SAMIA: Hello, Salam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour and Buna!It's so awesome to be with you again today and guess what we have a very cool guest with us Francine Tirrell…. did I say your name right...

FRANCINE: Tirrell…

SAMIA: Tirrell...

FRANCINE: Yeah… 

SAMIA: I always mess up with the last name… thank you for correcting me on that and Francine is a mindset leadership coach and an energy healer and I'm so excited to have you on welcome Francine...

FRANCINE: Thank you I'm so excited to be here… 

SAMIA: Yay so Francine I'll ask you to jump right in and tell us more about who you are and what you do… 

FRANCINE: Sure so like you said I'm a mindset leadership coach and what does that mean right I really help mostly women in business and entrepreneurs really to get out of their own way because I feel like nobody is in our way but us right so I help them to learn how to lean more into their feminine energy become more vulnerable and set healthier boundaries so that they can live a life of joy and freedom… and freedom from that constant chatter that they have in their heads right that might be telling them you know they're not doing enough they aren't enough whatever that is right so I help them quiet that chatter and own their amazingness right so really shifting that mindset so that the internally.... so that they can have external success… 

SAMIA: Nice I love that and I 100% agree with you that it is really that you know inner chatter the negative judgments and self-blaming and self-criticizing and so forth that we do… it's that… that's our biggest obstacle… 

FRANCINE: Absolutely absolutely and that I have a Facebook group called she got out of her own way... because I really do believe that the only person that stops us is ourselves because we listen to that chatter and we then believe it so part of our work... our healing work is to stop believing those inner voices and really create some new ones… 

SAMIA: Yeah so when you say healing work... tell me more about that… how… when you think about healing work what does that involve for you… 

FRANCINE: Yeah... so I do hands-on healing but and that can be a nice addition to the coaching that I do but when I talk about healing work it's really inner healing right… it is shifting our mindset it is making decisions to really choose differently right to respond differently I don't... I believe we can't change other people's behaviors but we can change our response to them right so if we're constantly responding in a certain way to somebody's behaviors at some point we have to recognize that person is not going to change but we get the right to change how we respond to it right so that's where the healing starts to… part of it I think starts with awareness right and understanding our responses and behaviors and then we decide differently and we make different decisions going forward… 

SAMIA: Very very cool and again I'm with you on board…

FRANCINE: It's powerful work because we get to do… you know we stopped pointing fingers at everyone else that's in our way or they did this or they said that and we can start looking at ourselves right and what's coming up for us when external things are happening right because we can't... we have no control about anything external we only have control over what is happening internally with us so we start to shift that and then the things around us start to shift right so when we do the healing we work on our own inner peace and you and I talked about this right then it shifts the world around us right but we can't fix everyone else because nobody's broken right we're not broken it's just learning to be in alignment with who... what our true calling is and to heal that… 

SAMIA: Oh my gosh okay so you just had at least two really profound things I think… and I would love to dig deeper into them with you... the first was you know what you were talking about in terms of you can't heal others you have to focus on yourself and that's like a super important I think insight because you know I know when we're dealing with people like you and me and people like you and me I… you know I'm thinking of us as change makers…we are into creating massive positive change in our lives and in the world... that you know we we have this consciousness of wanting to create massive positive change in our lives and the world… that is what makes us change makers it is what I know is what made me want to become a coach and a trainer and a healer and do this work that I do… and at the same time you know you're saying and I'm saying that we cannot change others… so what are we really talking about you know… 

FRANCINE: Well I think as a coach I consider myself a guide right... like I will tell my clients all day long I'm not here to tell you what to do I really believe you have the answers within you and sometimes we can't see our own blind spots right… I know myself I have some sometimes I've had more than one coach right at a time because even as a coach I don't see my own blind spots and so I feel like as a coach and as a healer my job is really just to hold the space and the energy to help my clients facilitate the change… they have the answers right I just ask them certain questions or help guide them along their process and give them a different perspective or way to look at things differently… 

