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Understanding Grief And Grief Recovery...With Hanifa Menen & Samia Bano

To connect with Hanifa, visit:

Are you or a loved one experiencing #grief and not sure #howtoheal?Grief can be a difficult emotion to process, but you are not alone. You don’t have to go through the #griefjourney by yourself; there are people who care and can provide the #grieftraining you need.

Listen now to this interview with #GriefRecovery and #BrainRetraining Guide, Hanifa Menen, to understand the different types of grief and how you can help yourself and your loved ones understand and deal with #griefandloss in the most effective and empowered ways. 

Learn more about Hanifa and how she can help you at: https://hearthealthbrainhealth.com/You can also connect with Hanifa at: https://www.facebook.com/drmenen

#griefawareness #emotionalintelligence

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ABOUT SAMIA:

Samia Bano is the #HappinessExpert, author, speaker, podcaster & coach for coaches and healers. Samia is most known for her book, 'Make Change Fun and Easy' and her #podcast of the same name. With the help of her signature Follow Your Heart Process™, a unique combination of #PositivePsychology and the spiritual wisdom of our most effective #ChangeMakers, Samia helps you overcome #LimitingBeliefs, your chains of fear, to develop a #PositiveMindset and create the impact and income you desire with fun and ease…

Samia’s advanced signature programs include the Happiness 101 Class and the Transformative Action Training.

Samia is also a Certified #ReikiHealer and Crisis Counselor working to promote #MentalHealthAwareness.

Samia models #HeartCenteredLeadership and business that is both #SociallyResponsible and #EnvironmentallyFriendly.

Samia is a practicing #Muslim with an inter-spiritual approach. As someone who has a love and appreciation for diversity, she is a #BridgeBuilder between people of different faiths and cultures.

Although Samia currently lives in California, USA, she has lived in 3 other countries and speaks Hindi, Urdu, and English fluently.

To Book your Free HAPPINESS 101 EXPLORATION CALL with Samia, click: tps://my.timetrade.com/book/JX9XJ

Full Video Transcript


SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet! It's really, really good to be with you again, and you will be really happy you are with us. Because we have a very awesome guest with us today. And it's Hanifa Menen, who is a Grief Recovery and Brain Retraining Guide... I think that is so cool. Welcome Hanifa…

HANIFA: Thank you so much Samia. Thank you for having me here…

SAMIA: Absolutely. I'm so happy you're here with us. And I will ask you to please, first of all, tell us more about who you are and what you do…

HANIFA: Alrighty, then. Thank you for that welcome and I loved all of the hellos you said in every language, that was so beautiful... So I can tell you that, yes, my name is Hanifa Menen and I am a Grief Recovery and Brain Retraining Guide, as you mentioned... I used to be a Naturopathic Doctor for 21 years. And I feel that this movement into Grief recovery and brain retraining has been very beneficial to the clients that I work with, largely because it focuses on self-empowerment. And that to me is something that a lot of times when people are working with healthcare professionals, there becomes a reliance on the professional for direction and for treatment and for management. And I believe that people have the strength to be empowered themselves. And I feel that this is the greatest gift that any practitioner can help their clients achieve or patients achieve, and I'm doing this today…and I'm loving it…

SAMIA: Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that because I agree with you that a lot of times we do develop a dependence on... Because, you know, oftentimes we see our doctors and healthcare professionals that we... I mean, we're trusting them with our lives. And there's a tendency to just sort of, in some ways… I don't know if taking for granted is the right word, but… probably not the right word... But, you know, we do develop a dependence and a reliance on their knowledge. And you know, of course, in its own way, that's really important. Because if you don't have a healthy trusting relationship with your healthcare providers, I mean, that would create its own problems. And at the same time, we do have to, I think, recognize that, ultimately, it's our bodies, and we have to realize that we have to be the experts of our own bodies and our own lives... I... you make me think of my dad, who has always been the person in our family, who has raised our consciousness when it comes to these kinds of issues. He's amazingly practiced at being aware of what's happening with his body. So when he's not feeling well, or even when he's receiving treatment, you know, he's able to observe the impact that it's having on him. And so when I have had the opportunity to visit a healthcare professional with him, and he is communicating with the person, the care provider, about what's going on with him, he's able to be so detailed and, you know, just… is like an excellent patient in that sense, because he's able to tell the healthcare provider, okay, you gave me this medication and it had this impact on me or I've been experiencing these symptoms... Yeah.

