SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet! It's really, really amazing to be with you again… and oh, I'm so happy that you have joined us today. We have a very special guest. It's Hans Schumann... He is a lawyer turned career and life coach, and he helps you create a life that feels exciting and fulfilling. I love that. Welcome, Hans…

HANS: Well, welcome, Samia, thank you for having me on your podcast. Really great to be here.

SAMIA: Yes. So happy to have you with us. And please tell us more about who you are and what you do…

HANS: Right. Yes, I mean, I'm German born as you may get from my German accent, but I have been living in London for 25 years. And for most of my life, I've been doing something completely different... I was a lawyer, first in a private practice law firm, and then in a bank. And I had a big burnout that really prompted me to reevaluate what I really want to do with my life. That was my mid-40s... And I connected to something that has been a thread throughout my life - personal growth. I've always been fascinated by understanding how people function… talking about problems and deep themes in people's lives. And I thought what kind of job would allow me to do all of this and get paid for it. And that's coaching... So I've been a coach for eight years now. And I started very much as a career coach, helping people find a new career that they enjoy, but it has become much bigger than that. It's basically about understanding how do we function and how we are more effective in living the life that we want.

SAMIA: That is so cool. And so interesting. And I believe you have a really cool model, or like the way that you sort of help your clients crack the code of who they are, as it were. Can you tell me more about that?

HANS: Yeah. I call it crack the code of who you are because very often we don't really know how we function. Just think of your phone, you probably know more about your mobile phone than about how your brain works... You know there are apps on your phone, and you update them regularly, and you delete some that you no longer need... Well, we have very complex with devices, but human beings as well, and we also have lots of programs… but most of us don't really know what my programs. And am I still running on all programs from my childhood that don't really serve me... So if we want to be, well, that's my view... if we want to be effective in hitting our life and career goals, it's important that we really understand how we function, because there may be programs that hold us back. Procrastination, fears, doubts, self-sabotage... and what you refer to as "Crack the code of who you are" is a process that helps me very quickly to understand how does the client function and help the client understand how they function... It's a little bit like getting a manual… they get a report, which is like a manual that tells them, "These are the instructions manual to you". And this is then the start of a coaching journey... 

SAMIA: That is so cool.

HANS: This is not my invention. It has been actually around for 1000s of years and other quarters use it too. And I've decided to make this the main pillar of my coaching system. It's called the Enneagram... And it's a system of archetypes… of archetypes of personality. It's built around the diagram… and I'm going to show this on the screen here… share the screen. I know not everybody will be able to see the diagram because you may be listening via audio. It's basically a circle that identifies nine archetypes of personality, and they have names like Strict Perfectionist, or Adaptive Peacemaker. And what they represent… they represent defense mechanisms that we once created as a child. When we were little, we were completely dependent on adults for our survival and we made up a strategy, or who we thought we needed to be to get through life... We kind of subconsciously decided… it's no longer enough to just be me. I need to help a little bit. I need to be somebody different. And that's how we create a personality... And understanding the progress, and how we end up at any of these archetypes, and how that sometimes backfires, is really a quantum leap in emotional growth. And this diagram helps... it's a map… Because the lines that you see connecting the types, they suggest growth journeys… point to other types from which we can learn.

SAMIA: Can you maybe…

HANS: ...give an example?

SAMIA: Yeah, that would be so wonderful.