SAMIA: Yeah I love that I love that you know this makes me think about how over the years I have come to see leadership and the role of leaders also differently because I know growing up well I moved around a bit and I moved like... I started out my life in India and Pakistan in the Middle East before we came to America... and in all of those cultures certainly as I experienced them it's very interesting that you know there is much more of a collectivistic mentality as opposed to like an individualistic culture and so what happens in that context is that you know... I was never really taught to think very much of myself as an individual and what role I have to play as an individual or not… it was more about how I'm part of a group and doing the best I can to be a great part of the group and that requires that you understand your place in the group and you understand the rules that allow the group to function smoothly and then you follow the rules...And so in that kind of a context you know I certainly never saw myself as a leader or a changemaker or you know as anyone who had much power to influence or create change… and it wasn't until after I came to America and you know I started becoming more exposed to a more individualistic mindset and it's more about who are you what are your individual values and what's your individual life mission and purpose and I began to sort of like shift my view and perspective but that was also sort of like when I started to think about like what it takes to create change in a different way and a new way and like in my old context you know the leaders... were the people who told you what to do you listened to them and you did your best to follow what they said… and that's what it meant like you... like if you were the leader you told other people what to do… 

FRANCINE: Yeah… 

SAMIA: And you know you're like no... 

FRANCINE: No and I think leadership is and I've been a leader in corporate too right and so I can't even come out from that perspective to me a leader inspires right first you have to be a leader in your own life… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

FRANCINE: In order for you to inspire others right so I think that's the change maker right being able to inspire others it's not about telling people what to do it's not about controlling what everyone does and there are leaders out there that do that right but that isn't leadership right that's the difference between leadership and management is the controlling piece right management is controlling leader is inspiring right… so that's I think to me I think that's the biggest difference especially if you're in a corporate type environment but just in general leaders inspire they don't... and I do think that you know you talk about you were part of a group but I do think in order to be part of a group you have to know who you are individually first right so that you bring that to the group so I don't know that they're separate I just think that there's in order for you to be part of a group you have to be an individual first… 

SAMIA: Yeah you know that's actually a very interesting idea too because I think it's… I think depending on the culture you are in what you are saying Francine I think works or not because in… your... I think at a fundamental very fundamental level you are absolutely right so for example in our more collectivistic cultural context the way that comes into play is that you know you're never just one group like you're always living in a society where there's multiple groups that you are always a part of so for example in India I was part of my family group was part of the Muslim community group but then I was also an Indian right I was also a student I was also… like I had other identities... and so for example if I come... if I'm interact... if I'm in spaces where different identities of mine are coming into play like for example my Muslim identity and I'm hanging out with non-Muslim people and I don't know who I am as a Muslim then it causes problems right because then I'm like oh my god who am I what do I do how do I act... so I have to know who I am as a Muslim so I can maintain that identity and stay and I in integrity with that identity even as I'm interacting with my larger community group that has many non-Muslims in it… So you're absolutely right… but at another level like my identity as an individual doesn't matter in those contexts for example like even to this day if you talk to my mom who is you know a classically traditional conservative kind of a person you ask her to talk about herself like if you're in a gathering like... we this has happened so many times like I'll take my mom with me to some meeting or event and we'll be introducing ourselves and we'll come to my mom to introduce herself and the way she introduces herself is… I'm Samia's mother and my father did this and my husband does that and... you know like basically everything that she talks about herself is in the context of her different relationships… so it's... 

