travel… doesn’t… She travels all over the place he stays home they have a great marriage they love each other… and they are friends like will ride or die with each other …but they're definitely opposites there… but you know what their commonalities of how they wanted their family to be and how they wanted their relationship to be… was the same…

SAMIA: Ah! Such a great example and you made me think of my parents that are a great example of this as well... My parents are so different from each other in so many different ways… for example I think one of the biggest differences that I feel in my relationship with my parents is that my dad is more like me in the sense that you know we are very intellectual and philosophical and we are nerdy and geeky we love to learn and do lots of research about everything and you take a deep dive... like a few days ago it's so happened that we had to get rid of my bed and get a new bed new mattress everything… I spent two days researching in detail all the different kinds of variations in mattresses and mattress technology and then different kinds of bed frames and bed foundations and what bed frame foundation will match what matches the best …and I did this whole research and then I came to a conclusion and I followed through on what I found through my research... Now my mom… that kind of thing is just not her thing...

DORINDA: She sees it… she's like I want that…

SAMIA: Ah... that... but also if I if we try to make her go through that kind of a process it gives her a headache and she just it's just not her thing you know… so that's just one big difference between them …and then there's lots of other little big differences between them… but the glue of their relationship is what's common between them and that's their core values for loving family prioritizing family and their concept of what that means you know… what family is and how to be a family… that is so much in common …they have their faith in common you know as practicing Muslims …and not only are they both practicing Muslims but their idea of what it means to be a Muslim actually matches to a very great degree… because not all Muslims think the same about how to be Muslim…

DORINDA: Yeah...

SAMIA: And you know that's like also another big thing that I love talking to Muslims about... because especially for Muslims who are committed to their Muslim identities sometimes you're like okay I'm gonna marry another Muslim and that's it... And so you know …do you identify as a Muslim …and then oftentimes people won’t dig deeper into well how do you actually interpret the teachings of Islam and living Islam because my gosh we have seriously… like we have a full spectrum from very traditional conservative attitudes and ideologies to very very liberal progressive ones and you know like they don't get along...

DORINDA: Yeah…

SAMIA: Or it's very hard for them to get along... And so just imagine like getting into a marriage where you haven't verified that your Muslim ideals or ideas of being Muslim match...

DORINDA: And that I mean that's… it's... I love that you said that because just because you're inside the same religion doesn't mean that you have the same values…

SAMIA: Right...

DORINDA: Yes… It's very very true... And these are things you should always talk about with your partner before going into a more in-depth relationship whether it be marriage or long term relationship …but anything that's going to put you with years into a relationship these are things that need to be talked about…

SAMIA: Yeah... yeah… Can you give me some more examples of things that couples should for sure talk about...

DORINDA: Oh my goodness how they're going to raise their children... Number one is I think to me… that is something you need to talk about… how are you going to raise your children… you know how do you see your life… in together …like how do you see how are you going to raise your child and then how do you see your life together …where are you going to live... that's a huge one… Where are you going to live… finances... Finances are huge …you need to talk about how are you going to do your finances… how do you see each other going into this marriage and how do you see each other five years from now… in 10 years from now… how do you see yourselves together...

DORINDA: Yes...you know… And these conversations have to happen before you get married …because a lot of people who get married get married for the dress as I say …they get married for the dress and the party…

SAMIA: Yeah…

DORINDA: And I do ask people who are getting married so have you guys had the conversation... And they're like What do you mean… and I'm like… have you talked about all of the things I just mentioned… they’re like oh yeah but we've been together long enough to know... No no no no... there is this thing in... I don't know if you have it in the Muslim religion and I'm sure you do because there's so many similarities in all the religions… but in Catholicism there is a thing called pre Cana... So pre Cana is basically before two people get married they sit down with a counselor …a lot of times it's a priest… it’s a priest or someone within… normally within the church …there's one in New Jersey that's known for like the… one of the best …because there they say 50% of the couples that go to this weekend retreat walk out of there not getting married...

SAMIA: Ah! mhmm...

DORINDA: But to me I was like that's amazing... Because you want to know why... they had it might if they would have spent more years together that's less years of not being with the person that you're really supposed to be with...

SAMIA: That's right that's right... and not to mention if you get married and then you get divorced or it comes down to that… it’s a much more complicated and oftentimes traumatic process to go through…

DORINDA: Yeah…

SAMIA: Yeah...

DORINDA: Exactly... and so I believe that everyone who is going into a serious relationship whether it be marriage or long-term …at some point should see someone...

SAMIA: Yeah…

DORINDA: ..to see where they are together …sometimes you need a mediator sometimes you need someone to point certain things out sometimes you need someone just to be there so you feel comfortable to have those conversations…

SAMIA: Yes!