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HANS: Yeah, for example, if we take the type one, the strict perfectionist, that would have been a little boy or girl that decided, something isn't quite right here... I think I need to help a little bit to be safe here. And I think the best way to get through this, I just do what I'm told. If surely, if I follow what people want from me, I follow rules, I'm a good girl, a good boy, then I avoid criticism… and criticism isn't safe…. and that will get me through life. And that can create a person that is very… has a high value on integrity, following rules, high quality standards, but also a little bit rigid, you know… things are black and white, right and wrong. And they can be quite self critical... Nothing is ever good enough, because they have a high standard of perfectionism. So perfectionism has a quite tough experience of life... Because constantly they have the experience… either I'm not good enough, or others are not, or the world isn't good enough. And that leads to a constant level of frustration, and an anger that they then suppress, because anger is also regarded not as appropriate by this particular archetype. So how can this archetype grow? There are lots of different ways. And the lines that you see across the diagram, they show two key ones. And one of the lines is from the type one to the type seven… what’s called the enthusiastic visionary. So that's a type which is almost the opposite. That type would have decided in his or her childhood… you know the best way to deal with all of this is, I don't deal with it. I just distract myself because I don't need to deal with this problem. I just have fun, adventures... I think myself out of it. I fantasize, I dream... And this makes a very creative person… very enthusiastic, visionary, very good at generating ideas. And that is something that a strict perfectionist could benefit from… Rather than being stuck in the rigidity of black and white, right and wrong, seeing all the shades of gray… they can learn that from the type seven.. Okay, A doesn't work, B doesn't work, no matter... We can do C, D and E... And let's have some fun also. And rules are there to be banned. Let's be a little bit more flexible. And equally the same applies the opposite… a type seven can learn from the type one. Rather than jumping around, having more projects than they can ever digest and put more on their plate than they can actually eat, having a little bit of laser focus, following something through from the beginning until the end…

SAMIA: Yes… that is such an interesting, interesting way to kind of think about it… it makes me think about this book I was reading... Oh my gosh, I'm blanking on the name of it... But it used a different model… but it was sort of like similar in the sense that it was identifying on the one hand, like, major… sort of patterns or challenges that people can deal with. And then on the other side, it was like, Okay, so if you have this pattern, and this set of challenges that seem to crop up over and over in your life, then here is a pattern of behavior that if you work towards cultivating that it can help solve your issues. And in that book, interestingly, they also took a very sort of spiritual approach to this whole topic. And so they were talking about it from the perspective of… know that we all come on this earth with a purpose… and the purpose has to do with learning whatever certain lessons that we need to learn. And so that is why, you know, we tend to come with personalities and life circumstances that sort of put us in these situations where these types of challenges and problems seem to keep cropping up. And really, that's to give us the opportunity to learn how to solve those problems…

HANS: Yeah. And obviously, the Enneagram is just one model. And lots of people have models in different ways to achieve the same result... And the Enneagram is really also a spiritual tool… I don't really talk on it like that, to make it easier for people to connect to it... I look at it more as a human behavioral, psychological tool. But you're right. In the end, it is about returning also to who we really are… the true essence behind the personality... Personality comes from the Latin word persona, which means a mask... It's something that we chose to show the world to get through and be protected. But there is something else behind that. And sometimes when we ask ourselves, why am I like this? Why am I defensive or snappy? Why am an unkind? Often it is really just a defense. And we are very different behind that. And what I often say is, evolution has optimized us for survival, not for emotional balance and happiness. We react to difficult situations often as if it was a life and death situation. And a part of our brain reacts… can’t differentiate between an office conflict and a tiger attacking us... And we either fight, flight or freeze in different manifestations. And becoming more aware of when we do this, and that we actually have a choice… we don't always need to react in the same way… can be really life-changing.

SAMIA: Yes… that is such a good point you're making… that our brains optimized for survival as opposed to other goals and values that we may also really... not only, like, need, but like value… Like for me, I know one of my deepest needs that I have always been aware of, for as long as I can remember, and therefore also my strongest value, is my need for inner peace and my value for cultivating peace… both in the context of my own life and emotions, but also in my environment... And that has been such a hugely driving factor… But I can see how that has conflicted in my life with my need to protect myself and my survival instincts… like fighting with that need for peace... So, you know, I've definitely seen my value and need for peace coming in conflict with my survival instinct. You know, like for example, the way that I more recently… in the recent years became aware of this was, you know, as a happiness expert, I have literally, for the last so many years of my life been really focusing on cultivating a mindset and, you know, just beliefs, and feelings, and behaviors that are really about optimizing my ability to maintain a happy mood, a peaceful mood, and all of that. And a big aspect of that is to have a empathetic and compassionate perspective on life and on other people. Because if I get judgmental in my relationships for example, it's really difficult to maintain peace and happiness for myself or in my relationships. And so I know that… but on the other hand, you know, where that comes in conflict with my survival instinct is, if I perceive or judge someone to be engaging in abusive behavior towards me, then immediately my survival instinct takes over... And I'm like, I have to protect myself. I'm not going to allow anyone to abuse me. I cannot allow anyone to abuse me. And so, you know, that… that quest to protect myself sort of takes over. And I'm no longer... And it's like… not that I'm no longer able to… but it becomes really challenging for me… it's like something that I recognized about myself… that it becomes really challenging for me to maintain my empathy and compassion towards the other person. And I just, you know, just get so like… Oh, no, this person's behavior is abusive, and I cannot allow this, I cannot, you know, allow myself to get abused …like, you know, that, that thinking takes over... And it really does compromise, not only in the moment, my inner peace, but also my ability to engage in the most compassionate, loving ways with other person…

HANS: Yeah, that makes total sense. And I see another dimension to that.. that is, sometimes to get to the peace we need to embrace conflict... There's one type here at the top is called the Adaptive Peacemaker. And they overdo the peace thing a bit. Their main focuse is, I want to have peace and harmony. And that makes them avoid conflicts, and speaking up for what they really want and think… and they go along with what other people want. And after a while, they feel controled. I'm not saying that's you, I'm just gonna use it as an example…

SAMIA: Actually, that happened with me too... That used to happen… and so I think, like, in some ways, as I tried to grow out of that, you know, I started to overcompensate on the other side… maybe, maybe…

HANS: Yeah.  And for this particular archetype, the growth journey is… the more I’m trying to avoid conflict, the more conflict that actually creates... because it doesn't go away.

SAMIA: Yeah.

HANS: It works below the surface... And if I was to turn around, if I embrace constructive conflict, I actually get a much better peace and harmony. Just think about a relationship… if you don't discuss what your needs are because you don't want to upset the other person, they will never be met. And you probably become resentful. And then one day you just leave…

SAMIA: Yeah.

HANS: So in this model, it's not either/or. Sometimes it's important to fight. Sometimes it's important to flight. Sometimes it's important just to comply. And the resourcefulness and personal effectiveness comes from being more conscious... When am I doing this… when am I doing this on autopilot and it doesn't actually serve me… When would it be good to maybe switch to a different way of responding?

SAMIA: Yes. Oh, that is another really excellent point… it's that you need to recognize when you're doing something on autopilot versus when you're making a conscious choice with the understanding that, in this moment, this choice of behavior, or this choice of response is the best that I can do, or that I want to engage in, because of values that I have, etc... That is a great point.

HANS: And this is really what the symbol is about. If we don't understand those patterns, then we run through life like zombies. We don't even know that we play the same thing. For example, I might think if somebody insults me, obviously I shout back... that may be my pattern. I think this is the most normal way of reacting. But actually, I'm not really owning… you know there are different ways… I don't actually need to own this.

SAMIA: Yes.

HANS: I could… I could either withdraw, or I could have a spiritual view… look at the poor person… the poor person must be in pain... I could try to bring it back to an objective conversation... But we only have access to full choices if we've done the work to look… okay, what are my autopilot modalities at the moment…

SAMIA: Yes, that is such an excellent point... And makes me think of my next question for you. So, this is like such an amazing tool to sort of help raise awareness of our patterns and who we are… crack our code, as it were... What's the next step after you raise awareness to creating change?

HANS: Yeah, well, let me first say the awareness piece is massive... And most of my clients is… first, don't even try to change it. Just watch yourself as you're doing it, almost like a bystander. And watch all the outcomes that you create and what it cost you. And what that practice is… basically self-observation. And let me tell you why I think it's so important. What we are discussing right now is self-reflection. I revist things that have happened. And retrospectively I can kind of analyze it and come up with a different strategy… That doesn't really change anything unless I can catch myself in the moment. So the first step is to practice observing ourselves… that we notice, "Oh, this is what I discussed with my coach. I'm doing that again right now. Oh, interesting." So that's really the first step. And then for each type, there are specific growth pieces… the journey will be different for each type. So for the type one that we discussed, the strict perfectionist, some of that is about dealing with their anger. They often don't even know they have anger, because they suppress it... They think anger is inappropriate… but they're constantly angry because things are not as they think they should be. And this is just so annoying. And even though they're… they work so hard… And if somebody criticizes them, the little child comes out… But I’ve done everything that I was supposed to do and I'm still being criticized… And it's really hard for them... So accessing the anger and finding ways to express it is really helpful for them. Another, type one, specific growth piece would be looking at the standard of perfectionism. Each… each type has a trap in which they fall. And the trap of the type one, the strict perfectionist is, by trying to create perfect results, I play a game that I can never win... because nothing ever is perfect. And they don't even enjoy their success… because obviously I could have done better and I immediately also go to my next goal. And that leads to a cycle of frustration and anger. So again, a very specific growth piece. And then we talked about the lines... learning to think and behave a little bit like type seven… or the other line is to the type four… they're really attuned to their emotions… being able to sit with some of the unpleasant emotions like anger… not suppressing them, but really processing them and finding a way to deal with it. Or becoming more creative like a type four, they're called intensive creative... Finding a really good outlet that taps on all their resourcefulness that type ones don’t really access, although they have it, because they're too strict on their linear processes and their world views of right and wrong and black and white…

SAMIA: Ah, yes. You know, I definitely had a very strong strict perfectionist streak... And I think to a large extent, I've learned to, you know, tap into these enthusiastic visionary, and intense creative aspects of myself. And it's been very interesting actually… There are so many different kinds of, you know, like personality tests, and so forth. And I remember when I... there's this particular test called "True Colors", and it's a simplified version of the Myers Briggs actually. And so in this true colors version of the personality test, they basically categorize people in four major personality types... And I remember when I... the first time I took that test, I was a very clear green personality. And, you know, that had a lot of the strict perfectionist tendencies and so forth. And then a few years later, I took the test again, and I came out… my most dominant personality came out as blue… which is I guess in this model, probably is closest to… I don't know... I mean, it definitely has more of these... the maybe the… no wait… not considerate helper… I mean... it's just a very different model. But a blue is more of like a people's person. A blue is more spiritually oriented as opposed to intellectually oriented. And they're definitely more easygoing in most cases than the, you know, strict perfectionist, and so forth... And I could totally see that, like, if I compared my… myself… and even in the feedback that I receive from people in my life who knew me before and who know me now… I'm a very, very different person in so many ways. But interestingly, the person that I was taking the test with, when I shared this… that I used to be a really strong green and now the current result is showing that I'm a very strong blue… they were, they were surprised. And they were like, this is very unusual. And they said, most of the time blues and greens tend to be opposites. And you don't find one person who has both a really strong green streak and a really strong blue streak. And most people don't change their colors so much over the course of their life… it's fairly unusual... And I was like, Okay… I mean, I can kind of see that happening… like, a lot of people struggle in their lives to change the behavior patterns, and so forth... But do you have, like, any sense of... I mean, in this model, is it... like, how… I mean, is that just like natural and easy for people to have these growth journeys from, for example, being strict perfectionist to enthusiastic visionary or something like that? Or is it like considered... like, what's the perspective in this model on that point…

HANS: Just can go back to some of the things that you said… these tests that you mentioned, they all go back to the same Jungian model, which is quite different. And it looks at personality traits, which is different from the Enneagram. Although we also talk about traits, the differentiator between the two types is the core motivation… it's an intention... And behaviors obviously can change. In particular, if you're a shy person, but you start working in a corporation, you will probably learn to be a little bit more confident… you may learn to be more structured, more organized… and there may be a different layer above your core type. In the Enneagram world the view is you never ever change your type... But you become a more evolved version of the type... Because a journey of integration… what does it mean? It means you integrate aspects of other types as well… you have, you don't move away from your… from your core type. But you can tap into this, you have more tools available. And you have learned to manage or maybe even transcend the shadow side… the kind of darker side of your type… which they all have… like in the strict perfectionist, the anger… or the type eight has the lust… the type four, the envy… things that are really difficult to look at. But as we grow, this is where it becomes spiritual, we can become a more evolved version of that type…

SAMIA: Yeah, I really, I really like that… because I think this perspective that you're sharing is a lot more empowering than to have a perspective where you think of… "Oh, I have a personality type and it's really difficult to change." Because if you think it's difficult to change, then it's going to be difficult to change…

HANS: Yeah, also… when I work with the Jungian types… and I want to say... to say… they're all useful… all of them raise our emotional intelligence... But when I work with the Jungian tests, they often tell you things like… I’m introvert, I’m extrovert… I think, okay, so what? What does it... how does it help me? And if you look at the Enneagram type, each type could be an introvert or an extrovert, but for different reasons, and it really is useful to understand. The type one maybe an introvert because it's so exhausting to be always perfect and they deal with it by withdrawing and not always be with people. The type four maybe an introvert because they think, nobody really understands me, I don't belong... The type five may be an introvert because they think, leave me alone in my bubble, I want to have lots of time to understand and go into depth. A loyal skeptic, type six, may be an introvert because the world is perceived as dangerous, and I am safe in my bubble. But they could also be extroverts... What this model gives us is really understanding… how does it come that I live my life in this particular way?

SAMIA: Yes, yes. I really like that... I like it. I like it. So tell me a little bit more about the next step... So we have this awareness, this amazing understanding… and then… and then what happens/

HANS: Yeah, we first of all have a look at the full program process… people would take an online test or they'd do a typing interview with somebody who is certified like me, then they get a report, then you have the awareness, and then you create a growth strategy. We work on different pieces that we explained... There's so much to do… there's really work for… a life's work... And you kind of pick themes that are most relevant for you… And it also depends on your level of self-awareness… what makes most sense for you to work on? Because some things are a little bit more advanced than others. And ideally the practitioner makes it relevant to the life by talking… looking at specific, relevant life scenarios to help the client with an aim… and work with them to apply it and practice. Another dimension there is then also not to just understand your type, but also the other types. This is where it's really powerful for emotional intelligence and relationships… whether they are professional or personal… Because we kind of tend to look at the world through our lense and think others are stupid, they don't get it… The type one may think… obviously I'm right, because rules are right, you should follow rules. And everybody else is kind of an idiot, or reckless, or is rude… And the Enneagram helps us understand... Well, it looks different from the perspective of the other person and here, this is why… and actually you would do quite well looking through their lens from time to time because actually that may enrich your life experience and give you additional tools... So suddenly… let's assume you have a corporate, if you have a team, in an organization rather than judging each other, we realize, Oh, yeah, we are different and that's actually great. Because the more different perspectives we have, the better solutions can really… we find. So rather than judging, we allow each person to do their magic…

SAMIA: Yes. Oh, I love that... I love that… And definitely when we're thinking about making change fun and easy, whether it's in the context of personal change or in our relationships, having that understanding and that appreciation of the diversity that exists among us is so, so cool... Yay!

HANS: I found that really powerful for my relationship. The whole compassion piece… and becoming a little bit humble by understanding… Oh, yeah, actually that's also a good way to live life, and to look at life, and how great is that… When I'm out with type sevens, for example, I have much more fun than on my own... And they loosen me up a little bit. And in business I'm a type four. And I had a business project with somebody who was type three… They're very competitive, and they are really good at selling and marketing. And I'm not strong in that. I'm always shy… can I really say this about my brand… And it's good to have a little bit of type 3 energy. And we complemented each other good... I was more bringing in the authenticity, the content, the creativity… and he made us really stand out powerfully on the market and sharing confidently what we have to offer. So working with other types, rather than just working with the same types, is really good for effectiveness of any kind of team…

SAMIA: Yes. Oh, I love that... So that's another great insight… And, Hans, I'm sorry to say, we are running out of time for today…

HANS: Its been a real pleasure.

SAMIA: Oh, my gosh. Do you have any last thoughts you would like to share with us?

HANS: I'd really encourage everybody to go on this kind of journey… whether you use the Enneagram or something else… really understanding yourself... what drives me? What values? What fears? What motivation? It's a fascinating journey. And also showing an interest in other people. What drives them? And what have… what are their fears, their dreams, and objectives? And it's a journey that really makes us more self-aware, more emotionally intelligent, and empowers us to be more effective in creating the life outcomes that we want.

SAMIA: Exactly. I love that. I love that… and thanks again so much, Hans, for being with us today and sharing all of that amazing wisdom. And for those of you who are listening or watching this, please make sure you check the show notes… because we will be dropping Hans links in there so you can connect with him and learn more with him and from him. And yes, until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy. :)