SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet!

It's really, really good to be today... to be with you today. And I'm just super, super excited right now because I have Kate Horn with me... And you know, we have such an excellent time talking with each other... I can't wait to have our conversation right now and share it with all of you. So please help me welcome Kate... Welcome Kate...

KATE: Thank you Samia, it is so great to chat with you... Yeah, we had like our initial chat to, you know, see if we'd have the chemistry for a podcast… like, we literally got on the conversation on the topic of Christian Jesus versus Muslim Jesus. And it was just like, there's not many people you can have these conversations with, right? 

SAMIA: Indeed, indeed...

KATE: And it… it was just so fun to hear a different perspective on, you know, something that I had grown up, you know, believing...

SAMIA: Yes. And same on my side… like I learned so many new things from you, you know, like in terms of your perspective of Christianity, of Jesus... It was really, really wonderful. I just, just really enjoyed it.

KATE: Yeah, so much fun.

SAMIA: Cool. Cool. So tell us more Kate about who you are and what you do...

KATE: All right, great. So my name is Kate Horn. I have a Facebook group "Women Finding Peace, Purpose, Freedom and Wealth." Because in making yourself the ultimate version of yourself... you attract abundance and more things to you. So what do I do... I love, well first of all... I call myself an Emotional Alchemist… animistic… I love doing like card readings… and the emotional alchemist part… I am certified in emotional intelligence... And it's something I think we should be teaching our children early, how to respond instead of react...

SAMIA: Yes...

KATE: Right? What are your emotions telling you... How to, you know, sit with them and move through them instead of letting them control you. So I'm super passionate about that.

SAMIA: Me too. Me too... I think we can save so much... in the way of like problems and suffering and just bad drama in the world... if we just teach our children how to be more emotionally intelligent, and more emotionally resilient. Because I tell you... like you look at the root of why people are stressed, why people are in conflict with each other, whether it's in, you know, personal relationships, or whether it's even in the broader… broader context of like world wars that are going on... underneath all of that is people who are emotionally struggling... and they need help and they need healing.

KATE: A 100%... We project those emotions onto people… like I tell you probably 95% of the time you'll have a conflict with somebody, it's not really about you, right? It's these bottled-up emotions that just, you know, just shoot off in just these very random ways... So yeah...

SAMIA: Oh my gosh, it just makes me think of… this is one of my favorite... not just sayings… but like bits of life wisdom... you know, that  "hurt people, hurt people"...

KATE: ..people… a 100% Yeah... Yes...

SAMIA: And I recently had a coach who... she gave me a different version of this where she says, "Healed people, heal people."

KATE: Oh I love that. There's always the other side, right? I absolutely love that... And I find we're going through that, you know... The pandemic brought about a lot of us having to sit and really like, deal with our stuff, right... and in a way that it was kind of forced upon us. And a lot of us did do a lot of healing… and we are, you know, paying it forward, and trying to teach what we have learned.

SAMIA: Yes. Indeed, indeed… Talking about people who are hurt, and people who are hurting, and people who are healed, and who are healing... you know, something that really comes to mind, in that context is this idea of boundaries... in the context of our relationships. And when someone's hurt and hurting how they interact with other people, and what that means for how you take care of yourself, you know… Or if you are healed... as if anyone's ever completely healed, no, never... But, you know, in a certain context, and you want to help someone else heal... how do you relate to each other? How do you relate to other people? And what's the role of boundaries? What does it even mean to have… boundaries…?

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KATE: And boundaries are something that, you know, again growing up in a religion that really taught to serve… but maybe not in the healthiest manner, right... Like, to put other people before yourself… So I lived my life doing a lot of that and feeling... yeah, shame and guilt. When somebody asked for my help and I was, you know… and I would say no... right? In fact, I never did say no, because I was not taught that it was okay to say no. So that's something that's new to me in the past couple years because it's something I was never taught. But the one thing I have learned to respect is energy... everybody's energy. And it is something so unique and important to each individual. And being able to protect that energy is really where boundaries come in… Right...

SAMIA: Tell me more... that is such an interesting thing that you just said. So boundaries is really about energy and about protecting our energy… you have to tell me more.

KATE: Okay, so have you ever talked to somebody who just drained your energy… we call them energy vampires... And they don't always know they're doing it. But it's just kind of that negative nelly... that… that person that just, you know, every time you see them, you try to avoid them, because they drain your energy. That's what's going on. And that's where boundaries are important... And so I realized I was avoiding going to social settings because I'm very empathic and I can feel other people's energy... And going to you know, you know, friends for parties and stuff, didn't excite and energize me. When I left I was completely drained, right... So I started to figure out that I was letting other people just suck my energy.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can see that happening. Because, again unfortunately, we are living in a world where the vast majority of people don't ever learn how to manage their emotions...

