SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet!It's really really good to be with you again. And we have a very special guest that I'm so excited and happy is joining us today... It's Ruth Sharone who's the creator of “Interfaith: The Musical”. Welcome Ruth...

RUTH: Welcome... to you. 

SAMIA: Thank you so much… you know, I must say Ruth I'm extra-extra excited to have you here because well... I don't know how long it's been since I've known you… at least a good 20 years. And actually you were one of my grandmother's best friends… And so I have extra-extra love for you, other than you know whatever my relationship with you is, I just have extra love for you because of that.

RUTH: Thank you, it's mutual...  It's mutual Samia.

SAMIA: Yes... and you know one of the reasons that you connected with my grandmother and then I got introduced to you and got to know you is because you are so active in the interfaith community. And you have been like dedicating your life to interfaith work and interfaith engagement... And I am so excited that we're going to talk a little bit about today… how we can make interfaith engagement, interfaith dialogue and just interfaith in general  more fun and easy... 

RUTH: I remember about maybe 25 years ago before I was in the Muslim-Jewish women's dialogue group that you were speaking of with your grandmother Bibi... beloved Bibi Haleem... I had formed another group that was called Open Door LA and we met for the first time with the sheriff... the man who was sheriff at the time of Los Angeles, who was also very engaged in interfaith work around the city. He would show up to all the different faith communities and lend his support… And when we asked him to be on our board and he agreed, and then we said… do you have any advice for us... And he said... be curious and no matter what you do remember to have fun... And that seems such an odd comment coming from the sheriff of Los Angeles right. But I think that is actually one of the keys to enjoying interfaith engagement and not having it be so daunting. Because it can be very daunting especially when you encounter people who not only have different beliefs than you do and different practices than you do but have attitudes towards you which may not be so friendly... And that is something that you need to overcome if you're going to dialogue and eventually establish trust and have friendship and relationship. But so if you can remember the fun part… and I think that I tend to go to humor all the time when I'm with people because I find that’s a great... It's an icebreaker and a ground breaker. And it's a way to immediately create... bubbles of joy... and the laughter... and that… just laughter itself is… I would say probably one of the most important sound… sounds… that we can create or apprehend or use to enable this work of building relationship with people that are… we think are so much unlike us, but in truth are not... And you know laughter is universal.

SAMIA: Yes...

RUTH: Smiles are universal... I remember being in Belgium. I was trying to buy a car in French... which I didn't know very well... And I was in the car with two little girls... And for half an hour we played peek-a-boo and games and just laughed. And that was our language. And we totally understood one another. I knew exactly what they were doing... they knew what I was doing. They appreciated me... I appreciated them.  And they were… I didn't know... Dutch… so I couldn't speak the language of their country. They didn't know my language, but we understood one another.

SAMIA: Yes... yes… I so agree with you... I'm a little bit curious Ruth… because you've been engaged in interfaith for so long... What motivated you to get started in interfaith… And like what would you say is really important about it... Like why interfaith…?

