SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet! It's so amazing to be with you again. And you know what, you're gonna be so happy you're joining us today because we have such a cool guest... And our guest today is Kat Nieh. And she is a Dating Clarity Coach. Welcome Kat… 

KAT: Hi, hello, everyone. Thank you so much Samia for having me. And I'm so excited to share with the audience how to manifest and co-create the love they always wanted…

SAMIA: Yay. Awesome, awesome, awesome... So Kat, you please tell us more about who you are and what you do?

KAT: Yeah, so like you shared earlier, I'm a Dating Clarity Coach, so I help my clients who are dating, single, right, or early stages of dating, to get clear about who and what they want in a relationship, in order to really find the one that they really want, and also co-create that relationship that they've always desired.

SAMIA: Oh, I love that. I love that. And can you tell me a little bit more about… like this... clarity piece? You being a dating clarity coach... Yeah. Tell me more about that.

KAT: Yeah. So you know, that's why I called myself a dating clarity coach. So not just any kind of dating coach, because there's plenty of, you know, dating and relationship advice out there… that are amazing and great... But what I found more effective, is actually take a step back and get clear first, like from within, right, to figure out who is it that I truly want in a relationship? What does that really look like? And what do I need to really feel fulfilled and loved and happy? And that's where I came out with this clarity aspect of it, of creating a love vision first, right. So I have a guided journal that I released recently, and to really help people with that, to you know, create a really clear love vision. So it makes it easier for them to go out. And when they're dating, there's less of, well, I'm not sure what I really want, or, I don't know sure how to talk to this person, I don't know if we have an alignment or, you know, is this really what I want… like because when people start dating, they can get swayed. I'm like, Well, I like this person. So maybe what they want is what I want to. So it's like removing all those doubts, removing all those uncertainties, to get so clear about who and what they want in a relationship... So it makes dating so much more easier. And even when you're in the relationship at such an early stage of people figuring out... Are we in alignment? I really… is this really a good fit? When you have that clarity, it's so much easier to have those conversations… hey, this is what I'm looking for. This is what I need. This is what I want. And is it something that you could fulfill? And is this a relationship you want to create together?

SAMIA: Yes, oh, my gosh, this is so important. You just made me think about maybe like a different dozen movies that I've seen where the theme is, people are confused, you know, and they get into all kinds of trouble. And there's all kinds of drama that gets created. Like, for example, with all these love triangle plots in movies where, because people don't have clarity about what they really need, and what they really want… And actually thinking about these scenarios, it's so interesting that you mentioned both getting clear on what you need and what you want. Because sometimes those two things are not the same…

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KAT: There's a difference with it too. Because there's also other influences, right... There's our society influences, cultural influences, family influence, even friends thinking like, well, this is what you should… who and what you should be dating, right... Like, this is what your relationship should look like. And so we’re looking around us for other relationship models. We assume what those models… those… what we see is, that's what a relationship is, right. And I find it really sad, which is what I really want to help change is that… I feel like as you're in a relationship, your relationship should get better. It should improve, it should deepen, it should connect even more… Not kind of deteriorate or kind of feel like, oh, this is just what it is. Or people just kind of get stagnant or just kind of give up in the relationship. And I find that really sad... That's why I'm doing what I'm doing… to really help people figure out what is it they really want, to find that true alignment. And if you find that misalignment, actually learn how to have a conversation with your partner to go… this is what I'm looking for, this is what I want… and have those levels of open and safe and transparent communication of, like I said, what you need and want in relationships…

SAMIA: Yes, yes, yes... Oh my gosh, when it comes to society, in terms of the expectations that we feel pressured to live by, oh my god, that is such a… I mean, wow…

KAT: Yeah, I totally understand that…

SAMIA: …such a big problem. 