KATE: Yeah...

SAMIA: … and emotional intelligence and so forth... And so pretty much most of the time when people are talking, most people, you know, even in like social contexts like parties, there's like so much complaining, and like comparing and judging and blaming and shaming going on... that it can be a highly toxic situation. Especially if you're...

KATE: A 100%. 

SAMIA: ...sensitive. Yeah.

KATE: Yeah. So I, you know, I started figuring that out a little bit... And now I'm okay in those settings because of setting boundaries. And there's so many ways you can set boundaries, right. There's physical boundaries, emotional boundaries... boundaries we can set with ourselves. But I think the most important thing is really checking in with yourself and seeing how you feel in certain situations, right... So the cool thing about boundaries is they help you learn so much about yourself, right… You start figuring out what you like and what you don't like, who you like to associate with and who you don't like to associate with.

SAMIA: Can you give some examples of what healthy boundaries look like for you as you began to use them... for example, in that kind of context where you're in social situations and, you know, you don't want to get drained...

KATE: You don't want to get drained... You know, there's an entire social situations, there's a lot of like just small talk to, right, like these just kinds of nonsense conversations that we have. And I found that's what kind of drained me... So just being able to... I don't know, just check in with yourself when you're talking to somebody and see how it feels. And if it doesn't feel good, move on, right? "Hey, I'm gonna go talk to that person over there, I'm gonna go grab some food"... or whatever. But having a game plan really… especially in those bigger social situations... having a game plan, like "Okay, I know I feel this way in these situations, but I kind of want to enjoy being around people, right… I can't be holed up in my house for another two years." So having a game plan of how you're going to deal with it... checking in with yourself about how you're feeling. And you know, I always kind of say, I'm gonna go for 45 minutes, right... I'm gonna go for 45 minutes… if I'm having a good time, I can stay longer. If not, I can leave... But I… like, I had to set boundaries with my mother... I had let my mother just kind of, you know, tell me how to do things for so long. And you know, that kind of gets into this pattern of… and then if you don't do it that way then there's this tension there. So I, a couple times after I learned that boundaries are so important... and I knew she was making me feel a certain way... And this goes both ways too, right... I'm sure I do things to her. But being able to sit down with her and saying, "Oh my gosh, this thing... this way you talk to me makes me feel very small. It makes me feel, you know, less than what I should be feeling about myself." So really having conversations, open conversations with people to let them know… But also again, both ways, being open to that conversation coming your way too… "Hey, Kate… kind of… you told me you were gonna call me back." This was my sister. "You told me you were gonna call me back and you didn't. And it really hurt my feelings..." right. So it's really about open honest conversations.

SAMIA: Yes, yes, I hear you on that... I think that is a problem that I've for sure run into where I've been in the state myself and I've experienced being on the other side of it were… one of the persons is not actually open to receiving the feedback. But they are very much invested in giving feedback. And I know I have for sure been in those states myself... I used to do that a lot. A lot. Especially when I was a teenager, I used to really struggle with boundary issues... I had huge power and control issues. Like, I was terrified of feeling out of control... And so I just tried to be so much in control all the time, in all kinds of little big ways. And a big part of that, for me, was saying what I needed to say and wanting to be heard… But then at the same time not really being open to hearing what other people had to say because, you know, they could say things to me that could trigger feelings that I didn't know how to deal with. So...

KATE: Right… back to we should teach emotional intelligence to our children, right?

SAMIA: Yeah. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I would have, you know, suffered so much less in my life if I had learned the emotional intelligence skills that I have now.

KATE: Yeah, well in another really practical thing that I'm sure everybody has experienced... You know, I tell this story about… it was a Saturday and I was cleaning the house… listening to music… just actually enjoying cleaning the house... And my husband was in a bad mood about something… he had just gotten bad news... Something triggered him and he was just not in the best mood. And you know, people sometimes when they're not in the best mood, they… misery loves company. So they want to find somebody to share in their misery. And he came to me like complaining about something... And I was like… hold on a minute, stop where you are... I'm in a really great place right now… you know, my energy is feeling really good. I'm not taking this on. So go deal with it. And when you've dealt with it, come back and we'll go do something fun together… right. So acknowledging that as well, that "hey, hey, hold on… that's your baggage to carry… not mine."

SAMIA: Yeah.

