SAMIA: Yes, yes. I love it, I love it. You know, because the truth of the matter is that everything in our world, even I would say, in our universe, is made such that everything's actually interconnected and interdependent. And the more we can sort of recognize what those points of interconnection and interdependence are, the more we can live in ways that are in alignment with the nature of reality as it were. And more in alignment you are, the more easy you make your life because then you're not struggling against how things are, you know, you can just sort of know...

SAMIA: Yeah.

LILLIAN: I love this... Deepak Chopra, one of his like... Seven Spiritual Laws of Success is, I can't remember which one it is, but it's like the Law of Least Effort or Least Resistance. And for me it's not about being lazy or not doing the work that you need to do. Because you definitely have to take action and do the work that you need to do to achieve results... But for me that's about like... it's about finding what your calling is and uncovering the art of allowing to speak. So it's like you're being pulled in a direction by your calling, or by your passions, or by your joys, and it's about allowing that process to unfold rather than always trying to like fight and drive and strive for what you have to do... It's like, no, no, if we just stop stressing, relax, and allow the things to unfold naturally by pursuing what we love and by pursuing our passions and our joys then things flow easily.

SAMIA: Exactly. I love the analogy of flow because, especially if you think about it in the context of interacting with water when it's flowing, you know, if you are... if you have any kind of experience for example boating or swimming in a flowing river, or even the ocean I suppose for that matter, if there is a current in the in the body of water, if you try to go against the current... I mean, you are just setting yourself up for a really difficult, tough, battle.

LILLIAN: Yeah and that's why so many of us burnout...

SAMIA: Yeah.

LILLIAN: Because we're always trying to go against the grain, or we're trying to, like, always fight for what we need or push or... it's always a challenge or a struggle, you know... we're always in hustle mode, you know.

SAMIA: Yes. Like, no... let's just recognize the current is there, recognize the direction it's flowing, and then, you know, you can actually work with it to reach where you're going. You don't have to give up where you're going... just work, like, with the current and how it flows... that way you can get to where you're going much more easily.

LILLIAN: Yeah, exactly! And I think there's an important piece of that part of the conversation is, it's also not about letting go of your individuality, it's not about like succumbing to the masses, it's not about... yeah, it's not about letting go of your uniqueness of who you are... it's about finding and uncovering that uniqueness and then working with what you've got like you said, or working in alignment with the flow, you know. So you definitely don't have to like sacrifice your uniqueness and your individuality especially as creatives then and healers and therapists, you know.

SAMIA: Oh! I love that you brought that up because, oh my gosh, that is such an important point, this is such an important point. Because so often, especially when we're thinking about this kind of work with creatives, but not just with creatives like you said, also with healers or with anyone for that matter who's trying to do something that's different from, you know, what the dominant culture is doing... we're told, "No, no. If you try to do something different you will fail, you know... don't do that, go do what is already being done". And I mean that works up to a certain point, that advice can work up to a certain point. But oftentimes, you know, it just lands us in more trouble in terms of, we're not able to do what we're really passionate about, we're not able to live a life that we really love... and it sets us up for a different kind of struggle then. <