KAT: Yeah, I totally understand that. And I think that's where… that's why this process is so unique and so personalized, right... Like, I… That's why I created this kind of journal of like asking all these prompts, all these questions, about different aspects of your life, to really get a holistic view of what is that you really need and want... Like, when you take away what your parents think you should have, take away what society feels like you should be doing right now at whatever age you're at, or you know, whatever your friends feel like you should be… or seeing your friends, if you’re like, well, they're dating that, that type of person, maybe I should do the same... When you take away those external influences, you really figure out what is in your heart and your soul and what you're looking for... That's the most important part. Because every relationship is different. You can't just look at one relationship go like, I want to model that exactly. And do exactly that. Because there's so much behind the door, behind the scenes that you don't see... And that's how you figure out what it is what you want for yourself, is that clarity first. And then you also have those conversations and then be able to figure out like, Okay, this is important to me, these are my non-negotiables, these are my relationship values that are important to me, that I really want to honor… and that's where the guide comes out, where it goes like, Okay, this is my value. But what does that value look like for me? Because my value and someone else's value might be the same word. But it could be totally different, right. Like it could show up in a very different way. So when you figure out what is my own particular formula, then it's easy to say, "Hey, this is how I show up, this is how I need to be loved. Can you do that for me?" Right…

SAMIA: Yes. Oh, my gosh... Yes, yes. Can you help me dig a little deeper in this idea of, like, how do you even begin to get more clear about... So you used the word non-negotiables... You know, versus everything else... How... What are non-negotiables? I mean, we know what non-negotiables are… they are non-negotiables... But in a relationship context, how do I figure out what truly I should be like, this is non-negotiable… because, you know, there's so much concern that I know I've experienced, and I've seen my friends struggle with, in terms of, you know, like, when we have created some kind of standard or vision that we're, like, trying to hold on to in terms of our search for that ideal partner, and then being told… Oh, no, you're setting your standards too high, you're being too specific, you’ll never get a partner, you will never be able to find a person who is such a perfect fit... And yeah, you know, this is like such a constant feedback when I know I have been in conversations about, these are my standards, that it can really trigger self-doubt, and be like, "Am I really doing a smart thing by setting all these standards and expectations about who I want?"

KAT: Yeah, absolutely. I totally get where you're coming from. And that's... I hear a lot of people experience that. And what I want to share with everyone listening is that when people tell you that it's because they have their own baggage, limiting beliefs, their own vision, or their own perspective of what a relationship looks like for them. And oftentimes, when you go out there and say, "This is what I'm looking for, this is what I want", that challenges what they believe in, right. They believe in, well I can’t… you know, all the good men or women are taken, you know what… like, whatever relationship happens that always deteriorates after… like, you know, people only invest in you know... only put the best foot forward in the beginning. All those like beliefs are actually what creates the problems because people believe in it and they just reenact that pattern… versus going, "Well, what is it that I really want?" right. Because when you know what you want, you're not as swayed by what other people think, right... Because you know this is what I'm looking for, this is what I want. And when you have that strong belief in yourself, that is what you... that's how you manifest, that's how you draw that energy towards you. And, you know, from my own experience, like, when I get really clear, that's the kind of energy that I attract in, where I go… Oh, this is interesting. I'm noticing, you know, all these men that I'm dating now, they all have these similar qualities I'm looking for. And then when, you know, when meeting a right person, I was like, wow, you have a really amazing combination of all the qualities I'm looking for... And here's the distinction to of… we have in our mind of… this is what I want, right. This is a vision of what I'm looking for what I want… but it's also, be willing to take a step back and go… I know what I want, but what is the real reason behind wanting that? And when you see that, "Okay, this is actually the deeper reason of why I want this", then you could see, well, what are some other ways you can actually achieve that same want, that same why, without being exactly this, this particular way, initially imagined. So there's a part of knowing what you want, but it's more about knowing the why of what you want, and be able to also let go and step back and go… Alright, universe, this is what I'm looking for, this is what I want, and bring it, bring that person to me, right... But then also going that… hey, this person might not have that quality immediately. But it's, it's something that they could cultivate, is something that they do have that quality, but they just show up and they show you it in different way…