KATE: Right?

SAMIA: Right. Yes, I am glad that you brought up this example. It's such a cool example... in so many ways actually, that I love to dig deeper… And so one aspect of it is, again going back to that awareness piece of just being aware of how other people's energy is impacting you… how it might impact you based on previous experience. And so just being careful, like you were in this moment, I mean... like, "hey, listening to you right now will bring me down, and I don't want to go there..."

KATE: ..know that!

SAMIA: Right. So having that awareness, first of all… And then expressing that in an empowered, assertive, and yet loving way... I mean, that's amazing. You know, and that's not a skill we always have. I mean, that's where I find a lot of times we get into trouble is that you know, there's a boundary that we want to set. And it is a good boundary to set, you know, that will be good for us certainly, for our mental health, and so forth... But we're not able to express it in the most healthy ways. So, you know, and then there's more... but wait… let's just take a pause right here and dig a little bit deeper about… into this idea of expressing our boundaries in a healthy way... And so, okay… so sometimes you express your boundaries, like you did with your husband, or actually even with your mom... 

KATE: Yeah. 

SAMIA: Earlier, you gave that example... So you did your best to do it in a really respectful, loving way... But what if the person on the other side doesn't receive it as loving and respectful? What happens then?

KATE: Yeah, I'm not sure that he received it that way, right... But he did go and deal with it and then I'm sure we went and had dinner or something together. You know, I think most of the times that we set those boundaries they're not received that well... You know, people don't like to hear constructive feedback of how they are, you know, showing up for you, right... So it's kind of something that takes courage to do. And the more you do it, the more confident you are in it, and it just makes you feel good. So you want to do more of it, right. It's that whole like… I'm in this negative space... but once I go into this positive space, it feels so good... I want more of that goodness... It just, it kind of is what it is. People are going to react the way they're going to react... and that is not on you. So that's another very important part about boundaries, right... Is knowing that how people respond to your boundaries is theirs... 

SAMIA: If someone responds to you in a way that feels negative to you, then what do you do? Like, is there another boundary that you set...

KATE: You can't back down, right. So once you've set that boundary, you can't tear that wall down... You've got to stand your ground. And the people around you who love you will respect your boundaries, right... If people are going to go and try to bulldoze down your boundaries... Yeah, that's a big red flag of reevaluating those situations or those relationships for sure... But yeah, once you set that boundary, once you explain, "hey, you're making me feel this way or that way... I don't like it. I don't like to be talked to you that way." You have to stand your ground, you're going to make people uncomfortable. People are used to… however you've been, right... So it's really hard if you haven't set boundaries in the past, to start setting them. And it's going to be uncomfortable for not only you, but for the people around you... The people who love you will get used to it. They'll start learning to set boundaries with you, right… And it'll be a more mutually friendly relationship right, that each person is getting what they need out of the relationship instead of, you know, just getting mad that this person did this to you but you never expressed that you didn't like that...

SAMIA: Yeah, cool. 

KATE: Yeah. 

SAMIA: And, okay, so... I'll have to come back… I had a thought it was a really important question that formed my mind, and then I lost it. No worries. We'll come back to it if it's… if it comes back...Yeah, so maybe, maybe if I could shift the conversation… still staying on boundaries, but just shifting the conversation, just a tiny, tiny little bit to look at it from a different perspective... So here's the thought that was… and then the question...

KATE: Yeah…

SAMIA: So you're setting boundaries... this was such a beautiful point that you brought up… an important point that you brought up… that if you set a boundary, then you need to sort of honor that… you need to stick to that… which makes me think that it's really important for you to be really careful about what boundaries you set and express in the first place, right...

KATE: Yes! That’s a great, great, great point to bring up... Yes.

SAMIA: Yeah. Because I have experienced this a lot where… I would say something like… someone would ask me a question about something that I was like, "Oh, I don't want to talk about it." And I would actually say that but then they would ask me like a follow up question like, "oh, well, why not? Tell me more? What's going on for you?" And then I would just actually start talking about...

KATE: Right... yeah, yeah, yeah...

SAMIA: ..whatever it was that I said, I didn't want to talk about. And that just… I mean… teaches people to not take your ‘no’ seriously, for example, like if you're saying no to something...

KATE: For sure. 

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah. 

KATE: And no... no's very hard, right... Like, no is a complete sentence. I'm sure you've heard that before. But people like to push, right. People like to push... And it's uncomfortable. When they ask, you know, "hey, you know, I want to talk about this." And you're like, "I don't want to talk about it"... because they want to know how it affects them.