LILLIAN: Yeah exactly! And something that I realized on my journey of, I guess, self-discovery and self-empowerment, was that... like I had always... I'd often seen myself as like an activist or someone who wanted to make ripples and make radical change, you know. And so I would often, like, see myself as like the outlier, like out there on the frontiers, like kind of separate from the masses, or you know like out there on the edges and on the frontiers. And there would... it was always like I was standing from a place of being always trying to, like, prove my point, or trying to change people's minds. Whereas I had this big epiphany and I had this realization that actually what I was doing there was alienating myself and other people because it was always this confrontation. It was always like, what you're doing is wrong, what I'm doing is right, so you have to change, right... But now it comes more from a place of a real sense of self-confidence and integrity in who I am. And it's like, I know what works for me and I'm going to do what works for me because I know that that's my calling. And now I can stand in being a role model for people, and that connects people. I can now shift my language in a way that lands on the listening of my clients or the people that I'm working with. And there's like a collaboration there, and a listening, you know, rather than always trying to have the rebuttal or try to prove my point, you know. And that was a real massive shift for me in really stepping into ownership of my story and who I am, and letting go of my attachment to trying to prove my point, you know. And that was a huge, big shift for me, you know. And yeah, that's one of the things I think for these people who want to, like, make change in the world, or make a real impact and a difference, is stop alienating yourself... You can like... you... like in the analogy of the river, it's like you can go with the flow. And then like to continue that analogy, sometimes you have these little bits of water that go out on there on their own and seek the new maps, or the new terrain, or the new... yeah, the new terrain... But they're still connected, they're still part of the same body of water. It's like you have to be part of the system in order to affect change. Because if we're always out there on the edges, and those people are important as well, and sometimes you have to have those ones, that are like, that are showing us kind of how not to do it, or you know, how to make these real radical changes, you need those people out there on the frontiers… But also, if we're coming always from a place of this separation and point of difference, we alienate ourselves and then we can't really affect any real change.

SAMIA: It's like, even if you're standing at the edge, you are still a part of that same landscape, you know, actually... And so you are in fact still connected with everything else in that landscape no matter your precise position. And so to recognize that you are still connected, to recognize all the different ways that you're connected, and then really continue to do what you need to do from that point of recognition... because you value that connection, like, you know, you value being a part of the whole.

LILLIAN: Yeah, exactly! And that's the holistic approach.

SAMIA: Yeah.

LILLIAN: This... and an integrated approach is like this interconnectivity like you say. It's like we have our unique role. And that's important, and to honor and to recognize that, that's part, a valued part, of the larger whole, you know... Yeah, that's been a really empowering mindset shift for me.

SAMIA: Awesome, awesome, I love it! I actually call that creating change with love. Even my book on “Make Change Fun and Easy”... because if you want to make change fun and easy, it's so important to create change with love, to do it in a more holistic integrated way... oh my gosh, I love it! Thank you so much for bringing that up. So, okay, so one of the things that I really wanted to get your perspective on... you already started talking about it earlier a little bit, like, how do you help people bring out their creativity? How can I bring out my creativity more? Because being able to access my creativity, you know, is such a huge aspect of how I can become a more effective changemaker. Because it allows me to come up with better solutions, new solutions, to problems that have been ongoing for so long. So clearly, the things we have tried so far are not working, and so we need to come up with new creative solutions... so how do we tap into our creativity?

LILLIAN: Yeah, absolutely. It's such a... such an interesting question. Because often what I see is there's a big misconception between creativity and art... and often people think that creativity means making art. And it doesn't. I mean, it is and it can obviously. But that's not only what creativity is. And so I think there's two components to how I want to answer this. And the first thing is, I think that a lot of us are walking around as repressed artists where... or as blocked artists, where we're actually extremely creative and extremely artistic in different ways, but we've learned to repress that. Because our society at large doesn't really value the arts as a kind of way to make money, as a valid form of making a career. I mean unless you grow up in a very creative, artistic family or community, at large we don't really value that. We often hear rhetoric thrown around like, "Go and get a real job". Or like, "Oh! You're always going to be a struggling artist", you know... So I think the first, the first element of that is recognizing and honoring that we all are artistic in various ways. And that often we've created this self-program, and this self-limiting belief that, that we're not, that we're not artists. And then the second part of that question also... just first, and just to elaborate on that a little bit... so part of that is about uncovering and finding our passion and our joy as artists, and releasing the blocks, and letting go of these fears and limiting programs and limiting self beliefs, that have been holding us back. And then the second part of that is also this next component, that is like, we're all creative, and you don't have to be artistic to be creative. And it's about finding what works for you, finding the modality that works for you. Because we all have different learning styles as well. So some may be very visual learners, some may be very auditory learners, and some may be kinesthetic learners. So it's about connecting in with what really resonates with you and finding something that you can really connect with, and express your authenticity in a way that is in alignment with your creative self-expression. So for example, someone who is maybe more of a visual learner might not really resonate with doing something like dance as a creative practice. Whereas someone who is an auditory or kinesthetic learner might love dance because they've got the music component and they've got their body and embodied component. So the other element is really finding what works for you. Because there's so many incredible modalities and processes you can do, and that's the beauty of it. And that's why I kind of identify as a polymath because I'm just like what can I do next you know. Like what's the next modality, or what's the next creative exploration, or the next process that we can connect with?