SAMIA: Okay, now you're making me think about a bunch of Indian dramas that I've been watching. We always have Indian dramas on in my house. My Mom, you know, she... I mean, her English is pretty good. But, you know, she still loves watching things in our language. And so you know, we have one TV in the house, so we have to watch it together. And so we ended up watching quite a bit of Indian television. And just recently, I, you know, we were watching this one drama that had this actual theme going on, where the heroine and the hero, like on the surface, they seem to be like very different people. But there's one person in their life, that's the mom of the hero, as a matter of fact, who first gets to know the heroine. Like she meets her randomly, somewhere, and she starts to connect, and they actually the girl and the boy's mom actually become like best friends. And the mom is like, "Oh, my God, I think you'd be the perfect fit for my son because you have all of these qualities that match with his core values and stuff." But the son is a very interesting character. And he does... He has, he can't… like he sees certain surface-level differences between him and the girl, and he's like, "No, no, she's not for me. She's not for me, we are not a match." But the mom is like, "No, no, please just give this a chance. Get to know her better, because really, when you look at the deeper level, you guys have the same values of, you know, serving your families, loving your families, and, you know, the way that you live out your life, there's like so much commonality in that. So disregard the surface-level differences." I mean, the dude in the drama, I mean, it's a drama, so he's still having issues with that. But like, you can see the wisdom in what the mom’s talking about, actually. And the girls already recognized this, because she's much more… well, the guy is having more challenges because he's not in a good mental health space. So he needs to deal with that. But, you know, you can see where it's heading… that once he gets in a better mental health state, that he will also see this, this reality that his mom has already seen, the girl has already recognized… and so she's like, well I've been willing to sort of be more patient and sort of give the relationship a chance, you know… which otherwise... I mean, I would have been like, "No, this guy's a lost cause, forget about it."

KAT: Yeah, I definitely agree with what you're saying. And just like that story that you know that TV drama really highlighted is that oftentimes when people are dating, they get caught up with chemistry, the sexual chemistry… or if we have similar hobbies… And they find things a little more on the surface level, right, of thinking… well, if that is in alignment, if I'm sexually attracted, if we have some of our hobbies, then things will be okay, right... But it's actually like that mom said, it's more about the deeper values… And I just want to share a little bit more like about values in the sense of, you know, values are our deepest level of programming, right... It drives your behavior, it drives how you make decisions, and it dictates how your actions are, even creates your list of priorities in a sense, right. And we know that those values, those priorities, affect different areas of life as well. So, I mean, the easiest way to look at it, right, is that your values determine what you do with your time, and how you evaluate if that time is well spent, right... So being able to have these conversations with your partner… or someone you're dating, at the beginning, to go like, what are your values? What are important to you? And understand… what is that… what is that word, that label, that they put on? If it's like commitment or communication, or whatever it is, right... Like, ask more of… what does that look like to you? What is that... Why is that important to you? Kind of find out the deeper meanings and how it's being shown... how it shows up for them, or how they need it to be received. And when you find that alignment, that's how you create the deeper, stronger relationships, because when that's in alignment, it makes things so much easier. And oftentimes, when values are in a misalignment, that's when conflict happens, right. And then… not like conflict is bad… But that gives you opportunity to really figure out how could you work together to find that common ground after. So yeah, finding those core values and be able to understand that, it makes things so much easier.

SAMIA: Yes, I really appreciate what you're saying. And I think when I start to think about that idea of non-negotiables from the perspective that what's non-negotiable is my values, rather than the specifics of how I'm going to... how it might look like. Because like, for example, if I have a value for peace, I mean, that's one of my deepest values... Peace can look so many different ways. I mean, we can live peace in so many different ways. It can look like ah, I just get to sit and read a book, and not be disturbed while I'm reading. But it can also be experienced in other contexts. Like if, for example, if I'm living in a home, and there's kids around, and they're running around, and so there isn't, maybe, as much time as I might want in an ideal scenario, to just be able to sit in quiet and read because the kids are running around… That doesn't mean I still can't experience peace in my life… it just means it's going to look a little bit different. And I have to maybe shift my mindset and my thinking a little bit in terms of how I can experience peace in the context of the kids running around…

KAT: Yeah, exactly. And that's also your values adapting, right… if you have that value... It's a little different when you single, it's a little different when you're in a relationship, it's a little different when you have life circumstances that change, like having kids and whatnot, right. So it's learning that you have that base value, but how does that continue to grow and evolve... And that's why this is a continual conversation with your partner. It's not just… hey, we had this baseline at the beginning, we have it set… then you are good, right... No, you have to keep on conversing, talking about it. And also values could shift. Values could change. Values could kind of… you might label in a certain way… like say peace now, but it might mean a different word later for you as you continue aging, as you continue experiencing life... That peace might be another word for you, that makes more sense to you as you grow and evolve. And because we're all growing, we're all evolving. So how we see our values also grow and evolve and change with us to…