FRANCINE: So you know I love that you're talking about this I actually run a workshop on who you be right and it's not what you do right and we do as a society when somebody says introduce yourself we go through our to-do list and our checklist of all the things we've accomplished right so being your mom right and it's what we do what I do is I take my clients to what are their values and who do they be… so like my top who I am is fun connection and enthusiasm… so if I'm not connected to someone and it's not fun right so you talked about you have to be you know when you said when I'm with people that are not Muslim I need to be clear in who I am as a Muslim right and that's who you be right and that goes back to your values so it doesn't matter where you are because you're going to bring that to whatever you're doing right and the doing is being the Muslim but who you be is why it's not even an issue for you right so for me I had a zoom with somebody yesterday that I met and she just she gave me a compliment by just like the 30 minutes we were talking just enthusiastic and it's not funny that's not fake and right because that's I really enjoy it now if you had seen me earlier when I was balancing my checkbook right that wasn't as fun because there's nobody involved right it isn't fun and there's no enthusiasm so when you know who you be and you bring that to all that you do it makes such a difference… 

SAMIA: I love that I absolutely love that... so that makes me think about you know again when we're being changemakers and so we're not trying to change anyone else this is a perspective where we're advocating for so you're saying okay okay so be clear on who you are who you're being and be that… so in that context can you tell me more about how you help yourself heal and then how that allows you to create change… 

FRANCINE: Sure I think some of the things there's a couple of things right there's but I think one of the biggest things that I work a lot with my clients on are being vulnerable and creating boundaries because the women that I work with are really women that are doing for everyone else and you know they're not even on their to-do list right they're exhausted they're overwhelmed so it's teaching them how to say no right and to create a boundary and that's a really hard thing to do but when you actually... there's a couple of things when we set boundaries… when we don't set boundaries and we're helping everyone else what we're saying to them is I don't trust that you can do it on your own so when we actually can take a step back and say okay I'm not gonna fix what so and so is doing I'm gonna let them do that or then you're actually giving them the power you're empowering them to do it whether they do it right wrong or indifferent right but you're you're saying to them I trust you and I believe in you and you're also giving yourself the time out that you need right… And then being vulnerable and this is my own hard work right because I do not like this vulnerability thing right and I've been doing this work forever and sometimes it's asking for your needs to be met right like I need this from you… yeah… and that's icky and ugly and can be really uncomfortable and it's also really powerful because we assume people know what we want or need right I mean how many times you have conversations with people well they should have known xyz right well how how would they have known if you didn't tell them right so being able to say hey I was really hurt by what you said the other day or what you did and being okay with the fact that they may not respond approp... you know the way that you want them to respond… they may you know but you've said your piece and you haven't allowed yourself to dwell in the would have coulda should'ves right… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

FRANCINE: So I think those are two really big things that I work a lot with my clients on and sometimes it's simple right... like I had a situation my own exercise somebody asked me for something and I immediately knew what the answer was going to be but I waited to respond right because my normal instinct is... and I do that a lot right like people reach out to me because I am the person that people come to so what my exercise is don't respond immediately right wait an hour even sometimes a day depending upon what it is and if it can wait… 

SAMIA: Yes… 

FRANCINE: But that is my… me creating the boundary for me and not jumping right in and going yes I can fix that yes I have that information yes I have what you need where it's taking a breath… 

SAMIA: Yes oh my god... 

FRANCINE: It's retraining myself is what it's doing… 

SAMIA: Yes yes and that way you're not only doing something good for you giving yourself some room to breathe and so forth but you're actually helping the other person in a much much better way you know I remember this was I think it was one of the doctors or therapists who was helping us figure out how we could best work and help my brother who is… like he has a genetic disorder and because of that you know like his… it's like a neuromuscular degenerative condition so over time you know his muscles are becoming weaker and weaker and you know at this point he's actually wheelchair-bound but even like many years ago when his condition was starting to have a significant impact on his abilities to do things for himself and we were trying to figure out how we could best help him... we were working with different doctors and therapists and I still remember to this day one of them he was like you know you need to let him do things on his own like you'll want to like for example when it comes to eating time and he's trying to serve himself you know you might see he's having some difficulty it might be slow work for him to you know serve himself and all of that but don't immediately jump in and do it for him you need to let him do it for himself because that is how he's going to be able to maintain a certain amount of like ability to continue to do these things for himself and learn new different ways to do things for himself you know because as his muscles become weaker he needs to learn to adjust… and so you have to give him that time and that opportunity and that will allow him to feel more empowered and better about himself because if you just do everything for him that means he's always dependent on you if you're not there then he can't do it... 