DORINDA: Even though you should be comfortable enough to have those conversations…

SAMIA: Yes…

DORINDA: You should... I think it's good to have those conversations with someone…

SAMIA: Yes... I agree with you and you know the thing is that in our traditional culture it was interestingly not the couples… the prospective bride and groom that had the conversations… but what happened and even today actually if you're living like you know practicing the traditional aspect of the culture in India and Pakistan and we have arranged marriages... What happens is that the families are meant to actually go through that process rather than just the prospective bride and groom …so the families are supposed to meet and the elders in the family are supposed to guide the process of you know talking about all of these things… and you know oftentimes that's when a lot of you know ugliness comes out but it's a good thing that it comes out because then you know oh my gosh it's like because otherwise... oh my gosh you would have gone in blind... And so at least now you know what the problems are and how you want to respond …like lit… just literally yesterday I was watching an Indian movie where this exact scene happened where they you know they were having this conversation about like the bride in the groom actually prospective bride and groom liked each other they were interested in each other but they never did the financial part of the conversation… then the families got into the financial part of the conversation and all kinds of ugliness came out and… and then and this was like a cool thing… the bride actually empowered herself and she was like... okay now I have this information and now I know what to consider as I think about what my… what I want my future to be like and what… if I want to even be in this relationship… and I was so proud of the heroine for taking that stance because oftentimes you know in these depictions the heroine in this case like they wouldn't have had her speak up in this way you know so... yeah…

DORINDA: Yeah... it's but yeah... it's so important… I mean especially going into these important unions you have to have these conversations …and also what it also shows you is how you really do communicate in a relationship …that you should never be afraid to have your voice in a relationship...

SAMIA: Yes…

DORINDA: Never …and if you're afraid to have your voice in that particular relationship then I think that that's not the relationship you should be in...

SAMIA: Right…

DORINDA: Because in a relationship you should be equals... equals in the sense of like of course we're all going to have different roles... That's not what I'm talking about… but equals when it comes to your voice…

SAMIA: Right... Like the power balance should be there… there shouldn’t be a huge power imbalance where one person is afraid of the other person… where one person feels like I have to do what the other person wants otherwise they'll be upset or they'll get angry or our relationship will not be able to survive if I don't do what this other person says…

DORINDA: Yes... because guess what …that relationship isn't going to survive anyway… there's going to be something there... if that's where you're at …there's going to be something else that's going to happen in that relationship that it won't survive…

SAMIA: At least not in a healthy state...

DORINDA: No …not in a healthy state... no it would not… no... yeah no not at all... I mean that's not a healthy relationship too if you're afraid… if you are afraid in any way …and once again I'm not saying it's abusive …that's not what I'm saying …because some people can just be afraid to use their voice at all …and there's nothing really abusive going on they're just afraid to use their voice...

DORINDA: Yeah

SAMIA: ...because they're you know… but you should always be powerful enough to say what's on your mind and to be able to communicate right because there's some people who they just tell instead of talk…

DORINDA: Right... yeah...

SAMIA: Yes...

DORINDA: and I want to thank you for bringing up the point about that if there is this power imbalance that it's not automatically an abusive relationship because... sometimes it's a matter of perception where it's not that the other person would actually have a bad reaction to your speaking up …but you have that fear …and I have seen this a lot actually also in the context of that the way things work in my culture because... You know again the traditional aspect of my culture is patriarchal and women are literally taught… like mothers will teach their daughters …I've actually heard my mother say this to me on I don't know how many occasions …and I've argued with her on this point... But I've actually had her say to me she says things like… she's like… in a marriage you know you have to be ready to take on the responsibility …the primary responsibility to make the relationship work… because her logic is as follows… that women are just smarter about relationships and they have more patience and they have more compassion and you know… so they have to take on the greater responsibility to make relationships work... Men… I mean they have… most women in our culture have loving this respect for the men in their lives… and so they don't believe that the men in their lives have the capacity to be mature enough to be able to like respond in the best ways to conflict in different kinds of situation or to disagreement and this and that… and I'm like okay but if it is like that...that's all learned behavior...

SAMIA: Yes

DORINDA: ...both on the part of the men and the women… and I'm not willing to be like that …so if I ever get married which I'm totally not interested in right now... But if I was ever to get married it will be too a man who is you know mature enough and wise enough and open enough to having this more equal kind of a relationship where I don't have to take the great… greater responsibility of making the relationship work...

SAMIA: But your mom is right …we are smarter...

DORINDA: That part I mostly agree with...

SAMIA: Yeah... we are… let's be honest... But it's okay because then it is being in a relationship where your partner's also willing to learn… your partner wants to be there… your partner is up for caring for you… your partner is… it's not one way… because you can teach and like your partner can teach you things too… that's the other thing...

DORINDA: That's right… your partner... yeah… your partner should… you two should always be learning from each other and that's a great thing... you should also in relationships have each other's back...

SAMIA: Yes…

DORINDA: You need to be a team... even if let's say you might not agree all the time because you're not going to agree all the time in a relationship …but if your partner says there is something that they want to do and you have their back and you believe in them …there is nothing better in any relationship than your partner believing with you… believing in you 100%...

SAMIA: Yeah...

DORINDA: Yes…

SAMIA: Yeah... that is amazing... Yeah... oh my gosh and oh man... it …we are at a time where I want to keep talking with you and we have to wrap up for the day …and I'm just sorry because I'm just having so much fun and we'll just bring you back for sure...

DORINDA: Oh yes... I'll come back …let me know...

SAMIA: Awesome awesome... Let's do that… let's make it happen... So for right now do you have any last words of wisdom or anything else that you would like to say...

DORINDA: Yeah... what I'm gonna… what I'm gonna say… make sure when you get into a relationship it's for the right reasons and make sure it's because you're ready and you love yourself so you can go in and love someone else correctly …as long as you can love yourself correctly you can love someone else correctly...

SAMIA: Yeah... oh amazing amazing... awesome... So to all of our… to our listeners… please make sure you check the show notes because we're going to be adding both of our links in the show notes so you can connect with us if and when you're ready for help and support... and in the meantime I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)