SAMIA: Yes, exactly… because like for me, this has definitely been very true. Like for me in my younger days, I think, like even up to like maybe my mid-20s or something, for me peace meant I needed solitude, I needed alone time, me time. Because being around other people… like, I didn't have the skills that I do now in terms of, first of all, managing my own emotions. And I had very little ability to manage or deal with anyone else's hard emotions... And so like my... the best I could do at that time with, you know, where I was at, and the skills that I had, was like to just step away, and just be like, I just need to be by myself. Because I can't deal with emotional upheaval. I like… I had a very low tolerance for it. And so for me, yeah, like for me to have peace then, I really did need a lot of solitude. But as I've healed and grown, you know, now I can, you know, be with people. And even when there's like, stuff going on, like difficult things going on... I'm actually one of the people who stays the most calm and peaceful in those circumstances. And I like to, you know, really think that not only am I able to stay calm and peaceful in those situations for myself, but more and more now I'm able to actually help the people around me begin to feel more calm and peaceful as well. So as my capacities have changed, my… the way I experience peace has also been shifting and changing. So that's cool, that's cool. Yay…

KAT: Yeah, thanks for sharing your story and how… to illustrate how it has evolved and changed over time, it definitely makes a difference…

SAMIA: Yeah, and so in the context of relationships, to realize that it's actually a good thing that we will change… and to be with a partner who is open to changing and growing with you…

KAT: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the part where a lot of relationships as they kind of progress for a longer time start having those misalignments… is because the two partners aren't growing together, right... Like one person might be growing, or some might not be, or you know, they're not having these conversations to make sure they're still on the same page as well, right. Because as you continue growing, evolving, what your goals are, what your vision of what you like to be, could start changing. And that's where people start, you know, going into different paths, or, you know, they start different levels of growth. And that's what creates, you know, the disharmony in a relationship, right. Because you guys aren’t on the same page anymore, you're not the same person anymore of when you guys started, right. So it's being very intentional, and very conscious of how you are also growing and evolving your relationship as life continues. Because oftentimes, people get so focused on other areas of life… a career is a big one. And people get so focused on career… Or when people have families, they are so focused on the kids, right. Like when that, that big, like, you know, the area of life really starts changing, and really taking all your focus away, it's actually really, really important to really think of how to still work on your relationship at the same time, right. Don't let it be like an alarm out there of like flashing lights and stuff going, there's something going on or something wrong, right. Like, this is the warning sign... You don't want to wait for the warning sign. You want to go… before I get there, let's make it preventative. Let's have more deeper conversations, have regular check-ins to see… Hey, well, how are things going? You know, what is it… You know, is there anything that's been bothering that you haven't mentioned, or want to take the time to talk about? right… And when you create that safe space with your partner on a regular basis and just be like caring about the relationship as a whole... so it's not just one person or the other, it's actually together, right. As a relationship, as a whole, what is it that we have to do to continue making it better… and having those conversations…

SAMIA: I love this point that you're making of… don't wait till things have become bad or the flashing lights are now on… like, take preventive measures… because what's that saying... Prevention is…

KAT: The best medicine… I think… or something like that…

SAMIA: Something like that. Yeah... it's like so much more fun and easy to like prevent and do the stuff that needs… like that, that will help to prevent… than to end up in a crisis and then to have to deal with it. I mean, eventually, I mean, I don't... I… just being human, there will be times that we will miss necessary prevention work. And there will be times when we might find ourselves in crisis. But at least if we have this value of prevention, and this value of, you know, working on our relationship to make it better and grow in a conscientious way, then we can minimize the number of times in our life when we find ourselves in this crisis, seemingly out of the blue, or unexpectedly.

KAT: And yeah, oftentimes, when you think like… it came out of the blue, like, where did that come from? Right... But honestly, that's been something that's been building little by little by little in the background until it pretty much explodes, right... So it's actually preventing that ahead of time, right. Like, okay, before it turns into this big argument, before it turns into this big disagreement, like, let's have a conversation first. Let's dig, you know… I think it's also work on both sides, right. To have that awareness, for example, in myself and going… Okay, why did I get triggered? Why, you know… what was I thinking, or what beliefs led to me thinking this was an issue or problem or whatnot… And actually do the internal work, having that self-reflection, that awareness within myself. So when I do have that conversation with my partner to tell him… Hey, I got triggered because of this reason, and now trying to come together to find a solution... versus going… I'm blaming you, you did this, you did that… Because that never helps, right... It's actually coming to them, like… Hey, this is how I'm feeling. This is what I experienced. And this is what I need your help to come in with. Or, I need to hear where your perspective is. Because maybe what I thought of what you were thinking was totally off, right. So I want to hear from you, your own perspective… What happened? Where were you thinking? And let's try to find a way to minimize this going forward… By having those different kinds of conversations, than just waiting for like, a blow up to happen, or just, you know, where you can't, where the emotions are so strong, that it's hard to calm down and really think in a very objective way of what happened.