SAMIA: Yes, oh my gosh! That... I love the distinction that you drew between being creative and being artistic. And then the fact that even if you're wanting to tap into your artistic side, there are so many options for how you can tap into that. There's so many different modalities and expressions of being artistic. And actually when you were talking about being creative, it actually made me think of this really awesome Indian movie... that's one of my all-time favorite Indian movies. And for people who can understand Hindi, the movie is called Munna Bhai Lage Raho. And basically the plot line in it is that there is this gangster fellow... like he's the big boss of, like, this big gang in a city in India. And he falls in love with this radio show host who is a big fan of Mahatma Gandhi, you know, who was the one of the founding fathers of modern India, and you know, is known for non-violence and how he used non-violence as his strategy to get Indian independence from the British...

LILLIAN: An incredible role model as an activist.

SAMIA: Yes indeed! And so in order to impress this girl, this gangster fellow whose name is Munna, he pretends to be a historian who's an expert on Gandhiji. And so this lady is like "Oh really! Why don't you come on my radio show and talk about... talk about Gandhiji and how he created awesome change using non-violence". And so he's like, "Oh my God! What?! I have to show up and do an actual show? How am I going to make that happen?!" So he decides to go and just sort of really binge for, like, I don't know how many days, and read up everything and memorize everything that he can about Gandhiji and how he worked, and so forth. And a very interesting thing happens... he starts to actually see Gandhiji. Like Gandhiji actually begins to appear to him and talk to him and speak to him. And so when he goes on the radio show people start asking him questions about "Hey! We're having this problem, how can we solve it with non-violence, and I'm having this problem, how can I solve it with non-violence?" And so he just talks to Gandhiji... the...the… I should not give away the whole plot line... but basically he talks to Gandhiji, and Gandhiji gives him all kinds of brilliant, innovative, creative solutions. A lot of them are very humorous actually. And so many people find their life is transforming, and they're able to solve their problems with more ease and without getting into fights and conflicts, and so forth. And it just made me think about, you know, like this is a kind of creativity also. Like especially, you know, like, how can you solve... So maybe you might not be artistically creative, but maybe you're a hugely creative problem solver. Or you can become one. You can train yourself to think more creatively about how to solve your problems.

LILLIAN: Totally! I often say, or often I think to myself, I think some of the most creative people are actually scientists... because their way of thinking is in a model of, like, what else is there... out there? It's like a constant state of inquiry, or a constant state of… curiosity, you know. I love this, like, when you're curious you discover things. When you ask questions, you discover things and you learn and you grow, you know. So if we're always constantly in this, like this... this is the framework, this is the box of which... in which I work, and nothing else can go outside of this box or this framework… then of course you're going to continue to be stuck and continue to face these barriers and these walls. But once you just learn to like maybe step outside the box, or you know like, I can't remember... there's this metaphor or an analogy of... I can't remember... if I'm gonna... I might not say this very correctly, but it was, it's basically this story of a person who's... they're on like a, they're on an island or something, and there's a wall in front of them. And they can’t see the other side. And they're like trying to build all these ladders, or trying to find the doors, or whatever, and they can't... They keep trying the same things over and over, and they can't quite get to being able to, like, get to the other side or look across. And then at some point, they realize the wall just ends and they can walk around, you know. Like that, at some point there's just... the wall finishes. And then they see that oh, the wall ends and now I can just walk around and get to see the view of what I was trying to see. So it's like there's always something different that you can try to solve a problem or to reach your goals. And yeah, I mean, people would have always heard this idea... if you keep constantly trying the same thing, you're always going to get the same result, obviously, you know. And so yeah, creativity is definitely problem solving. And this idea of curiosity and inquiry is a huge part of that.

SAMIA: And experimentation, right.