HANIFA: That’s amazing self awareness, for sure…

SAMIA: Indeed, indeed, and I have always been in amazement of it, because I try to be inspired by his example. And I must say, in the recent years, I have been becoming better with my own body awareness. But for most, most, most of my life I've had pretty terrible body awareness. So…

HANIFA: Well it's very interesting that different things in our lives bring us to that space of even an interest in having that awareness. It's probably a background awareness for most people. And yet there's also, you know, you said the word… he has a reliance. So this was… this reliance on others, it's nice to be able to have an equal reliance on ourselves, right? So if we feel that I can only be reliant on something outside of me, it does give the illusion that only something outside of me, can help me... Then when  we look at health care, we know there's so much tied in with this, there is so much… whether we think political, whether we think government or whether we think financial, there are directions that are being pointed at people constantly. And then there's this be this faith, this faith without even fully understanding all those little background cues that are happening. But in healthcare, we do understand… but even in healthcare, I think a lot of times, even healthcare practitioners can turn a blind eye to that because, of course, if a healthcare practitioner’s full income is dependent on people needing them, then they're also dependent on people needing them. So then it goes back and forth that way. So once again, it's just an awareness to have on all sides, right…? Which again in itself could be a grief awareness that, oh, that brings me some feeling of loss, if I'm that open about, you know, you're as strong as I am. And because it should bring a feeling of empowerment on both sides, right? So when I train you to be empowered, it empowers me too, right. Whereas in historically I believe the way that healthcare professionals have been trained, and have been encouraged to move in, in the world, has been more about, I'm the expert, and I will help you understand, right, that sort of idea. And so then that becomes that space of dependence as you, as you said, and on both sides.

SAMIA: Yes, I hear you, I hear you… you know... wow… a couple of threads that I would love to uplift from what you were just sharing… first, maybe just an observation about something that I love about you… that every time we have a conversation, you… I notice you raising awareness about limiting beliefs that we can form without necessarily even realizing it. For example, right now, you just raised awareness around how we can develop a limiting belief around, you know, what… this idea of, oh, I need someone or something outside of myself to be able to help myself, in the context of my health and other issues as well, I'm sure. So I find that really important, you know, being aware of our limiting beliefs, because they are limiting…

HANIFA: They are... And you know, it's so interesting, Samia, this idea of, we're all the same, we're all the same... So even when we think about limiting beliefs, we can see much more similarity amongst all of us. But we have a tendency to differentiate that, okay, this is a practitioner, this is a healthcare provider, this is a parent, this is a child, this is someone older than me, someone younger than me. And then we have all these… but it's all of us are carrying all of this… in the collective consciousness we're all the same. We're all receiving the same information. So to be aware of it helps all of us, right? So this is what I believe…

SAMIA: Indeed…

HANIFA: You know, I believe, you're very self-aware yourself. I honestly think that. Again, it's only when we actually pay attention to… hey, I actually do get that. I just haven't spent time thinking about it or being becoming more aware of it, right… that sort of an idea... I'm sorry. I'm turning off my work phone to make sure that that does not ring again…

SAMIA: No worries, no worries at all and I appreciate your doing that. Ah, okay, okay... SAMIA: So the second thing that I heard you mention, although in passing, but I think I would love to focus our conversation today on that… is the idea of Grief Recovery. Because I know that, you know, you have a really excellent way of understanding that and I would love to learn more about Grief Recovery from you. Please tell me more…