AD HERE

RUTH: Well... in the year… in the early 90's... I actually am a filmmaker... a documentary filmmaker and a writer. That's actually how I spent most of my adult life, making films and writing... And I had this crazy wild idea that I was going to organize a Seder for Passover, for the Jewish holiday... the day marking the liberation of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt… 3,500 years ago. And I decided to invite a lot of people to the Seder who weren't Jewish... Because I had Christian friends primarily at the time… I didn't know that many Muslims… that was in the 80's... I didn't know that many Muslims yet... And there were people who really they wanted to come to the Seder...  And So I decided to make it a creative event... and a fun event... And then we had games for children and we enacted the play of the exodus… the story of the exodus. And we had people playing their musical instruments. And then at the part of the story where we told about how the Israelites were liberated, I asked people who were there to share their own story of liberation... Because as I said then, at the time, I still believe… what's universal about the holiday of Passover is that it deals with our liberation... not just as Jews but as human beings from whatever pharaoh or whatever oppressor we are experiencing at the moment. So it can be emotional liberation... It can be economic... It can be sexual... It can be cultural... It can be psychological. There are so many different kinds of liberation… and every year we go through a different phase of liberation. And so it doesn't really matter how you address God, or if you believe in God… people can sit around a table… I call it the table of humanity... and share the human story of our struggle... And so that… there were 85 people at that Seder. I had to find a room to rent and I had to have it catered… more and more people said we want to come... we want to come. And then I had it filmed because I'm a filmmaker… I thought well... I'll never do this again... Little did I know... But anyway, so... when I looked at the footage afterwards... I thought I'll bet there are a lot of stories of Passover, of personal liberation out there… I'm gonna find them... And the moment I said that… you know heaven listens to us... and so people started dropping out of the woodwork and out of the skies, with the most amazing stories of personal liberation… of an Ethiopian Jew who was trying to escape to Israel and was caught and taken into prison. And he had to spend Passover in prison, and his jailer was Muslim… And when Passover was coming he asked his jailer who supposedly hated him and considered him an enemy... if he could help get Matzah so they could eat the unleavened bread during the holiday Passover. And the Muslim jailer said to him... Why should I do that... and the Ethiopian Jew said to him… Because we both believe in God... we both believe in Allah... And the jailer thought about it. And he ended up organizing five Muslim women who prepared matzahs for the Jews who were in prison... So that was one of the stories that I heard and I documented. I interviewed the person who was involved with that. And then all these different communities that weren't Jewish that were celebrating Passover… the catholic workers… and then a black pastor who had been celebrating Passover for six years with 600 African Americans… And so I met him and then he invited me to their Seder... And at that Seder there was a black woman, a minister who I did not know at the time... but later I was invited to the church to speak. Then the pastor wanted to commend me for my activity of conciliation, of bringing people together... and he asked me to speak to the congregants. And when I got up to the pulpit I had no idea what I was going to say... and the first words that came out of my mouth were... I have a dream... like Martin Luther King said in Washington in his famous speech... I have a dream speech... And when I said that the congregation shouted out... Tell it sister... tell it. And I went into a reverie and I started saying that I see I have a vision before me... And I see it's near Mount Sinai... And I see people from all over the world sitting together... and celebrating freedom together. And I see in the background Sadat who had been president of Egypt… he had been assassinated for trying to create peace. I see him smiling and happy because he wanted to build a cathedral for Muslims Christians and Jews on Mount Sinai to commemorate the fact that he thought that people should be able to come together in prayer as well... And then I said… and I have this... I have an idea that there's a child in Japan that is participating and asks one of the four questions of Passover… why is this night different from all other nights? And that someone in Hawaii would answer that question... I said… I could just see us all being connected together. And then as I was telling this story the audience was getting more and more excited... and they were you know as in black churches they're very very responsive... It's almost like call and answer. So I would say something and they would say... "Yes, that's it sister. You're getting home now, that's it. Take it in... take it in… and take it home". And so finally... I just… I finished my vision… explaining my vision... And when it was over I was a little bit stunned because I didn't even remember what I had said… I just remember I had been caught up in the moment... and the whole congregation was caught up with me… and... a beautiful black woman came up to me and she said... How many people do you think you'll have going on that trip... And I said… what? And she said.. You know the one to the Middle East… with all the people from the different faiths. And I said.. I don't know... And then she said… Do you think you'll have anybody coming from Philadelphia? And I was just so thrown off by her questions... And I said.. I don't know, but it was a vision... it was an idea… let's talk about it. So we exchanged phone numbers and a few weeks later... I know this is a long-winded story but I'm getting to answer your question… how did this all start... And… she came to my house for a Shabbat dinner on a Friday night. And then we talked about… maybe we should organize a pilgrimage to the Middle East... and it would be a peace pilgrimage… And it would include people from all different faiths. And we would retrace the steps of exodus... and we would go through the Sinai desert and then we'd come to Jerusalem. And in Jerusalem we would have a universal freedom Seder for Passover, and we would celebrate Easter with the Christian pilgrims... and we would invite Palestinians… and we would have this amazing celebration together... And right after we were talking about this... she started kind of pounding her chest... And she looked like she was having a heart attack… and two other friends were present. We were all concerned. Her name was Dolores Gray... And we said… Dolores are you okay? And she said... I can't believe this... I can't believe this… I received three prophecies from three different ministers and they all told me the same thing… that one day I would be leading the most unusual trips to the MIddle East and it would include African Americans and Jews… 

SAMIA: Wow… 

RUTH: And it was one of those you know... moments from the twilight zone.. Because we sort of understood that we had been brought together for a purpose. And that the prophecies she had received were about to come true. And so we went to Egypt and Israel on a reconnaissance trip to be able to plan this... And then we created the first peace… interfaith peace pilgrimage... It was called Festival Freedom... and it was in 1993. And we had 13 people... and that black pastor was there with his wife. And we had actually more African-Americans than Jews on that trip. We had more Christians than Jews. But it didn't matter. That was the beginning of it. And then in.. '93 '94 '95… and then there was a hiatus… it was very very labor-intensive. And so I stopped for a few years. And then I did it one more time in the year 2000. And where do you think the majority of the people came from in the year 2000? Guess…

SAMIA: Where? Los Angeles?