SAMIA: Yes. And you know, you just reminded me of a research study, that totally validates what you're saying, because so… in this study, this was… the researchers actually what they wanted to look at was with couples… how frequently couples talk about things that bother them in the context of their relationship, and see if there was any relationship between the frequency of these kind of conversations between them, and the quality of their relationship in terms of their overall sense of happiness in being together and, you know, feeling a sense of, you know, yes, our relationship is healthy and we're in a good place. And actually, interestingly, the researchers… they... before they started collecting the data, they had an expectation that less frequent talking about things that bother you in the context of your relationship would be likely to correlate with the state of being in a happy relationship. Because if you're like complaining about this bothers me, that bothers me, it seems to make logical sense that, that kind of… that might create a sort of, not happy environment in your relationship. But interestingly, what they found out was that the couples who had the happiest relationships, who felt most happy and satisfied and committed in their relationships, actually spoke more frequently about the things that bothered them. And the thing was, that you also beautifully highlighted Kat, was that the reason why the more frequent talking didn't end up creating unhappiness in their relationship is because of the manner in which… that they spoke about what bothered them. So they did it in a way that was… loving and oftentimes playful, and definitely like in this context where they felt safe to express to each other what was bothering them. And it basically served the function of nipping in the bud things that could have potentially grown and created more trouble later on, just like you were saying. So, research actually totally backs you up.

KAT: Yes! That's awesome... And yeah, it’s also from personal experiences too… because, you know, I’m it. I used to do that too... And that's where I learned, I learned that communication style from other people, from other role models and realizing… wait, that's not effective, that just builds up more yelling, more disagreement… like, nothing's being resolved, people on both sides are just pissed off… I was like, well, how can I do this differently? I think that's where I was trying to learn and experience and kind of find out information. I'm amazed, I totally want to hear the research. I'll ask you about it after. But yeah, it's like finding out like having these harder... they felt harder conversations. But they're actually conversations that actually bring you closer. Like, I totally agree that part of thinking that, you know, having these difficult conversations, well, I don't want to… I don't want to break the peace, things are going well, right... I don't want to bring that up… But that's actually when you do need to bring it up. Because if it's something that’s within you, that's feeling there's something a little off, something that I'm not feeling right… and have those conversations with your partner… that allows your partner to understand… Oh, I didn't realize you were feeling that way. I didn't know me doing this meant you were… you thought a certain way, or you were feeling… it triggered you in some way that made you uncomfortable, when that was absolutely not my intention at all, right… So when you have those conversations ahead of time, and you talk to both sides, and both sides openly tell each other… Wait, that's what happened, or that's how you saw what happened, or, you know, oh, that's what you were feeling... It's just that openness and understanding that conversation creates more of that loving… that connection. And that deeper, you know, that deeper connection with each other… Because you don't often do that with a lot of other people out there, unless they are really close friends, but it takes time to build… And your partner is one of the most important people in your life... Because you know how you're set… you're… the five people you spend the most time with is like, you know, who you are, in a sense, right. Like, your partner, your partner is with you all the time, right. That's your life partner. So you being able to build that deepness, that connection with them... And you see people out there, right, with like, when they have a really good relationship with their partner... it… they're not alone anymore… you have a partner in life to handle those life challenges, to handle those difficult things happening in life. Because you're not alone. And you have that support system to get through it together. But when you don't create that connection with your partner, and you're trying to tackle it on your own, it feels tiring, it feels draining… you feel like you're battling against your partner as well, because that person… you haven't got the buy-in, or you haven't really brought your partner in to where you are together. You're not going at it as a team… you're going at… you're going at it as an individual…