FRANCINE: Right and the message you're sending him is I don't believe you can't do it… 

SAMIA: Right it's like actually really harmful for him on multiple levels… 

FRANCINE: Right… 

SAMIA: And so it's like in my brother's case that was like really easy to see and understand for me but I think it was harder for me to apply that same level in other contexts with people who don't have physical disabilities… 

FRANCINE: Right right… well in you know for myself like I have a rescue archetype right I'm the person that people come to and I instantly see a problem and I want to jump in so I've had to learn how to create my own boundaries right because I think as coaches as healers right we do it because we want to help so then we have to learn how to create the boundary right so that we're not constantly giving so much and then depleting ourselves right because then that's what ends up happening is that we end up depleting ourselves and then we really can't be here for all the people that need what we have to offer… 

SAMIA: That's right that's right and also I think from a spiritual perspective it's just a very unwise thing to do… right… because then if you're trying to rescue people you're really trying to control outcomes oh I'm going to control outcomes for what happens in your life… 

FRANCINE: Well I refer to myself as a control freak in recovery and part of my need for control was to feel safe right if I knew that this was gonna happen this way then I felt okay… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

FRANCINE: Right so I wasn't that was some you know that's also some work I do with my clients because it's also work that I've had to do right really trusting that not knowing what's going to happen when you and I end this podcast right and being okay with that… yeah… right and instead of spiraling in the what ifs and oh my gosh now you know what if I didn't say that right what if oh we've got to redo this I said something stupid right… So we have to not... we have to be willing and this goes back to being vulnerable right like not having the control not being in control is also being willing to be vulnerable and just trusting what is and you know that everything's going to be okay no matter what the outcome is… yes oh my gosh you know this just made me think recently I've been watching a lot of Netflix... and I got into watching like all these different superhero shows so I was watching for example the flash...

SAMIA: Okay 

FRANCINE: …I was and also like the legends and a bunch of superhero shows... but one of the things that I noticed as a theme in so many of these superhero shows is like… for example the flash he's like okay I'm the flash I'm responsible for helping people saving people saving the world even right and there are times when despite his best efforts things don't turn out very well... like things go really really wrong…

SAMIA: Right… 

FRANCINE: Sometimes people will die or other massive tragedy... tragedies will happen right and so and then the flash he'll be like noooo…. oh my god you know he like literally feels so like responsible that he couldn't save these people or that other bad thing he couldn't prevent from happening and then you know he's having like this like whole crisis you know where he's feeling inadequate and what's like he's no good and you know and then some other character usually his girlfriend or now she they're married where I am in the series so he'll be like coming in and she'll like try to comfort him and be like you know no no no… don't you… you're not responsible this is not your fault but it's like this theme keeps coming up and it keeps coming up again and again in so many of these shows with so many of these superhero characters where you know they take on all this responsibility and to the extent that they're not able to let go of it… it actually compromises their ability to do their thing because I remember there were a few episodes where you know he was like no I can't… like he literally froze up like he couldn't do what he needed to do because he was like so concerned about the consequences… 