SAMIA: Yeah. Right. Right.

KATE: So they start digging...

SAMIA: Yes, exactly. And I mean, I respect and appreciate that… There is a genuine need there… that the person if they're trying to take more… they may have their own needs that they're trying to fulfill... And but at the same time, again it's like giving other people the same level of consideration that you want for yourself... if there's something that you don't want to talk about in a given moment, you don't want someone to be pushing you in that moment. And so just to be giving that same consideration to someone else who expresses that they don't want to talk about something in the moment. And that doesn't mean that you will never get to talk to them about that issue... maybe can be like, "Hey, okay, all right. I hear you. And can you talk about this later?” You know, like maybe just check in….

KATE: That's a really great point that we talk about in emotional intelligence, right… like being able to respond instead of reacting... So in that situation, "I don't want to talk about this." Maybe the answer is, "Hey, I'm not in a great space right now to talk about this. Can you give me some time and I'll come back to you." So that still gives respect to them that... "Look, I understand that you're looking for answers. I'm just not in a great space. I need to think this over in my head so I can come up with some really..." You know, because you're in the heat of the moment, possibly… And you want to be able to respond intelligently and lovingly... instead of reacting and saying things you don’t mean.

SAMIA: Yeah. And if you say to someone… let's talk about it later... mean that… Because if you really don't want to talk about something with someone forever, then be honest about that, too... Because I actually had that situation exactly where… like, I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse. And the person who abused me happens to be a member of my extended family. And I just… I don't know, at one point, I was, like, still a child… but I made this decision that I never wanted to talk to that person again. And like, to this day, I've actually honored that… I mean... I might change… I've been actually moving towards a place of healing in my life where I've started to imagine the possibility of talking to that person again. But if and when that happens, it's going to be when I feel ready for that… It's not going to be because that's what they want... And, you know, they have made approaches, you know, towards me, where it seems like they want to reconcile or whatever. But I was like, no… I'm not even like… not… I wouldn't even say no… I would just walk away... 

KATE: Yeah.

SAMIA: Because I made that commitment to myself... I was like, I don't ever want to talk to this person again. And you know, like I take that very seriously...

KATE: Well, you know, from what happened to you, you have every right to be the one that sets that boundary... A 100%. But yeah, so it's just you know, I, it's just something so interesting to me, because especially as children, right, our children... I remember just being a kid, and you know, you're with your relatives or whatever... and you're getting ready to leave and your mom's like, give, you know, uncle, so and so a hug and a kiss. And you're like, I don't want to, right. No, you have to… You know, so I feel like our boundaries started getting crossed when we were children… And it's society... It is society of, you know, how my parents were raised, their parents were raised… on and on... But here's the chance to end it. Here's the chance to rebuild what that looks like, for everybody… and respect even the youngest people and their boundaries.

SAMIA: Right. And that makes me think about when you were starting to first share just earlier, right now…

KATE: Yeah…

SAMIA: …when we started talking about this issue, and you gave the example of how you were brought up to not to say no when someone asks you for help, you know... And so, like, literally that's something you were, you were taught. And so what does it look like in terms of healthy boundaries and healthy relationships, where we teach our children and we practice ourselves, you know, the ability to say no... And, like, if someone really needs help, like, they genuinely need help… but for whatever… any reason… you need or want to say no in that moment, like how do you...

KATE: I this just came up at work yesterday...

SAMIA: Yeah.

KATE: I can... I don't want to tell the specifics of it. But I can give you a general idea of how this came… this actually presented itself yesterday. And it's one of my co-workers that actually came to me because she knows that I do this stuff... And she… so she asked me for guidance because she was in this position... This person was in a very bad place… another co-worker… and now she's in management... and this co-worker was going to hurt themselves… and was asking her for guidance… and like you know, I want to talk to you... you're my friend…. I want to talk to you… but I might hurt myself... And she's like I'm not even really friendly with this person. So but I feel obligated because they reached out to me and they're really in a crisis, right... And, you know, diving a little bit deeper... help has been offered to this person, it's been turned down. So what do you do then, right? Like, I am not a professional... I can't help you through this... I can help you find the help that you need. And I think a lot of times, that's more of what happens... It's not that I don't want to help you. I might not be emotionally or physically able to help you. So… being… trying to help them find the help they need… maybe give them a resource... but not let it be dependent on you to provide that emotional support that people a lot of times reach out… And they don't understand, but there's a manipulation that happens as well, right. "We're friends. I need to talk to you. We're friends..." Right. And a line does get crossed when it's like, well, wait a minute, this is way outside of my scope of being able to provide any kind of support for you...