RUTH: Philadelphia…

SAMIA: Oh my gosh...

RUTH: Which was her question to me… will you have people coming from Philadelphia? I couldn't believe it, you know… And God works in mysterious, but also humorous ways. And when… if we can plug into God's humor... we can have a much better life... And I know that is very close to your heart in what you're doing and what you're teaching people, and educating them to understand how to pursue life with purpose and with a smile… and a sense of humor about everything... So I want to commend you for doing that.

SAMIA: Thank you Ruth... Thank you so much... And.. I mean you know going back to your point that you were making earlier about... You know... smiling… and laughing being things that are universal, that we can understand, and that really bring us together... Can you tell me like a few strategies... or like… what's your approach to creating more fun and laughter when you think about engaging people in interfaith… or as you engage in interfaith yourself...

RUTH: Well one of the programs that I spearheaded when I was co-chair of the Southern California Parliament of the World's Religions was... it was called.. the Latino Yankee festival... Now you know Yankees that's a... it wasn't always an endearing… but it has kind of come to be an endearing nickname for North Americans who speak English. So they used to call us Yankee. Actually they had... there's a song about it… Yankee Doodle Dandy… Making fun of us… There is also a very famous expression… the... Yankee Go Home. Meaning, don't come and invade our territories. But it's come to be more of... kind of a fun way of addressing people from North America who are not of Latin or indigenous origin. And so when we did this Latino Yankee festival… what I did was, I found people who spoke Spanish in Los… this is in Los Angeles… of every religious connection. I found Baha'is who were Latino... I found Hindus were Latino... I found Muslims who were Latino... Jews who were Latino... Christians were Latino. I found all these people and I had them present themselves in front of the audience... And I asked them... they all introduced themselves from their different religions... And then at the end I said to people... Do you not understand that everybody standing up here today is a Latino... that they were born in a Latin American country? And yet when we talk about Latinos we always think of the Catholic church, and we think of their being Christian. And we just paint them all with one brush stroke. And I said… and look and here you have before you people from all these different religious communities who have made personal choices of how they want to worship God or how they want to live in the world... And I said… so what are you going to do with your stereotypes now? And so people laughed... Because they realized that they... they were unveiled… their prejudices were unveiled. But it was done in a humorous way... Because one of the secrets I've learned about interfaith engagement is... the point is not to embarrass people. The point is to find common ground where you can share a good joke together, or a laugh about something... So that everybody… Nobody is at the butt of the joke, except for yourself and your own ideas... And when you get to the point where you can laugh at yourself about notions that you've kept for you know 20-30 years, and to suddenly discover that you were totally wrong... so it shakes your foundation, but in a good way.

SAMIA: Yeah...

RUTH: Because then you make room… there's an opening for new understanding.. new information.. new wisdom.. and new enjoyment... Because you've just taken the husk off of something before which was unapproachable... or that was already frozen and fixed in time and you couldn't deal with it in any other way than the way you had... accustomed yourself to thinking about it. But now suddenly... right... moment of revelation... And… and there is such pleasure in revelation. I can't imagine using any other word to describe revelation... It's a high... And when we have revelations about one another then the prospects for peace increase exponentially.

SAMIA: Yes… and you know actually the example that you just shared is such a brilliant example... And the other thing it made me think about is that other than revelations about other people.. and in this context.. in an interfaith context... I think one of the most valuable aspects of interfaith engagement for me has been how much I have learned about not only people of other faiths and about myself... but about other Muslims. Because I mean... when we have interfaith things going on we have like... I mean such a diversity of Muslims who come into the space you know... And sometimes it's like even more fascinating… especially this was a very common experience for me when I first started engaging in interfaith... is to discover all the different kinds of Muslims out there... And you know like in America especially that is such a... like.. privilege… I feel like I have… Because like if I was back in Pakistan… 98% of the population is Muslim... and we're by and large... you know.. we… we're of the same race... we speak the same language... we share a wide... like a dominant culture together...

RUTH: Great...

SAMIA: But in America we have Muslims from all over the world... they're all different skin colors... speaking different languages... And even when you look at you know how we understand Islam... how we practice Islam... it can vary so much. And I have discovered that more in interfaith spaces here in America than anywhere else. And so you know when you were talking about having all those Latinos who were belonging to different faiths... it made me also think about like all the different Muslims that I have learned about participating in interfaith spaces...