LILLIAN: Exactly.

SAMIA: Part of the scientific process, but also of the creative process, and even the artistic process... You, like, experiment with things, see what works, what doesn't and move ahead accordingly.

LILLIAN: Exactly! And through that process of experimentation, like you said, you figure out what works and what doesn't work. Like say for example, if you have an idea of an image that you like to create, for example like a painting or a drawing, and you try to make the drawing, and you do it one way, and then you do it in... and often in like creative, in the creative industries, they talk about doing process... So like doing the same type of process over and over again and see what results come up. And then based on what you see in front of you, you can then pick and choose what you like and then replicate that particular one. So if, you know, you did that particular process to... and then this image came up out of that process, you can say, "Oh I like that, that worked for me... I'm going to choose that one"... And that gives you power, that gives you agency. When you experiment, and you're exploring, and you're discovering, then you can choose your path… and rather than the path sort of just being presented in front of you without any kind of, like, consciousness or agency in choosing your path, you know.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah! I agree. And so in this process how important is it to have an attitude of play and having fun?

LILLIAN: Oh my gosh, so important! Like the most integral thing, you know. And you know this, because this is what you write about. You know, when we play, we become like a child again. And I think the beauty of children is their ability to be non-attached, you know, and non-attached to what they're discovering. You know often what we do as adults is we project our own egos onto what we're doing. So like say for example in the process of making an art piece, we may make a whole bunch of wonderful art. But then based on what our ego says we may, like, disregard, you know, a bunch of what we've just made. But who are we to say that somebody else might like that or might not like that, you know. And so I think when we come back to this state of play, there's a presence of non-attachment... and it's like, and then it's just like this again... we come back to curiosity and it's like this discovery and it's like magic making or something... I always, I often come back to this like magic, you know. I think it's, yeah... and you know, that's, you know, creativity... That's why I think, you know, spirituality is so intertwined with creative processes because we're literally making magic, you know. Even they use the word craft in magic terminology as a way... like we are literally crafting our magic. And so that's inherently creative. And so, yeah, when we play, where we're discovering and we're innocent, there's no, there's no ego involved, there's no filters... it's just pure discovery. And there's I think that idea of being non-attached... is a huge part of what we can access when we're playing.

SAMIA: Yeah. What would you say is like a big obstacle in people's way to being able to have more fun, to have more of this playful attitude? And what can they do about it?

LILLIAN: I see a lot of... particularly with creative clients that I work with, is, I see a lot of negative self belief which is like coming from, stemming of unworthiness, or like they're not enough, or like their work is not good enough, they're not talented enough… And I think that comes from this programming that we have at large within our society that says, that doesn't really value the arts as something that we can do to make a living or make a career out of. So at some stage we have to kind of get out of our own way. And that's really hard for people because we've built up these beliefs over years and years and years. And you know at the beginning, when we were young, it might have been someone else telling us, you know, "Put that away" you know, "Put that paintbrush away, you'll never be happy doing that”. Or, “you'll never be successful doing that", you know. Or maybe someone was singing... I think for me, I've got a lot of blocks surrounding singing because I think I had an experience when I was young where I performed on stage singing, and it was awful. And I had all these like people you know... I felt so insecure and embarrassed. So then it may have been someone putting that on to me in the beginning. But then what happens, especially when we're children, is we learn to believe that about ourselves. So then we don't even have to have anybody else out there telling it to us, we tell it to ourselves.

SAMIA: Right.