HANIFA: I'd be so happy to you know, this is my passion! Grief Recovery is a process of working through… it's a particular model of working with grief. And a lot of people have heard the word grief and many people will link it to things like death, or divorce, sometimes separation, sometimes a move… something about loss... And grief’s often linked to loss of relationships… I think in common language. In Grief Recovery, specifically, we look at grief as any experience that has a conflicting emotion. And that could be any two emotions, any two different emotions. So let's say, we can easily think of someone who is caregiving for an ailing parent, for example, and that parent passes away. So then a person would feel that oh because the person passed away, this is a grief situation. But there might be a relief in the person too that, oh, I couldn't handle seeing them suffer, I couldn't handle the strain that was having on me. And so there's a little bit of relief, as well as the grief of the experience. But the other thing can happen too… In good, fantastic situations that we think of... when you think of someone getting married, it's like so exciting. And let's hope that it's the person that they're in love with, right, and they're getting married to this person, they're so excited! But… So there is this excitement about getting married, and this whole new experience, and a little bit of fear of, oh, I’m going to be losing where I was living, or my independence. Or maybe a person's with their families still, or maybe they're living independently. Either way, it's a change... So there's a little bit of fear, as well as the excitement. So that's a conflicting emotion, which would then, in this process, be called grief... And then recovering over grief… where most people think about, I just got to get over this. It's not so much about this recovering, because it is an impact on the body. And if you think of this conflicting emotion, can you imagine how many we're all carrying? So whether we're starting a new job, that can be a grief situation. Let go of the old job, but I'm in a new job. And even if it's all very exciting, there's still that loss of the old job. Then there's the… I had a great relationship with my boss and my old workplace. And now this boss and I don't get along… So another grief... But it's thing after thing, after thing. So even starting school and finishing school... The starting of a school is like something exciting, but fearful because it's something new. And then the finishing of school is so exciting to be finishing. But what am I going to do now? All of those things are grief situations. So everyone is carrying quite a bit of grief from this perspective…

SAMIA: Yes. You're so... You're so right about that. You're so right about that. I mean, we carry conflicting emotions all the time. And I think this is truly, like, when it comes to mental health, when it comes to emotional intelligence, I think this is a point of struggle for, like, so many people, that when they have conflicting emotions, they don't know how to go about processing them, or even feeling about the fact that they have conflicting emotions and how to manage them. And things like that... So can you… can you tell me a little bit more about your perspective, maybe on the role of emotions? You know, I mean…

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HANIFA: I would love to expand on that. Actually, it's a beautiful question, Samia. So I believe I'm understanding the direction. If I take a different direction, you remind me what you really mean then, okay? So if, in my interpretation, I've understood correctly, this whole idea of emotions… we haven't… Many people have not really been trained about their emotions anyways. So it's something that we just kind of… oh, yeah, well, people have sadness, people have happiness. So it's just taken as... it's part of life, and you'll learn how to deal with it as you go on. And we can. But not many people are shown the importance of it… of understanding our emotion. So then when we're actually at a space where we actually want to understand, it's usually at a time of crisis... So… I'm so sad… let's say in a grief situation… I need to know how to work with this. And then we just focus on sadness. And this is the thing about Grief Recovery, we don't look at just sadness. We look at sadness and joys. We look at sadness or anxiety. We can look at worry, we can... There's all these different emotions that are coming up as this grief picture. And that conflicting emotion, again, that you were right in mentioning emotional intelligence, because once we're understanding emotions, then we can learn from them... You know, I would love to direct people… It's so ironic. I'm just in the middle of writing an article and I will give just a little bit of direction to any of your listeners… anyone who has not read a particular poem by Rumi called “The Guesthouse”, I would strongly encourage that. And in this, the whole idea is about being welcoming to each guest, as emotions, that come to us… so each one that's flowing through... If we have resistance at the door, believe me, we will definitely see that visitor again. Or the visitor will just be standing outside our door the whole time... So unless we're actually acknowledging this is here and welcoming it… because it's our fear that holds us back from that too, right... that… what if I can't handle anxiety? What if I can't handle grief? What if I can't… that sort of idea. But no one says that about joy or happiness, right?