SAMIA: Yeah, and I think in that context we have to maybe take a little bit of a step back and… so we have thought of our boundaries we have laid down our boundaries… but then there's other issues at stake that we also need to pay attention to… such as our own feelings of like, if you feel guilty for saying no to someone… Like for example in this situation, I can imagine that God forbid... this person reached out and they said you know… I feel like I might hurt myself... And you said, I'm out of my league to be able to help you with this... And then God forbid if that person does end up hurting themselves and, you know, they pass away or something like that, you know... how do you… how does that make you feel...

KATE: Yeah.

SAMIA: … but even if nothing truly bad happens to that person, but you still said no in a situation where you felt that other person was in a really difficult place… how does that make you feel... and how do you make peace with yourself in that situation...

KATE: Yeah, that's a really great question… and we did talk about that a little bit... and that's taking on someone else's, you know, emotional baggage. And it's something that we all have done at some point… and it's something you have to come to terms with, right… so that probably will require healing on their part… but really understanding this.. the separate... and I know we're all connected, right… but there is separation that needs to happen between all of us… and you cannot push your baggage onto somebody else that doesn't want to take it. It's just not fair... Yeah, shame and guilt is absolutely going to come up... but also, you know, being honest with yourself that… but I was never equipped to deal with this...

SAMIA: Yes. Okay, okay, that's an excellent point... So I want to dig a lot deeper… and we are starting to run out of time for today...

KATE: Yeah, that's okay...

SAMIA: So I'm thinking… Do you have any last sort of thoughts or bits of wisdom to share with us around how to maybe make this process of setting boundaries, honoring our boundaries, or just dealing with our own feelings of guilt and shame when we set boundaries... How do we put a little bit of ease into it... or maybe even fun...

KATE: You know, and I'm all about having fun… like I try to find fun in every situation… but honestly the easiest way to get started in this... is learning how to say no, right. People ask you for stuff all the time… "Yeah, no, I'm not going to do that." And just being really honest... So think about this… how many times have you accepted an invitation to something you didn't want to go to, right... How many times?

SAMIA: Thankfully, recently, I can't think of an example recently… 

KATE: …because you have a healthy boundaries set, right...

SAMIA: Yeah…

KATE: Or you're still not going out because there's still, you know, a pandemic going on… But I used to do this all the time... I used to just say yes, and then try to find some lame excuse later... Because I'm like now I really don't want to go... So you come up with some bad excuse and the person knows you're making an excuse. So I start… I say no to probably more things than I should… but I think about it this way... if somebody extends me an invitation and I say no, I can always go back and say, "You know what, I've reconsidered and that really sounds like a lot of fun... I'd love to accept if the invitation is still there." So just kind of turning things around that way… not getting back to people as quickly as I used to, right… Like somebody asks you for something... you don't have to respond immediately. We live in this world of like amazon's delivering something to me tomorrow, right, that I just ordered… But it doesn't have to be that way... So really taking your time and checking in with yourself, is just really a great way to start thinking and setting boundaries, right. Take your time...

SAMIA: I love it. And in the context of practicing saying no… like, turn it into a game... collect no's. Just, like, go out and say no to lots of people, for lots of things… that you really mean and want to say no to… and practice collecting no's... I remember I went to a training one time with one of my coaches and they put me on this mission to go and collect no's... And they were like, your mission is to collect at least 10 no's before the next day. So, you know, it was the end of the day, and it was… we were going to continue at the conference the next day… and they were like that's your homework for tonight... 

KATE: That’s awesome… 

SAMIA: …Between now and tomorrow morning you have to collect at least 10 no's... It was the most fun... the most fun I had in that conference… I mean we learned lots of amazing things… but that was one of the most important lessons I learned, and also one of the most fun exercises that I did to learn that lesson...

KATE: Yeah, that's great. And we all feel guilt and shame… but the more that you can create these boundaries, the less you'll feel guilt and shame because some confidence starts blooming... and you start understanding yourself so much better. So that's what I will leave you with, that's why it's really great to set healthy boundaries... you can get to know yourself so much better… Thank you, thank you so much Kate... and…

SAMIA: Yeah...

SAMIA: …for sure we'll have to bring you back because for sure we have so much more to talk about... And for those of you listening or watching this interview, this episode... please make sure you check the show notes because we're going to add Kate's links in there... I'm going to add my links in there… so you can get in touch with us and reach out for the help and support that you need… And with that, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy until we connect next time… :)