LILLIAN: And once that becomes ingrained into our programming that is so difficult to let go of. So there are different processes that you can do, like different techniques, like meditation, and mantras, and different types of neuro-linguistic programming, and different... there are lots of different, like, processes that we can do to decode our programming. And a friend of mine who's an incredible dancer and artist and creator and life coach, what he does is he, through mapping our embodied shapes... so, because he works a lot with dance and embodiment… what we can do is we can start to decode our neural pathways. So by moving our body in a different way than what we would normally do, we're rewiring our brain and our neural pathways. And we can do that through simple processes like maybe when you clean your teeth, have you ever noticed that you clean your teeth with the same hand every day....? So a simple way to remap your neural pathway is to just change the hand that you use. And that's like a very simple thing, but then you can start to extrapolate that out. Because the more and more little bite-sized bits of action and things that you can take to decode your neural pathways, the bigger and bigger it gets. So say for example, maybe the first day you do one to five little actions. And then the next day you do five to ten little actions. And it just starts to build and build and build until we have way more sense of agency and consciousness in how we operate day to day. And it really comes down to our daily habits, and our daily rituals, and our daily practices. But there are little things like that, just simple things that you can do. Like if you've never done something, go and try something new for the first time. Because then you're learning and you're remapping your brain pathways. And then you can learn to break free of certain behaviors or patterns or modes of being that don't really serve you, you know.

SAMIA: Yes! I love that, I love that. And I love the idea of trying something new... like you don't, you don't have to do something huge, but it could be like a small thing... but try something new. And do it with this mindset of you're just playing, you're just having fun, you're just experimenting. So when you give yourself that permission then you can have a lot of fun and also just create, begin to create massive change over time in your life and deepen your creativity too.

LILLIAN: Yeah absolutely! One of the first things that I often do with my clients is... and this comes from the book called "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron, I think, her name is... have you heard of that? It's a very famous book. Basically it helps artists to release from their blocks and really step into alignment with the full embodiment of who they are as their artistic selves. And one of the things, one of the activities that she does in the book is create, like, a list of five to ten imaginary lives of, like, different professions or careers or things that you would love to just experience for a day. Like some of mine are like I'd love to be like a tv host for a day, just to like just to see what it would be like, you know. Or I'd love to be a professional dancer for a day, or I'd love to travel around to festivals and perform at festivals, and do, like, be a speaker, you know. I'd love to do a TEDx talk one day right... to be someone who speaks on stage in front of thousands of people. And so you just create like a simple list of like five to ten imaginary lives that you just like to try for a day. And then she takes it one step further and she's like okay, so if you'd like to try one of those things for a day, do something this week that takes you one step further towards embodying that reality, or towards taking a step closer to that activity, or to that career. Like maybe if I want to like imagine like traveling to festivals being a performer, maybe I might like go and do a dance class this week, or maybe I might go and have a look at what are some of the festivals in my area that I could apply for, you know... like these types of things. It's where... it's like, get yourself out of your comfort zone a little bit, you know. Feel a little bit of the discomfort so that you can grow and learn, but actually take an action step towards living the dream that you want to live, you know.

SAMIA: Oh my God!

LILLIAN: Because I think a lot of people don't think it's possible.

SAMIA: Yes.

LILLIAN: And we become resigned and apathetic and complacent. We sort of just tell ourselves that that's the way life is and then we just go about our routine or our day-to-day business. And it's like, well no, like you can strive to go towards that.

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah.

LILLIAN: That is so awesome, that's so awesome! It actually makes me think of an exercise that I learned from one of my coaches and that I love to use with my clients too. And that's an envisioning exercise, or that's how we start... We say, "Okay, imagine it's 30 years later and you're living the life of your dreams, you could be doing anything you want and everything that you love, you know, because money is not an issue anymore. You're in good health, you know, so you can do anything you want... So in this scenario what do you see yourself doing? Like, just... you wake up, and what do you see? And then what do you do?" ...You know and people will write and sometimes just speak their vision. And then we're like, "Okay, next step. What parts of this could you actually do right now, make happen right now?" And the amazing thing is that there's so much of the things that we dream about that we can actually do if not in whole, at least in part, right now.

SAMIA: Yeah, exactly. And I think a big piece of that is breaking things down into smaller steps, or like you know, we chunk things. Sometimes when we've got this big grand goal and a grand vision, that's like, seems so far out there in the future, often it can be overwhelming because it seems so unattainable... But then if we can, and there are different, like, tools and methodologies that we can use, like project management and action planning, where we can start to chunk down the action steps that we need to take into like little bite-sized chunks, and that makes it more achievable. Because then you know, okay, I've got to do this one thing today rather than all of this, like, ginormous mountain of things that seems unattainable. And that's super empowering for people because then they also see the progress. And it's like, "Yes! I achieved this thing today and now I'm working towards my goal".