SAMIA: Yes. 

HANIFA: Recognize emotions... We recognize emotions are all transient, they come, they go. But to be able to manage them, and actually to learn from them, and to actually move forward that, okay, now if we understand that grief is affecting all of us, can I be more compassionate to someone else who's going through a completely different grief than me? Right... So they've lost a parent, I've lost a parent… I haven't… But if that has happened, and not recently, that has happened, we know that this is the whole idea of, it's okay for them to handle it in this way. This is their connection with their parents, this is their way of dealing… Some people will go to the cemetery regularly to visit a parent that's buried. Another person might rather not visit or perhaps they had a cremation. And there's all sorts of judgments that people put into all of these things too, rather than just acknowledging that this is how this person is working through their grief. This is how, and it's okay... We've stopped being okay about differences, right. And this is what happens in our lives… as we become more and more particular about… things should be this way, that’s how I see it, that’s how you should see it… that's what creates more conflict in the world.

SAMIA: Right... And the limiting beliefs… because they think things can only be the this way... Yes…

HANIFA: Yes. We come back to this idea of loss and grief in a family... Everyone... it could be five siblings that lose that parent. And each sibling is going to handle it slightly differently. And often right within this family, each sibling is judging another… they shouldn't be thinking about this this long, they should be over it by now. Or they should come with me to the cemetery… or whichever way, right… So all of these things, that even within a family, if we can see this, we can see how we're affecting each other nationally, internationally… same thinking…

SAMIA: It's so true... And our emotions are such a powerful impact on our thinking. And vice versa… Like, our thinking has a very powerful impact on our emotions, and our emotions have a powerful impact on our thinking. So they're definitely sort of like feeding each other. And so, you know, when it comes to the judgment piece... being aware of our emotions, and how they're impacting our emotions is so critical, because you can't even really begin to change your thoughts around an issue unless you are also, you know, managing your feelings around it and shifting your feelings around it, in so far as they may need to be shifted in order to shift the mindset. Because there's no way you can begin to think a different way about something unless you're also able to begin to feel a different way about it…

HANIFA: Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think we’re expanding into a lot of different areas… If we're looking at Grief Recovery, I know it's almost like it's a narrowed-down way of looking even though it seems more expansive, right... It seems like, okay, we're looking at all emotions, or we're even expanding beyond... So if we look at emotions in general, and we think, oh, if I can change my emotions… That's very much how a medical model would look at it, right? That, okay, we need to get over fear, we need to get over grief, or we need to know how to manage this. And we don't think that way about happiness or joy, right... But they're both emotions. So again, when I come back to that reference of… for me… this idea of these emotions, they come and they go, and if we can just give them some attention, right… that's what we do... Like, it doesn't take anyone to tell us to give happiness attention, because when it's here we are really excited about it. But when we've got sadness or grief, we give it a lot of… less than positive attention. We will judge ourselves, as you said… we were talking about judgment… that we’ll judge ourselves. But then we’ll judge others about it too... right? But/so then we look at thought too… And I know you know, this is my world... so I'm making sure that I'm sharing with your clients as much as possible. And it's a lot of information. But when we think about thought… if we can remember that thought today is based on my experience yesterday... My thought today is based on my experience yesterday, which shapes how I think today. Today’s thought is yesterday filtering through this present moment to a projection into the future... So when I think of changing my thoughts, unless I'm able to clear my mind of my past thought, I'm just carrying along the past to my future.