RUTH: So I have to tell you this… Because I'm Jewish... and one of the oldest Jewish jokes in the world… and actually it's in one of the songs that I wrote for the musical is… where there are two Jews, there are three opinions... So I used to say… I think that the Jews were made ahead of time in preparation for interfaith engagement. Because we can never agree with each other anyhow about what something means. And even in the classical tradition of Judaism if you take the Talmud... which is commentary about the Tanakh, about the Torah... Right... So in the Talmud, when you open up, it's these giant pages... And you open it up and on the upper right hand corner is the… in Hebrew… the tract that’s there that is being discussed by rabbis from all over the world, throughout the centuries, not just from one period of time… Right... And so there's like four or five lines and then you have the rest of the two big pages, which are all commentaries from rabbis, from sages, from different periods of time, for thousands of years... And they don't agree with each other. And so by the time you read all the commentaries, and you're waiting to find out what's the “right answer”... you realize that there might be more than one right answer… And you can't even get all these great thinkers to agree on what it is. And so part of our tradition is knowing ahead of time.. and actually it's the one of the other ways it's said, is that… To be able to accept two opposites at this same time... right... The paradox of accepting two things that are opposite of each other as both true at the same time. And mastering that is, I would say, essential if you're going to have fun in interfaith engagement. 

SAMIA: Yes…

RUTH: Because you are fixated on how it has to be... or exactly the way you've been brought up to believe, and you have no room for any other possibility, you will suffer. You will suffer... It won't be fun. But I think that we all are capable. We do have that ability to hold more than one truth at the same time.

 SAMIA: Yeah...

RUTH: And I think interfaith engagement cultivates that, and develops that... And the proof is in the pudding. Because one of the songs I wrote for the musical is called… and this is from a Jewish woman who wrote this song right... It's called “Jesus is here for you”. I'm not a born-again Christian... I'm not a Jew converted to Christianity. But I took on as a challenge, writing a song as if I were a Christian... And then I had a gospel singer, a black gospel singer, record the song for me... And when she finished, I said to her... do you realize that the person who wrote this song is not Christian... And she said… You can't be serious... And then she thought about it and she said.. Well if they did, they wrote it from the heart... And that was like... what should I say... That was gold. That was such a gift… what she said.. Because it made me realize that... 25 years ago Samia… I could not have written that song. I wasn't… my heart wasn't prepared to be able to enter into someone else's faith on such a deep level that I could write a song as if it was from their faith and not mine... At the same time not abandoning my own belief or my own identification as a Jew. So that was an amazing moment to hear her sing it, and to hear her comment on it and say… It's a really beautiful song. And I think that we are all capable of that... I think that even atheists are capable of grasping what it means to be a person of faith. And that people of faith can also understand an atheist point of view. Maybe not accept it… you may not agree with it. But it's all possible. And if it can be presented musically, even better. And that's kind of what I was aiming at when I started writing these songs.

SAMIA: Yes... Oh my gosh… You know I've had the absolute pleasure and the privilege of watching the performance of “Interfaith: The Musical”. At least one version of it... And one of the things that I really loved about it was... of course it was a lot of fun... And you know the thing was that you took us through so many different emotions over the course of the play. I mean there were some songs that were just... I mean just so soulfully beautiful... There were others that were just funny… there were some that were even sad... But like together they just created this beautiful experience... And what I came out of it with was a feeling of upliftment... a feeling of being connected to a sense of love for myself and for people of other faiths... and you know just that whole process of engagement… And... because like a lot of the songs... they really made you think.. and they were… they were like expressing people's thoughts as they thought about Interfaith and as they engaged in interfaith... Oh my gosh... It was such... Could you share a song with us? Like I remember...

RUTH: I was just thinking about this song, “What If My Children Go Astray”... Because that is one of the... tugging at someone's heart... not just making them laugh during the evening… Which of course… the laughter was an essential part… But also recognizing that this work is not for the faint of heart… that this work also involves challenges... It involves breaking taboos of cultures and of religious paths that sometimes are so painful... You see parents who excommunicate their children because their children choose a different way to worship God, or marry outside of the faith... And we all know stories like that… I have people in my own family… And I know other people from other faiths that the same thing has happened where parents are not allowed to see their children any longer.. because their child has married someone from another faith. And I remember when the words to the song came through me... "What if my children go astray... What if they find another way... What happens to my legacy... what happens to my family tree..." And... the whole song is about coming to terms with it. And the young girl who... that was the father singing the song… And the young girl sings... "What if I cannot bring them home, when I have children of my own... What of my own integrity, if I'm not allowed to be me". And these are issues that will come up in every generation... will come up in every tradition you know. Someone said to me... well could this musical be shown elsewhere? I said this music will be shown right this minute in India... And instead of having the problems in the love story between a young Jewish girl and a Native American boy, it could be a young Muslim girl and a Hindu boy from India... Or it could be within the Hindu tradition between people of different caste systems.. where their parents… I just read a few months ago about a family that killed the groom... The family of the bride killed the groom after the wedding because he was from a different caste... So this is contemporary. It's not just something that happened you know thousands of years ago that we tell stories about. So these are the hardcore, poignant, heartbreaking issues within interfaith engagement. But it would not be as invaluable as it is if we didn't have that part too. If it was only about having fun and curiosity and...