LILLIAN: Yeah! And the cool thing about, you know, tapping into your creative and artistic skills and practicing them is that this strategy of chunking down and being able to then see your progress over time, it's so viscerally there, so visibly there, when you're working on something creative, on something artistic. Because a masterpiece of art does not get created in one stroke, or a day...

SAMIA: Exactly!

LILLIAN: You know, you build it a little bit, little bit, little bit at a time. So you can actually learn to hone the skill of chunking things down and managing how you grow something over time into, like, something really beautiful and amazing, by practicing your artistic and creative skills.

SAMIA: Yeah, absolutely.

LILLIAN: And there is also, like, some really tangible benefits to that as well... like there's some research that shows that when we tick something off our to-do list, we get a hit of dopamine and serotonin in our brain. So there's like, there's actual, like, tangible positive benefits that are happening when we do things like that, you know. Like just little ways that we can create more of a positive mindset, you know. It's like if you're feeling like really sh*t in your body, for example... it's like, go and do some exercise. And I'm not saying that, that might be the solution to getting well completely. But that's gonna give your body a boost of endorphins, a boost of serotonin, that's gonna help you to get towards feeling more positive, you know. So it's like little things like that, it's all holistic. It's like if you're feeling low in energy, go for a run, you know. Because that's going to boost your energy levels and give you a literal neurochemical hit of positive hormones and chemicals in your body, you know. So then your mindset shifts as well.

SAMIA: Right, I love it, I love it. And, oh man, Lillian! I don't want to stop talking with you right now, but we do have to begin to wrap up for today. Are there any last pearls of wisdom you want to share with us?

LILLIAN: I think probably the biggest takeaway that I can give is like just trust yourself. And like that's part of what cultivating intuition is about... is like learning to trust your body, and listen to your body, and listen to your heart, and trust that you're on the path that you need to take to reach your goals. Because so often we think we're doing things wrong. Or, like, even when we, like, we think we've done something wrong, or we've made a mistake, and we feel like we have to backtrack and then go in a new direction... even that is a kind of part of our path that we had to go on in order to make that mistake so that we could learn. But that's not how you do it, you know what I mean? So then you go in a different direction. So even like those seemingly, like, big mistakes that we make, it's like no, no, that's still all part of it. So learn to trust in the process. And I guess that's one of the really big things in creative therapeutic processes... it’s like, it's not about the outcome, it's about the process.

SAMIA: Yeah.

LILLIAN: It's not about how beautiful your artwork looks in the end. It's about that process of literally putting paint to paper, or pen to paper, or the process of feeling your body in movement, or you know, whatever is the process that you're doing... It's about what is, what are you experiencing in that present moment, and then learning to listen to that, learning to really trust and have faith in yourself. (I'm sorry if you guys can hear that there's some kind of motorbike or something out there). Yeah, that's the biggest thing... is trust yourself, learn to trust your inner voice and your intuition. Not the inner voice that's like on chatter mode and that's on like, "No, you shouldn't do this, you should do that". But that deeper inner voice that is you. And that's what we can really tap into and connect with when we go into those deeper states of creative flow or meditation. And that kind of like unwavering, unconditional love for ourselves, that happens when we can trust that we're on the right path.

SAMIA: Oh, my gosh! That's wonderful, that's wonderful! Yes please, all of our... if you're listening to this, if you're watching this. Please, if you find yourself struggling with tapping into this creative side of you, your artistic side of you, your intuitiveness... and you want to stop or ease that struggle... please, get some help. Reach out to Lillian. And she's gonna be so brilliant at helping you with that. You can also reach out to me. Reach out to anyone else if you don't wanna reach out to us. But please, please, do this for yourself. And yeah, just do this for yourself. And I wish you all the very best in that process. And thank you again Lillian for being here with us today.

LILLIAN: Thank you so much for having me, it's been a pleasure :)

SAMIA: Yeah! All right, take care everyone :)

LILLIAN: Ciao!