SAMIA: Interesting… 

FRANCINE: Yeah… 

SAMIA: Yeah and you know I ask myself and client the question when something bad you know what we perceive as bad is like how is this the best thing that's ever happened to you right like what are you learning from it... and you know what can you change... whenever I start to get anxious or worried about something you know I look at like can I actually change the outcome and I can't right you know COVID was a big lesson in that for me… in the very beginning one of my closest friends had covid and you know this was back in march of 2020 when we still didn't know a lot and I had been laid off from my corporate job in December before COVID happened so it was scary right and and I didn't know what was going to happen with my husband's job and I was having some anxiety and my friend said to me well what are you worried about I said well I'm worried my friend's going to die and my husband's going to lose his job and she said so what and I was like she's right like there was nothing whether either of those happened... me worrying about what might happen you know my friend ended up being fine and my husband actually got a new and better job in COVID right so like I spent all this time and energy worrying about something that never happened… and that was you know so I bring myself back to that a lot if I'm worried about something and go okay well is there actually anything I can do right and I'm also creating a story… I was creating a story that my friend was gonna die I mean I went through the who's gonna call me how will I know right and then with my husband well what would we do like I was creating a plan for something that actually never happened and that's that's energy that just could be spent… 

FRANCINE: Yeah… 

SAMIA: So much better right so it's question it's bringing yourself back to... is like I really don't have any control over the outcome only my response to what's happening now… 

FRANCINE: Yeah and a certain amount of planning I suppose is not… was helpful like... 

SAMIA: Absolutely… 

FRANCINE: but it's about...

SAMIA: I've got my to-do list of things I need to get done in the day right...

FRANCINE: Right... but it's like for me it's not about oh whether I plan or not for these eventualities that might happen but it's more a question of how is my mental health… am I stressing and worrying about about it or am I doing what needs to be done including in the context of planning but you know staying calm and happy… 

SAMIA: Right… 

FRANCINE: And so forth so nice... so I there was one other really profound thing that you said and I would love to go back to that… 

SAMIA: Yes…

FRANCINE: And talk more about that you said okay I might not quote you exactly but it was something to the effect of... we're not really broken… can you tell me more about that...

SAMIA: Yeah... I mean I don't think any of us are broken right I think you know depending upon what your spiritual beliefs are right I believe we all come here with a purpose right we if you believe in sacred contracts right I believe we all have a contract to be whatever our contract is… and I think it some of us are doing some work on this plane and you know to do this deep spiritual work and it doesn't mean I'm broken it just means I'm un... I call it excavating right like kind of excavating what's inside right and that doesn't mean if somebody isn't doing the work that there's anything wrong with them that's just their journey in this lifetime right just like my journey is to do some consciousness work right but it doesn't mean that you know... and I think even you know... I don't think there's any good or bad right like it just is… and decisions are not right or wrong what we do is not good or bad we put labels on it right based on society rules or our own personal beliefs whatever it is... but if we could recognize that we aren't broken and there is no right or wrong and just accept ourselves and others just because we're all on our own journey and we all have different choices of how we're riding the journey… 

FRANCINE: Yeah…

SAMIA: I think I would like you to give an example... okay so let me give an example first and then I would love for you to give an example to explain… help people understand even better what you're saying... because for so many people they hold this perspective and this belief and this feeling that they are broken... I know for me I used to hold that perspective… I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse and you know I would... you know… I would feel broken like I would feel damaged I would feel like unlovable because I felt so broken and so messed up… it's like if... and that was the fear or the belief the feeling that I had that prevented me from sharing with anyone what had happened to me what I had experienced for like literally two decades… well one decade of complete silence and then I told one person and then took me another decade before I got around to telling my family which was like you know probably the really big breakthrough that I had… but it like took me two decades to get to the point where I was able to tell my mom and my dad that I had survived child sexual abuse and all that… and I held onto that fear of oh my gosh if my mom finds out how ugly things are inside of me she won't be able to love me anymore… it was such a devastating thought and feeling to have you know to think that my mom wouldn't be able to love me because I'm so messed up on the inside... yeah... and I know so many other people now that I work with and who have been through terrible things in their lives and they're holding on to that perspective of you know we're broken… 