SAMIA: Yeah...

RUTH: …and just getting to meet each other and become friends... And you know that, it would be valuable. But what makes it "Invaluable" is that it also deals with wounds… and the rough places and the situations that we have to grapple with. And we don't always get the answers from our clergy, or from people who are spiritual leaders. Because they can't always provide the answers either. And so we have to stumble through the dark and figure this out for ourselves. And that's really what the musical is about as well... The parents of both the young woman and the young man in the story are totally opposed to the marriage… so both parents are opposed for similar reasons... Because of maintaining tradition and continuity... And yet they each have a different way of coming to discover something about themselves that then makes it possible for them to even consider participating in an interfaith wedding. So I know that there will be people in the audience that will plug in at different places because of their own personal experience. And what I'm really hoping for is that beyond the musical theater experience and hearing the words and laughing and crying and all the things you talked about… something is that afterwards there will always be a Q&A session where people can talk about the deeper issues, and the things that upset them and make them wonder how they are going to navigate that minefield of emotion and tradition and culture and history and parental oversight, etc. etc. So what ultimately, what makes a good story on the stage is the Human Story. The personal dramatic story of an individual or people who are related to each other. And my main thought when I started to receive all this music in a very mystical magical way… I can't even account for how it all happened… But my main thought was.. when I finally figured out why was, of course, how do we get to the mainstream to convey the ideas of interfaith engagement if not on the musical theater stages? Because that is the perfect place to be able to try out these ideas and to show inclusivity, and to show the beauty of our diversity. Which you know, The Book of Mormon, was a delightful show. And it was shown all over the world and made a lot of money.  And it was poking fun at the Mormons for two and a half hours... And I, although I admired its theatricality and music and all that choreography… I always think to myself, why should we be poking fun just at the Mormons for their beliefs... We all have beliefs in miracles in each of our traditions... What if we could have a musical that would showcase the diversity in the world… and the fact that in spite of what we've come to believe as irreconcilable differences, that's not true... It's not true. And each tradition… I know in Islam it's true... has a vision of paradise, of where people… the lamb and the lion, come together... We certainly have it in Judaism. I know Christianity has it.. I know every tradition does have a vision of what paradise would look like, and it has to do with living together peacefully. So it's the road there which is so fascinating and interesting. And if we allow it to be... it doesn't have to be daunting… It can be fun.

SAMIA: Yes. You know I truly believe that... Like when I think about my understanding of God... It's like… every capability that God has given us, is there for a reason. And there was some wisdom behind it... And God gave me the capability that I have to laugh and to smile, to have fun... And I really do believe, one of the most important reasons why God gave us this ability is because it makes the process of getting to know each other, of creating change more easy. And God wants things to be more easy for us. It's like, of course the challenges are there for us because there's things we need to learn... So... you know we need to deal with that... But why unnecessarily suffer through that learning?

RUTH: Well also that there are people who say and God loves a good story…

SAMIA: Yeah...Like you were saying… God definitely, for sure when you think about it, has a sense of humor...

RUTH: Absolutely... absolutely...

SAMIA: Thank you so much Ruth for this wonderful conversation... 

RUTH: I'm gonna share a short video which you can attach to this if you like… That has excerpts from some of the songs, so that people can have a flavor of it, from the public performance that you saw. So...

SAMIA: Awesome...

RUTH: Range with music and with great voices... Not mine...

SAMIA: So that is a perfect segway for me to say that we do have to wrap up for today... But, for all of you who are listening... make sure you check the show notes… Because we're going to add Ruth's links so you can get in touch with her... We'll add that link that Ruth  just mentioned where you can listen to some of the beautiful, wonderful, songs of the “Interfaith: The Musical”.... And yeah, until we get to connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy. :)