SAMIA: Right. Right. That is so true, that is so true... So like, in the way that I might frame that is… our thoughts are basically a result of the beliefs that we hold, and our beliefs are formed on the basis… primarily on the basis of our experiences. So I see I'm on board with you about that. And I also, you know… I think the thing I would love to dig deep with you right now, is this idea that you bring up about when we have… what we generally think of as the positive emotions like happiness and joy… you're so right that we take them for granted, in the sense that you were saying, that we don't feel the need to pay attention to them. And you know, we don't think about... Yeah, it's just like, oh, I'm happy, so it's fine. You know, but for sure, for sure, like, as a happiness expert, that is something that I am always working on for myself and with my clients where I'm like, no, we really do need to pay attention to when we're feeling happy, when we're feeling joy, when we're feeling peace, when we're feeling calm. Because all of these emotions are in fact giving us signals as well of what we're doing right. And what our mind or body or heart needs us to do more of… because just as we need to pay attention to what not to do, we need to pay attention to what to do. That is really... It actually… this reminds me of, you know, in our Scripture, the Quran… that's the scripture for the Muslims, you know, it... So often when it talks about doing good, it also talks about don't do evil… and don't do evil and do good. So it's like, you can't just not do evil, you also have to do good. Or you can just do good. You also have not do evil.

HANIFA: Yeah… they are two sides of one coin… Yeah…

SAMIA: Yes. And it also actually makes me think about a more specific story that's more specifically related to the emotional aspect of things and the point you were making before... And this is a story related to a scholar whose name I cannot remember. But the story goes something like this… that the scholar was actually with a group of his students, and he was teaching, and some person came from outside. And they went up to the teacher, this scholar… and they said something in the person's ear. And the scholar took a pause... And he seemed to like give a moment of reflection on something… silently… he didn’t say anything. And then he proceeded to teach his class. And then, after some time went by, this person came back into room, went to the scholar, said something in their ear... And once again, the scholar seemed to take a moment, like, took a pause and seemed to take a moment to reflect on something and then just continued to teach. And after class was over, some of the students asked the scholar, would you mind sharing with us what happened? When this person came in, what did they say? What were you thinking about? Like, what was going on there? Would you mind sharing with us? And so the scholar was, like, I'm happy to tell you. So, he says… the first time the person came, he gave me news that a trade ship that I had invested in, sank. And, you know… so basically... I, you know, and like, all of my investment basically sank with it, right. So big loss... And he said, in that moment, as I processed the news, I was checking how I was feeling about it. And after a moment of reflection, I noticed or I realized that because… that I was able to feel calm about the situation because I've trust in God, that God will take care of everything... And so I moved on and, you know, we continued with our class. And then the second time that the person came, he gave the news that there had been a mistake made, and it was not my ship, not my investments that sank, it was some other ship. And my ship and my investments are actually just fine... And so in this case also as I heard the news, I processed the news, and I reflected, I mean... I was noticing how I was feeling. And, and I was, you know, satisfied to note that in this instance, also, I was able to reach a place of calm feeling, because I trust God and believe that, you know, God is taking care of everything and all will be well.

HANIFA: That’s beautiful. That's it... and that's how life is, isn’t it? And that's a beautiful story, Samia. Thank you for sharing it. And that’s the truth about life isn't it… that to have that steadiness no matter what arises… is beautiful. And so many different ways to look at the emotions that most people would go through in either of those times… right… that disappointment and then the elation, right... So very easy for anyone to relate to that… oh, how would I feel in that situation? And yeah, most people would show a lot more emotion in that. But it takes a steady mind to be that even tempered in both, right? 

SAMIA: Right. I mean, there's that, that you want to cultivate the steady mind… but also the idea of not getting attached to either emotion, whether it's the shock and the grief of loss, or whether it's the elation and joy of, oh, everything's fine, I'm still rich, or, you know, whatever... Because now I'm thinking about, you know, another thing that we talk a lot about in the context of my work as a Happiness Expert, is… you know, so many people have this mindset of chasing happiness where… I mean, ultimately, I do believe that to… that... We all want and desire to be happy and peaceful in our lives. But a lot of times people have this mindset of chasing happiness, chasing the good life. And so because they have this mindset, they're always, you know, trying to figure out what's that next thing, the next thing, and the next thing, that's going to help them feel happy. And in that quest, they actually go far astray and end up doing all kinds of things that have the opposite impact, that actually end up compromising their ability to experience happiness now... and/or even actually for that matter, achieving happiness in the future… because it's like, that's just not a happiness-promoting mindset. So even to get attached to, like… in this way of… where you're, like, not okay with not feeling happy... it… it can, it can create problems...

HANIFA: Yes, it can, it can... Attachment for sure… and I think you mentioned the two words, "want and desire," which are pretty powerful words too... So if someone is in a space of wanting or in a space of desire, yes, it doesn't bring the awareness of satisfaction that's already there. So this is certainly what, in our world, we've encouraged, supported, created… all of that, right... So in that, it's an important understanding for us to have about the human psyche… and just understand it. But yeah, it's definitely... so that's good. Like, I think you're doing fantastic work in terms of Happiness... And then, in terms of… just so it's clear, in Grief Recovery, it's not so much about getting to happiness and pulling away from grief, but… so, just so that's clear… but recognizing that both are happening simultaneously, for sure...

SAMIA: Yes, yes... Exactly! And like you said… to appreciate both and to listen to the message that each is trying to give you… because what we talk about in my work is that every emotion is there to give you some feedback on, you know, what you're needing... And so in the context of what we might term negative emotions, you're getting feedback of something that you need or like a need that's not being met. And so your heart, your mind, your body… they're trying to give you a clue about what to do or what direction to move in so that you can meet that need that's not being met. And like I was saying earlier, with the positive emotions, the feedback is, hey, we want more of this, you know… So it's just about listening to that feedback and, you know, honoring it, and doing what you can to be guided by this feedback because, you know… to have that trust that your body knows what it needs, that your inner self, your heart, can guide you towards what it needs... And that you know, really that inner guidance, is the most trustworthy guidance for you…

HANIFA: Thanks for that, Samia. It's again, it sounds really good… from what I hear about the happiness focus, in my understanding of it… and again, this might not be the understanding that you're trying to convey… it sounds very straightforward, it sounds very much like psychology to me, like… or Psychotherapy… because it's very much about understanding of this emotion… again used to utilize as giving us direction… that sort of idea... And then in grief recovery... yes, emotion… I would say that it looks at it more as a totality… which I would think faith does too... So Faith looks at everything in the totality. So even the story that you shared, I think that was very much about the totality… that if we look at that whole story together, we can see that, yeah, neither the good nor the not-so-good stayed. It was all that total experience of…

SAMIA: Yeah.

HANIFA: …this happened, right…

SAMIA: Yeah.

HANIFA: And I also think that one of the things that a lot of people are not so aware of… So rather than seeing the totality, because it always seems like it's too much… so if I can narrow it down and break it down into pieces… this is the microcosm of the human individual experience reflecting the macrocosm of the world around us... When we thought about that… remember that the world was one world, and then we created division, right? We had created, like, here's this country and this country… And this is what we do in terms of emotions in ourselves… So in terms of, here’s my happiness, here's my sadness, right... that… we stopped even looking at ourselves as complete... If I treat this part of my body, I treat depression… If I’m treating depression that also treats sleep, or… that sort of idea. 

SAMIA: Yeah.

HANIFA: So we became very compartmentalized. 

SAMIA: Yes, yes… I take that point very well from you... And yes, when I talk about emotions, you're right… I am pulling into or from my learning in the context of positive psychology training… And at the same time, I do recognize there are different frames. One of the things I do appreciate about even the positive psychology framing and understanding of emotions is that… especially, like in the context of thinking about happiness, for example… positive psychology research recognizes that in order for us to be happy in a sustainable way, where, you know, we can sustain our happiness, we can be in control of our happiness... it's not just about one thing… there are at least five different pillars of mental health that have been identified. And they include… you know like, the broad pillars... they include, you know, like an awareness of... and a paying of attention to your physical health for example. So you know… but then also another… there's another pillar of… we’re looking at, are you living life with a sense of meaning and purpose? Are you utilizing your strengths that you have? Are you living in a way that, you know, is authentic to your values and so forth... So that's like a whole pillar of mental health… Then the other pillars, you know, are about… do you have the skills and the knowledge to be resilient when the hard times hit? Because, you know, again it's an acknowledgment of the realities of our life, that not everything is always going to be, like, you know, a straight line or an upward line, in terms of just… what we perceive to be positive things happening all the time… or we will not always be experiencing what we label as positive emotions… And so when something happens that we perceive to be bad in our lives, like the sinking of the ship that carried all of my investments, how do you respond to that in the moment… But then also how do you be resilient in that moment? So that's like its own pillar. And then one of the pillars that I will highlight now is, that positive psychology also recognizes, is that of your sense of spiritual connection and spiritual development. And so like, when you take this kind of broader perspective of happiness and what it means to be happy and how you can be happy, I think it starts to move us in more of that direction that you have been highlighting for us with the grief recovery model of, you know, sort of looking at more of the totality of the situation and everything that we are and that we're experiencing.

HANIFA: Hmm... yeah definitely. Well, I hope so. I do believe… again it’s… again from… I can see the totality with those five pillars that you're utilizing, which is again what even Western medicine does, right?

SAMIA: Yes.

HANIFA: …even when we look at Western medicine for the longest time, it's been the mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual aspects... Yet, then when we actually look at the actuality of what's happening, often it is, first work with this and then work with this. So it becomes really differentiated…

SAMIA: Yes.

HANIFA: Just like someone… like I'm sure your clients, when you work with them, you're chatting with them about how to combine it all together, right… so that just feels like, okay, in this I'm doing all of it. And this is the same idea in terms of grief recovery too… that it’s the same… this is how we look at the whole thing… Even though we recognize that these different pieces are existing but it's still happening simultaneously, that sort of idea.

SAMIA: Yes, yes, yes.

HANIFA: …our mind’s not integrated it, right? We've become very dissociative in our thinking, in terms of… this is here… you know when we think about… I can talk about grief to my psychotherapist. I can talk about grief to my family. But when I'm at work, I can't talk about it. I can't think about it. And meanwhile, we're the same person in every situation that we're in, right. So if we've got this, we can actually manage at work and we can actually manage at home, because when I am working on this, this is what we're carrying…

SAMIA: Yes, oh, my gosh... that is such an excellent point… and now you've reminded me of a conversation I was having with one of my friends who is a trauma survivor herself and now is also doing amazing work as a Disability Justice person. And so we were having a conversation about Disability Justice in the context of the workplace… Because, like, in the context of Disability Justice work, we also recognize mental trauma or mental disorders, you know, that impact our lives, as forms of disability or that can have disabling impacts, I should say, on our lives. And so you know, for example, somebody who is a survivor of abuse, or other trauma, and they are still in that phase of, either they are currently going through the crisis, or in the very early stages of recovery from that crisis, their mental health is impacted by that. And that impacts not only their life at home, but it's also impacting their life at work... And what happens in the context of Disability Justice work is that, exactly like you were saying, there's this expectation in society of compartmentalization... that you leave behind whatever is happening in your personal life outside of work… that when you are at work you just focus on work. But it's not really, really possible, especially when you're dealing with… I mean, if what you're dealing with at home is... or the issues or the challenges you're dealing with, if they're relatively mild maybe you can leave that behind when you're at work. But when there's a major... when you're experiencing a major trauma, you know, and struggling to recover from that, it is going to impact every area of your life. And you cannot leave it out... Yeah.

HANIFA: What's interesting, Samia, who's determining whether it's mild or not…

SAMIA: I mean… yes, so…

HANIFA: So it brings out a lot, right, when you even say this… in my opinion, anyway…

SAMIA: Yes.

HANIFA: I get it… in terms of when we look at, you know, insurances would cover a certain amount… in terms of… the workplace itself will look at things from its own perspective. The family may or may not be forgiving of… now you’re spending more time at work, and you're supposed to be here… so that… who measures that trauma or that strain or that… right... So even when there is someone who is very clearly going through a grief thing, like a mother who has lost a child, when that happens... Excuse me, let me take one more sip of water here... When a mother has lost a child and then a sibling has lost a sibling, who determines who is affected more? Right? So when we’re looking at how we think about this… this is why, when we're looking at how society is shaping itself, we're not just doing things purely out of compassion. So then what happens, that person knows that they can get, potentially, some compassion maybe for compassionate leave or sick leave. Let's say everyone's aware that, oh, no one wants a diagnosis… we know this. And yet, you look at why depression and anxiety are the highest diagnosed conditions right now? How much of it is… this IS actually happening? How much of it is that the mind is leading itself to that space because it needs that break from work so badly?

SAMIA: Yeah.

HANIFA: And this is what we as a society have said… well, if someone has this, then they can have time off…

SAMIA: Exactly, exactly, exactly. That's exactly what my friend was trying to highlight and that this is a problem, this way of thinking… because ultimately... I guess, yes… and so the fact that, again, we should not sit in judgment of either our emotions or other people's emotions. I mean, especially like other people's emotions… When it comes to our relationships… it's like how can you even begin to judge someone else's emotions... You can't feel what they're feeling. You can't… you don't… you cannot experience what they're experiencing… so how can you judge it? It doesn't make a lot of sense… it's like…

HANIFA: It's very normal… has become very normalized, though, right? I believe it has. I think because we're not starting with understanding compassion for ourselves, then we're not so compassionate towards others either. So when we fully understand our own experiences, not to be selfishly understanding, but understanding that, wow, this is a huge impact on me in all of these ways… Now I can actually understand someone else too... When we don't even understand ourselves… and what's the time being given to understand ourselves? The only time we give to understanding ourselves is when crises hit, right? 

SAMIA: Yeah. 

HANIFA: It's… and then that's become the cycle in life…

SAMIA: Yes... 

HANIFA: ..finish this, understand this, and then get to the emotions. Now you've done this X, Y, Z, now you can work on… THIS is almost the fun time… NOW you get to understand emotions… which is really, I mean, it's always been part of the totality of the picture.

SAMIA:  Yes. 

HANIFA:  It’s what society is shaping us to, right? That we can see that, wow, with so much grief in the entire world, we're all taking this on. Whether we see it in TV, whether we see it in… hear it in the radios, we watch it in movies… all of these things. And we're also less sensitive to it too... Because there was so much of it.

SAMIA: Yes. 

HANIFA: Right… so when we are able to watch movies that have  so much aggression and violence, we become less sensitive to it. So that in every city, when we hear about how many murders have happened in a month, no one's surprised anymore, almost any numbers, to see that. And it's just kind of a way of life... Now when we're not even aware of that outside of us, we're certainly not aware of that inside of us too. It's going both ways.

SAMIA: Yes.

HANIFA: If we get that, that awareness within ourselves, oh, we'll have that compassion then stepping out into the world, which makes a big difference... 

SAMIA: Yes, ah…

HANIFA: So much! We’ve expanded so much, Samia... Do you think that we've overwhelmed the listeners?

SAMIA: I mean... It's probably a good idea for us to wrap up for today. It's just that you keep bringing up so many excellent points, I can't help myself from asking the next question and the next question… But you're right... Let's move towards wrapping up for today. Do you have any last thoughts or words you'd like to share? 

HANIFA: I'd love to share the fact that working through grief, which would mean Grief recovery, I mean, grief recovery is just a term, but if anyone who is watching is understanding that we're carrying a lot of conflicting emotions within ourselves... when we can look at things equally, we will look from within ourselves equally and look outside ourselves equally, and that I believe can bring the peace to ourselves and to the world around us that we are All deserving. 

SAMIA: Indeed... So on that very positive, hopeful, and wise note, we will wrap up for today. And for my last reminder, I will remind you, who's listening, to please make sure you check the show notes because we will be adding Hanifa's links in the show notes so you can reach out to her and learn even more from her, get some help and support, whenever you're ready for it. And until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy.

HANIFA: Namaste, everyone. :)

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