FRANCINE: And I do think horrible things happen absolutely… and I think it's how we shift that right so I get that you can feel broken but what I'm saying is I would venture to guess that situation really probably makes you an amazing coach right now too right so I believe... and I guess maybe that's what I'm trying to say is like whatever happens to us has some type of outcome right so as a result of situations that occur that's what helps us in our path… so yes that feeling of brokenness you had to go through that 20 years in order to have that breakthrough I guess if you will right so that you can now be the coach that you are the coach and the healer that you are right...So we do experience horrible things in our lives… but what we decide to do with them so we you know we again I believe in conscious choice we have a choice of so you could have sat your whole life in that feeling but... and there's no judgment over how long it took you because that was part of your process right so then you made the decision of I don't want to feel this way anymore I'm going to start sharing this right …so you knew something inside if you knew you needed to share this and get rid of that belief that your mom was not gonna love you right so yes horrible things happen and we feel broken but I think what we decide to do with our experiences is also what where there's power right so we get to make a choice of how we show up with hard things… 

SAMIA: Yeah yeah I'm with you on that and I think for me it wasn't so much a choice of not wanting to feel broken anymore but it was more that I just couldn't bear it anymore… and that like I just couldn't I couldn't not... like the first person I ever told that was like 10 years some 10 years after I had that traumatic experience… like I literally... I was like if I don't tell someone I'm going to die because I... I've been struggling for all that time to try and help myself and I couldn't… like you know I'd done the best I could and I was still suffering so much… 

FRANCINE: Healing work deep healing work... sometimes you have to get to that breaking point… 

SAMIA: Yeah… 

FRANCINE: In order for it to happen right like you... our sometimes our healing happens when we just can't take the pain anymore… 

SAMIA: Yeah it was like reach out for help and hope that some... that the person I reach out to will help me… right… and it was like because if I don't... then I literally I can't live anymore so yeah like for me it was reaching that point… I wasn't empowered at that time to be like no I don't want to feel like this anymore I don't believe this anymore… I still believed it but I was just desperate enough...

FRANCINE: Right… and I do think that healing comes at a breaking point right like when you just can't handle the pain anymore it's time to start doing the healing and whether it was a conscious thing for you or not but it probably is it what started you on your healing journey… 

SAMIA: Yeah you know I think even before that I was already on the healing journey that's why I think one of the cool things about our humanness about our humanity or the way we work is that as soon as we get hurt our body our mind our heart starts to do whatever it can to begin the healing process and to protect us and keep us safe… and it's just that in the early stages of that healing process one of the the best things my… because I was a kid I was like an eight-year-old kid... one of the best things my brain could do at that time was to disassociate or go into a sense of denial and suppression… 

FRANCINE: Right… 

SAMIA: A lot of the memories and the feelings and so forth... and that was in some… not in yeah that was a part of the healing process… absolutely because at that time that was what protected you… exactly it was the best that I could do like I couldn't cope with the emotions I didn't know how to cope with the emotions or heal them or transform them and so at that time the best that my brain could do to help me heal was to suppress and deny and you know all that but then as I developed the capacity as I grew older then other things could happen you know…

FRANCINE: Nice…

SAMIA: Cool so do you have any last words of wisdom for us to share...

FRANCINE: Ah... last words of wisdom and there's so much right we talked about a lot... but I think the biggest thing is being willing to put yourself first doesn't mean that you're selfish doesn't mean that you don't care about other people… it's actually you know the... I always use the analogy of when you're on the plane and they say put the oxygen mask on you first right it really is about taking care of yourself first in order to be able to help or take care of others right and you know asking for what you need and being okay that you know... you may not get it but being willing to put yourself out there and being vulnerable and setting those boundaries that say sorry you know I can't do lunch today but I'd love to see you in February right and telling people this doesn't work for me… 

SAMIA: I love that I love that and I'm having such a fabulous time chatting with you... I'm so sorry we have to end for the day but yeah I hope you will come back and we can keep chatting...absolutely…So much fun chatting… 

Thank you so much Francine… and for all of our wonderful listeners please know that we are adding Francine's links so you can connect with her in the show notes so please make sure you check out her links click on them connect with her... I'll also have my links in case you want to get in touch with me and until we connect next time I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy…