SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet! It's really, really good to be with you again. And I know you're going to really enjoy joining us today because we have a very special guest... And it's Dr. Mari Kovanen… I hope I said that right…

MARI: Yes, absolutely. And to that beautiful list of a greetings I would also like to add my original Finnish... Hay, which is very, you know, it's quite easy because yeah... So hey…

SAMIA: Hey... I love it! 

MARI: So lovely to be here. And I'm really excited about this conversation.

SAMIA: Yes, me too. And Dr. Mari, will you please tell us more about who you are and what you do?

MARI: Okay, so I'm a registered psychologist, and I'm also a Conscious Dating Coach, I... So I have kind of two roles. So I have a therapy practice. But I've then now moved on to really focusing on dating coaching. And I love everything about relationships, and helping people with their relationship, at different stages of their relationship. So now we're more talking about kind of finding the right kind of partner and focusing on that…

SAMIA: Very cool, very cool... Ah, so what got you interested in working in this area… I'm wondering as a… with your psychology background and all…

MARI: Well, the psychology was… I was interested in from day one. I think from there kind of doing my going to, even before university doing a little bit of sort of there, you know, like doing what would be your equivalent of high school, I suppose. And then going into psychology… but when we are talking about specifically about relationships… because originally I trained as, as an occupational psychologist, and I realized that that wasn't giving me the kind of relationships that I wanted to really kind of have, you know, in work, and help people with their relationships. But the inspiration really then to do my doctorate and everything came from, I suppose my own, like often it does, my own struggles and kind of sort of trying to navigate first as a single woman, the dating world… and this was the sort of early days of internet dating when it was still considered a little bit embarrassing... and only meant for people who were desperate for whatever reason, I don't know that… it was new, and so on. So that's, and then I met my husband. And then I realized that I really wanted to understand more about how we relate with each other. What makes relationship works, what, why don't they work and all of that... So that relationship then became really focus of my work, and in many different ways and on different levels.

SAMIA: That is so cool. That is so cool. Thank you for sharing that part of your journey with us. And it actually made me think about… I've seen some of the posts that you make on social media. And I think one of the topics you're so awesome at sort of speaking to is how to navigate the pressures of dating life... Can we… let's talk more about that. So, in that context, can you maybe start us off by sharing one of the big problems you see clients, your clients, facing?

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MARI: So when we take… I guess, dating in different phases of our lives, it's quite different.

SAMIA: Yeah.

MARI: So when you are in your 20s, maybe and… but also there's some cultural differences in that too. But generally, say in your early 20s or so, dating can be quite easy in many ways because you're naturally meeting people in various, you know, you go to study and you meet lots of people and so on. And then kind have the dating sort of changes in some ways… you start to settle more into working world. And yes, you might be meeting people, but maybe you don't want to be meeting those people… you don't want to necessary… I certainly never wanted... it's almost like that's the secret code is like, don't touch that place where you are, because it can get really awkward. But of course, some people do find love through that, you know, that way to that. So in your 20s is quite in, there's lots of activity… But also, especially for women, when you are approaching maybe late 20s, and then going into 30s, and if you haven't found that person, your person yet... and then when you start to realize that your friends are starting to get engaged, and maybe they're living together or that, you know, there's all of these sort of natural kind of progressions in their relationships… and you start to wonder… well, when is it going to happen for me? And now I'm this and this age. Okay, I'm 29 and I'm turning 30… and panic, panic… will this mean that I will never find that one… or okay, I'm turning now 35... And oh, my goodness, I've got only limited time, you know, if I want to have a family… and all of that… So there's a lot of pressure, especially on women. And men do experience it to a degree but in different ways. Of course, it's not exactly the same for them... So, yeah, there is this sort of biology… and that can push people to make quite rash decisions sometimes and jump into situations where they realize, probably then later on, okay, maybe I didn't think about this kind of, really fully. And I think the biggest kind of mistake that I notice that people make is especially... excuse me, excuse me... Sorry, just recovering from a cold a little bit... especially when you are under that pressure. And, and I guess this is seen in many ways in all these lovely… Hollywood films are all about you kind of you meet someone, you meet them in the whatever, grocery store or something… or you go somewhere and you meet this person, and then you live happily ever after. And not at one any point, it's like the main, you know, the female character goes through a whole thinking process is like, Okay, who am I, and what do I really want, and what kind of relationship… and, and then kind of really sort of assessing and really in a conscious way, and in a very mindful way of thinking about, Okay, this is a very big decision… in the same way as when you're choosing a job… you know, you don't just launch into it, whatever kind of looks good on paper… you spend a lot of time assessing, is this the right one or that one or what... So people often kind of launch into relationships… and also… and I made all of these mistakes so I know from experience… but also, we're not really necessarily always aware, the cocktail hormones that we actually we get intoxicated, when we see someone who we are attracted to. And that person might not actually be the right person for a relationship. But if we are not aware, we might think, Oh, this chemistry, this amazing cocktail that I'm feeling right now, this must mean that this is, you know, this is love. And this is going to be the person for me for however long… and you know, for a long-term relationship… but actually, not necessarily... Do they does that person how good relationship qualities? Do they also want the same things in life? Do they share similar type of lifestyle? And if not, that could be that is just the attraction. And so it's really important to kind of slow down, even under the kind of the ticking biological clock... In some ways, it's like, you know, there's sometimes this phrase that… to go faster, you need to go slower. Because if you tried to go faster, you probably end up in the wrong place. But if you take things super slow, you kind of approach it in that sort of way, and maybe you need to reassure yourself that it will happen, it will happen... but I need to spend some time figuring out who am I? And what is it that I want in a relationship? What type of person might be a really good match for me? What type of lifestyle… and I think this is the lifestyle is really important… because if I'm, for example, a person who… and especially when people enter, like 30s, maybe 20s is much more sociable… And when you start to enter your 30s, you're maybe like, Okay, well, I've been so, so sure... And yes, I might even, you know, enjoy social activities, but maybe not to the same degree as… especially with busy careers and everything. So then maybe in my 30s, I want to maybe slightly quiet life in some ways… just to, you know, balance it out and what have you. But if I then meet someone who wants, you know, who wants to go out, and many men, for example, enjoy watching sports. So if there's a guy… taking a very English kind of example… if it's a guy who loves to go to the pub, and watch sports there a lot. And if that's not for you, that's going to create a lot of problems… because your lifestyles are very different, and what you want in the long term… So, you know, there is that kind of… one of the biggest mistakes is really the rushing into things without consiously thinking, okay, how will this pan out and if I spent kind of time getting to know someone and thinking about this... And often, the most, kind of long-lasting relationships are the ones that are slow burners almost. Actually, interesting, last week at the hairdresser's, there was a really sweet lady came there, this lady, she said, "Oh, tomorrow is our 60th wedding anniversary." And the hairdresser said, Oh, well, I don't know if I would be able to be with my partner for such a long time, you know, it's a very long time. And she said, oh, but we love each other... And she said, "Don't choose someone who you kind of, you know, immediately fall in love with madly. And choose someone instead, who you really like." So I guess, as she's repeating this same sort of message… they're not just going on the… acting on the hormonal kind of cocktail, but actually finding someone whose personality is good. And of course, there needs to be some sort of chemistry too. But that can grow as you get to know someone and appreciate their qualities and so on…

SAMIA: Yeah, you know, you made so many excellent, excellent points there... And I think this distinction between, you know, the emotional, like, cocktail that we can experience, that's like so exciting in a way… but to not equate that with love in terms of the love that is needed and necessary for us to create and maintain, especially a long term relationship... that is such a important thing, I think, for us to talk about because so often… Like, I can remember having conversations with friends and family where, you know, like, relationships crop up because of this exact issue where people are struggling… Because on the one hand when you're experiencing that emotional cocktail, that's so passion fueled and filled and exciting to feel... I mean, emotions are the strongest motivators of our actions…

MARI: ...absolutely.

SAMIA: ..and behaviors. And so it's so difficult to resist where they want to lead us… and you know, this idea that is oftentimes also romanticized in the context of relationships of “follow your heart” and you're like, experiencing all these intense emotions. And if I follow them, isn't that me following my heart, and isn't that way for me to find the love that I'm seeking, you know... so that's very confusing, I think. Especially if it's like the first time you've experienced this emotion.

MARI: Absolutely. And many people who I've spoken with… the first time ever… you will remember that person forever, they will leave a mark because it is so intense. And it's the first breakup, the first person, and the first breakup… It's really intense... And it's not that, you know, is not intense, or is not deep with someone else later. But there's something about this kind of new experience. And following your heart… it does not mean that you just act on a whim in some ways. Because if you... And I guess you need... And then we are talking about now going into your sort of late 20s and 30s, or even, you know, beyond… where you've got some experience about relationships, usually, and you understand a little bit about yourself and more… And it's really kind of assessing that, okay, I'm having these… you know, the more you understand yourself, it's like, okay, I'm having these strong feelings about this person. But I also been curious about, I wonder why that is... Does the person have these qualities that I'm looking for in the relationship? Okay, do they, you know… are they kind, compassionate? Are they able to openly talk about things? And also kind of... I always say to clients… you know, when you do your list of what you want in a relationship, what type of person… also seek out for evidence on the dates so that you are not filling the gaps… Because our brains very good at filling the gaps if we want something, you know, and we are attracted to someone, we might just fill in the gaps, and then hope for the best. But it's, you know… what does the evidence say... Do they have these kind of qualities? Then it would mean that there is potential for the long-term. Because in long term you need the sort of qualities to be able to really work together as someone who also wants to commit and work through and iron out any kind of difficulties and so on. So that's really important…

SAMIA: Yeah, and, you know, like, it just made me think about also is… depending on our relationship goals... like whether I want a long-term sustainable, loving relationship, or I want... or I'm open to having a more short-term, passionate relationship, my... I mean, hopefully, like, when we go into it, you don't maybe necessarily wish for it to be short term, but you're open to that possibility that it might be short… because you're sort of, you know, in that mindset of exploring and discovery… that would also sort of change the kind of strategies that you utilize in how you even think about going about, like, looking for somebody, I suppose... Or opening yourself up to somebody finding you. And in that context, I imagine, you know, there's different dynamics when it comes to navigating, well, what kind of pressures do you experience in the dating context and how you navigate them…

MARI: Yeah, oh, you mean like the online dating antics... and what you know, there is so much and a lot of times people say "Oh, but no one really wants commitment. They just want short-term or this kind of situation ships", which are really kind of all the relationship benefits except the commitment.

SAMIA: Yeah.

MARI: …so it looks like on many ways, like a relationship, but we are not kind of defined by it. And then one thing I think is really important for us to kind of be aware is that us women are biologically… as much as we sometimes may wish that it wasn't the case… but we are designed in a different way to men. And I need to mention… women's empowerment I guess has, in many ways, tried to convince us that we are exactly the same. Whereas, yes, in many ways, we're all humans, but we have also different kinds of biological makeup, which then rewards different things. We get rewarded by having, you know, certain dopamine, and what have you, in different ways for different things. And sometimes women have said to me aside, you know… I tried, I wanted to have this sort of very casual, relaxed attitude to a relationship. But what happened is that when we then actually, you know, it became physically intimate and everything, and then I wanted more, but he didn't. And what's wrong with me now, because I can't do it? Well, there are biological reason explaining it… because women very much… there is oxytocin, which is like a cuddle hormone. And with intimacy, physical intimacy, we get that sort of cocktail. And that bonds us with that person. Whereas for men is a different hormone... So it's, and that responds in a different way. So it, we are not the same at all. So in some ways, we may need to be quite careful in terms of entering certain type of situations, because the chances are quite high that you will burn yourself in those situations... And if you just hate that maybe he will then, you know, decide that he wants to be with you as well… but the chances are, that he doesn't... And so there is that kind of, I guess the empowerment is here for women is that… speak up for what you want in their relationship and communicate that from the day one… is that this is what I'm looking for. If he is not on the same page, great, they will be someone else, don't waste your time on that person. And if you want to explore... go and explore… but be aware that this might lead you in a situation where you get your, you know, your fingers burnt… Or you know, it's, it becomes really hard for you. Because you've graded these feelings, or developed these feelings towards a person who then is not on the same page…

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. You just, you know, made me think about, like, in my Indian Pakistani culture, you know, there's a lot of double standard that we experience in society when it comes to how men get to act and how women get to act and be treated by society in response. And, you know, over the last so many decades as more and more, at least in the big cities, cultures have been becoming westernized, the… there is… especially in the upper classes, you know, I've experienced… there's just growing openness and movement towards, you know, having a more western lifestyle, including in the context of, for example, of being open to dating and having relationships, or romantic relationships outside of the marriage context, or looking for relationships without the explicit understanding that you are evaluating somebody for the purpose of getting married to them… And in this context one of the dynamics that we have seen, because of the sort of sexism I suppose that, that is, that is part of the culture unfortunately, that on the one hand, you know… like, for example, the women who are, you know, wanting to lead a more empowered and free lifestyle, where they feel more free… because, you know, in our, in our traditional culture, there was a lot of repression and suppression... And so it… I mean, I understand when people want to feel like, Ah, I want to move away from that… because there is the sense of wanting freedom… And so then it's like, well, what's the other model that you can follow? And for a lot of us in that context, the other model is what we think we see in the West as working for people. But what happens is that for women who end up, you know, going this route of dating and not necessarily insisting upon, oh, we have to, you know, if we’re meeting and so forth, it’s because we want to get married, and so on and so forth... What happens is that a lot of times, that the relationship will proceed to a certain point, and then the men will back out. And the excues that they give is that, yes, I love to date you, but I don't want to marry you because my family has other expectations of a wife I have. And so it's like, they're very happy to date women who are open to dating without insiting on marriage. But when it comes time to get married, those are the women that they will reject because they're going against society's and their family's vision of what an ideal wife is like. And it's just so… it's just… I find it really, really annoying, to put it mildly. Because then, you know, these women have been labeled and they get ostricized, and they end up struggling even more to find somebody to marry. But the men are given like a free pass. Even if they have a history of having dated many women and so forth, they're still considered to be fine-eligible bachelors for marriage... And it's like, what's with the double standards? And yeah, like, when I think about women's empowerment… just… I love the point that you made, is that, for us as women… like, we cannot… our goal, and the way that we achieve empowerment, cannot be to copy the men… that is actually not empowering at all. We have to find our own way…

MARI: Absolutely, absolutely... we’re made in a different way. And also, I mean, that's the richness of it all…I wouldn’t like to be a man... I wouldn't. I have two boys… amazing… and a husband… but I wouldn't be a man or boy… you know, you get different, I think, benefit in some ways for being a woman and different things, and different experiences. But you can be kind of equally powerful, but in a different way. Are you… and I guess the difficulty is that women be kind of either repressed, don't say anything… but we're talking about more in when you're dating consciously, is that you are empowering yourself to find the right kind of partner… you are empowering yourself to make decisions that work for you and asking for your needs to be met even at the dating stage… I mean, I've, you know, like, some clients who said… I said to the guy… I don't like texting, please don't text me. If you want to speak to me, call me, you know, because I don't want to spend my, all of my time on the text, you know, doing all of, you know, these millions of messages and what have you. I've got no time for it. So, you know, it's like asking, how do I even want to date... and but also going into a relationship that what is that, what is that I want to have, and what kind, you know, what's important for me... And that's being empowered when you are communicating about your needs and owning your needs, instead of trying to mold yourself to be the right one for that person. If that person is not willing to kind of negotiate… or not even negotiate, but you know… if they're not on the same page, they're just not the right person. And if you then kind of waste your time on that person, then the right person… you know you're not available for the right person. So let go of that one. And then this other person could be there just around the corner…

SAMIA: Yeah, you know... So I'm wondering, Dr. Mari, what is your definition of love… you know, this kind of love that allows us to create these happy, healthy, sustainable, long-term relationships… How do you... Like, when you think about what it means, how do you define that? As opposed to I guess the more emotional cocktail kind of feeling love?

MARI: Yeah, that is... I think it's the… some of the ingredients are really… commitment to the process. And it very much is a process. And it's a project... It's like the life project, that this shared goal, commitment to it, respecting each other… Trying to kind of see the this sort of approach with compassion… not always easy because, you know, for… depending on the state of your mind and what have you… But of course, there is a part of it is this sort of hormonal response... But that does ware out, so then it becomes about friendship and those shared values and life goals… the commitment to this… Because, yeah, if we don't commit, you know, then that in itself… yeah, there is no… if we don't commit, then we are… what is the point of this then… it is just then a passing kind of situation ship. So there's so much more… I think kind of a friendship base is a really good… in a same way as that little lady in the hairdresser's was saying about, you know, find someone who you actually like... And then the everything extra kind of comes on top of it. But that helps you to navigate many kind of situations in life…

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh, you know, you just made me think about a quote… I can't remember who the quote is by. But if it's something to the effect of… this person, it might be like Martin Luther King, Jr. I'm not sure... But I think it might have been him. Or it was one of the other big leaders that we know were committed to the practice of non-violence in everything that you do... And so, you know, in the context of practicing non-violence, you know, there's a value of unconditionally loving everyone. And so in… somebody was questioning this leader, about, you know, well, how can you just love everyone? And what does that even mean? What does that look like? What does that feel like? And so he said, he said... You know, I love everybody in the sense… well… but I don't necessarily always like everybody…

MARI: Yeah.

SAMIA: And so, he made that distinction between love and like... And so for him, the love that he was talking about, is this… is a, you know, a love, like a spiritual level love that you can actually cultivate for anyone and everyone, even your enemies, people who have hurt you, because the spiritual love is more of a recognition of how we are all connected to each other.

MARI: Yeah.

SAMIA: Whether we like each other or not, we are still, you know, part of this interconnected, interdependent whole and we impact each other in all kinds of ways. And so to recognize that is, you know, a form of experiencing spiritual love and to, you know... And because, you know, with non-violence, you're committed to not harming anyone else. And underlying motivation for that comes from this recognition of, we're all interconnected, we're all interdependent… and so if you hurt someone else, directly or indirectly, you end up hurting yourself. And so you know, from that place, you practice unconditional love for everyone… but you don't necessarily always like somebody. And you know, for me, it made me think about… and what you were just sharing… it made me think about how oftentimes we downplay, like, we think liking somebody is like a lower value or a lower level of how you can relate to somebody. And loving is more and better. But actually, in the context of the relationships, you know, liking is really, really, really important…

MARI: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's the… we… yeah, we need to separate the person from the actions. Absolutely we can love someone, but they might have qualities and actions that absolutely drive us bonkers. And then as I was saying… trying to find the compassion and seeing that we are all here trying to figure out this life. And we all struggle in different ways at different times. But the intention is that the person's intentions are good, even if it may come out in the wrong way, right now. And especially when we're talking about partners and that kind of, you know, relationships, and trying to see that we're all here, but also often trying to see… and this is maybe in dating one needs to be a little bit careful with this… this is more about when we're talking about in established relationship with you… and that trying to see that the other person is perhaps… is they… kind of the inner child, the hurting inner child acting… So what I'm saying is that need to be cautious about that when we are dating… that we don't make excuses for someone's bad behavior by saying… Oh, but they've had such a hard life, and now they're behaving in this way… Okay, that's probably true. And but they, but you don't need to be the rescuer…

SAMIA: Right.

MARI: ...or should not be a rescuer as the partner. So then, if that is the case and you meet someone, you need to be kind of… really here you need to feel, you know, be empowered and really look… But what could this person offer for me in the relationship? Do they actually offer anything that I'm looking for in a relationship? There are other sources where they can get support for their suffering…

SAMIA: Oh, you just made me think about one of my dearest friends who got engaged a while back… this was a while back... And the person that she got engaged to, turned out… like, as she got to know him more, she found that he had this very intense side to him that… where that would come out, like, you know, when you first met him, seemed to be very normal and just fine… all that... But as she got to know him better, it was like, oh, there was all this, like, stuff that he went through. And there's this intense side that comes out especially when we're alone. And my friend actually happens to be like, a brilliant Relationship Coach herself. And so she saw, like, she could deal with him… You know, she could sort of respond with compassion, this and that. But, you know, when it came down to like, making the decision of, okay, should we get married? Where's this relationship going? Do we need/want to keep this relationship going? He was very attached to her because he was like, Oh, you're, you're the first person I've met who understands me, who is able to help me… So he just wanted to hold on to her. But I think what she shared with me about why she finally decided to break it off with him, is because she was like, I didn't want to be his therapist. I didn't want to be his coach… I didn't… you know, yeah… like, I want a partner, who is my partner... and not my client.

MARI: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah…

SAMIA: So... but this... I think this is also something that I think I have a little bit of a pet peeve when it comes to like… one of the… in our, in my Indian Pakistani culture that, you know, a lot of times, especially this expectation is placed on women… where the men have all kinds of problems and their family… their solution, it seems… their solution is… oh, let's get him married, everything will be fine once he is married…

MARI: That will sort him out…

SAMIA: I'm like, no... How can like… and how can the parents and the family of the girl find that kind of thinking acceptable? Because it may or may not work out great for the guy to have wonderful, caring woman that he gets to marry. And she may or may not be able to actually end up helping him. But what about the woman, you know, whose going to have to deal with this man who is traumatized, acting out, and all of that kind of stuff... That's not a fair, I think exchange. But there’s like so much pressure and expectation that, no, you're a woman, you know, it's your job, it's your role to be a caregiver, and you know, that he needs you… you know, that…. so, you know… and you want to be needed… you feel like… you need… like, you feel… Like, somehow we actually, we choose to stay in the relationship, because we're like… oh, I can help this person here. And, you know, that makes you feel needed and maybe important, or I don't know what else. And so you actually can make that the motivation to stay. But it's not always necessarily a very healthy or wise motivation…

MARI: No, no... And they're usually in that, in that scenario, that person, initially the helper, or there's this kind of drama triangle where, you know, that if you're the rescuer, you might initially kind of get your needs met by feeling exactly wanted, and needed, and that's all nice. But if you're trying to help this person who's kind of falling into this sort of victim mode, and when he then doesn't act in the way that you want him to, and there's the frustration, and then it's like, yes, but I thought that if I give you all of this, you will then become this person…

SAMIA: Yeah.

MARI: But it's the person, the guy in this case, he needs to find his own way… she won't be able to do it…

SAMIA: Yeah.

MARI: ..though, then there's, she will become frustrated. And this relationship is not in any way kind of… she's not getting… what she was hoping to get is an equal partner… And over time, that's really, it's really draining…

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah... Okay, so I have one more question…

MARI: Okay.

SAMIA: I just looked at the time, and I was like, I think we better start wrapping up, but I have one more question, at least. And so we talked a lot about today, you know, the cocktail of emotions that we can feel, then, you know, sort of being driven by them. My question is, do you have any tips for how to manage… like, if you're experiencing that, that kind of passion or, you know, that cocktail of emotions… any tips for how to manage that so that we can not let that be the sole driver of our behavior and we can take some of that slower? Yeah, and, you know, also be able to slow ourselves down as you were saying… in some ways take that bigger picture perspective, and all that good stuff…

MARI: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so many things… but it's self-awareness, first of all... And understanding maybe what this person kind of... what is it about this person? Is it just their appearance, or quite likely that there's going to be something about this person that triggers maybe past wants within us... And this is an intense… so we need to be really self-aware. So there's that piece of understanding my own history, relationships… when did I not get my needs met in relationships. And also having your kind of concrete list… exactly what do I want in a relationship... What would that relationship look like… and doing maybe meditations on that and really spending kind of connecting inwards and grounding oneself. And yes, if it feels okay, depending on how I suppose… for some people dating multiple people at the same time is okay… from others, it might feel draining... So if the reason why it might be helpful, because then you're not kind of putting your eggs in one basket, and getting too involved with one person… but you're actually keeping your options open. So it can be helpful. Because if you're just getting to know someone, you're going for maybe, I don't know, coffee dates, or, or something like that, when you're really getting to know… so you are sort of being able to then slow down and getting to know someone and not interviewing, but kind of like it's an exchange, and then at the same time listening all the time, that… am I hearing… and also observing this type of behaviors that I'm looking for in the relationship... So yeah, all of this and journaling, also kind of really understanding what's going on. All of those kind of things can be really helpful. And maybe, yeah, it's maybe setting some rules for myself, that okay... And I guess one thing is really to say, okay, if I set a rule that there is no physical intimacy before exclusivity... Then that sort of… sometimes I think that can be quite difficult for modern women to kind of navigate that, because maybe that feels like there's a pressure that I need… and maybe they guys put in pressure. But if he is putting pressure, and you are not on the same page, that's a sign that maybe he's not the right person… if he's putting too much pressure, and he's not respecting you... when else would he not be then respecting you... So, yeah, so kind of keeping that as the sort of rule for yourself and for dating… so that allows you to really take it slow. And also, you don't need to be kind of talking to someone all the time… you know, all of these… Yeah, actually, that's an important point... Don't go on this… this text message marathon. Because they really create, like, a false sense of intimacy. But it's not real. It is not really until you are in, you know, face to face, you are really observing someone, and kind of getting to know so that you can observe… and if someone's just sending messages and what have you, yes, we get dopamine hits and so on, we get rewards. But it's not real, you know... So, you know, real relationships we build over time. And I just need to slow down and, and focus on giving myself the love that I'm really looking from them. So that I'm giving myself the love first. So then the attention, the male attention, maybe… that's just, you know… the dating is just an additional thing to my life. It doesn't become this source of sort of attention and love. But I'm giving myself that first.

SAMIA: Yes. I love that... And that is a wonderful bit of wisdom for us to wrap up on. Do you have any last things that you would love to share with our audience…

MARI: So I would love to share with the, with the audience, my pre-date bliss meditation, which can absolutely help with this slowing the whole process down and preparing for first date, second date, whatever date… or even before going on… dating apps can be quite triggering. So you might feel quite activated. So if you feel that, you may be need to kind of ground yourself and turn inwards before you use an app, for example, or even before you go on the date. Then going and kind of connecting with yourself first. Then when you go on the date, you feel more present. And when you are more present, you're able to enjoy yourself better. But also you are then able to see his behavior instead of kind of worrying about that, will he like me… and you know… Of course we're always thinking about, you know, will he like... But not just focusing on that, that… what do I need to be for him to like me? But actually, I can be myself more because I'm connecting myself with myself first. So it all goes back to the empowering myself to be kind of the full person myself, and I'm supporting myself here, and then I can meet that other person from that place. And if they seem like they have the qualities and the interaction and everything, that's, that's kind of good and I'm enjoying myself, right… then that's really… then maybe that could be a second date and so on... But yeah, so that's the purpose of the pre-date meditation is to kind of help you really to get grounded and prepare yourself for a date. And so on…

SAMIA: Awesome... I love that. And thank you so much for sharing that gift with us, Dr. Mari. So my last reminder to all of our listeners is… please make sure you check the show notes, because we will drop Dr. Mari's links in there, including the link for you to access this pre-date meditation. That will be so helpful... Thank you again so much, Dr. Mari. I am just so grateful for all the time and wisdom you have shared with us today.

MARI: No, thank you... It's been so lovely to have this conversation. Thank you for having me…

SAMIA: Yes. And until we connect next time... I wish you lots and lots of peace and joy…

MARI: Oh, thank you. You too... Bye.