SAMIA: Yes. Oh my gosh, Kat, you know, I think there might also be a bit of a cultural element here maybe… because I was having this conversation with actually one of my cousin sisters a few weeks ago, where, you know… because one of the communities of people that I love to work with and serve are survivors of domestic violence… I'm actually a trained crisis counselor for domestic violence survivors... And that particular day when my cousin and I were talking, and my sister was actually also there with us… the reason we started having this conversation was because one of our friends in the community was going through some difficult times… and my cousin was sharing with me what you… because she knows about my working with survivors of domestic violence, and she wanted to get my feedback on… hey, with what we're seeing in this couple's relationship, is this something that's potentially abusive or is it just more like normal conflict… And anyway, I won't get into the details of what that situation was. But the conversation… part of the conversation that came out of our starting from there was this… that in our culture… and now, right now, I'm talking about our Indian-Pakistani culture… it's almost like we're trained as women not to talk to our husbands about things that are bothering us, especially about our husbands. And… because there is this expectation, or, like, if you are, you know, traditional... in the traditional aspect of the culture, you know, the relationship between husband and wife… honestly, it's not an equal relationship. It's not an equal relationship... And what we are taught as women is that, you know, you need to... Like, your husband is, in some ways, like, in a superior position to you, and he has the right to tell you what to do, and you need to listen and follow his lead. And you can't complain to him about him because if you complain, if you question his decisions, his attitudes, his behaviors, then that is seen as disrespectful. And that is not acceptable. And so, when things do bother women in their relationships, where do they go? What do they do? And so what happens is that they talk with each other. And so it's so common for women to be talking with each other about all these problems that they're having with their husbands. And they do their best, I suppose, to advise each other on how to deal with things. And sure, I'm sure it's helpful to a certain extent… And there are problems that you just can't solve by trying to deal with it on your own level. There are some problems where you have to bring it up with the person that you're having that experience of problem with…

KAT: Yeah. Well, first off, I just wanted to say thank you for all the work that you do… that is... So thank you for helping all those people out there that are experiencing that. And yeah, you highlighted a really great point of the whole cultural aspect and how that really influences what a relationship is now, right. Even though that is something that was established hundreds of years ago, or, you know, generations and stuff like that... but that still affects how we are living today, because that's what's passed on from generation to generation to generation. And I think that's where we're in a really unique kind of space right now, in a sense, where people are starting to… willing to do something different... They're willing to show up differently, wanting to have a different kind of relationship, and be able to break beyond that cultural, beyond that societal, like, expectations or desire or obligations and whatnot, to create a relationship that they want… to make them happy, right. So yeah, I do totally understand that. And that also highlights the part too of… your partner can't be your everything, right. There are certain conversations that, you know, it is easier to talk to a fellow woman about it, or talk to a friend who could understand your situation, could really kind of think through or process what's going on with you the times where it might not be as easy to process with your partner immediately because you need to do your own internal work first. You need to understand what happened or what were you feeling… And sometimes it’s easier to have that conversation with a friend or with a coach, with a therapist or trained professional, that can really help you through that, to really process what you're going through, before you come back and talk to your partner and go… "Hey, this is what happened. And how can we resolve it together?" Because in an argument, in a disagreement, one side needs to back down or one needs to step aside… what… or whatever you want to label it. But there's a part of meaning to take… to kind of move away from the tension, to do something different, in order to change what the result is going to be, right… Because if both people are still battling and fighting, it's just head butting, you're not really getting anywhere. But if someone starts shifting, go… Okay, I'm not going to fight with you anymore. Let's actually find a resolution. Or let's take some time for both of us to calm down first and come together… Right. So it's, it is having that element of, yeah, maybe you do need to take that away from your partner. Have a conversation with other people who do understand or who can really take that time to process with you what's going on before you bring back to your partner… and just with their situation talking about how culturally you can't really bring that back with your partner… and that is really challenging... I totally see that…

SAMIA: The thing is that it's not like our culture is uniform. You know, I mean, I think this is one way that some people in the culture are. I think that is a problematic way. And the people who are in these kinds of relationships… like, you can see, you can see the suffering that they're experiencing... And so I'm like, you know, I want to look at people within my own cultural community who are following a different model. And there are lots of them… Like, I have so much love and appreciation for my grandparents, especially like my, on my mom's side... My grandfather and grandmother, they were so… it's such an inspiring example because… they did not fit into this kind of traditional setup in how they treated each other… not at all… Like, I mean, in some ways... maybe again… Like, on the surface of things, maybe, you know, we still had… like my family, by and large, still leading a very traditional lifestyle, you know, where we're, we're… we have always lived in a joint family system, and we definitely have a strong ethic for respecting our elders. And there's definitely, you know, like, hierarchy that we recognize… in terms of the different roles that different people in the family structure serve... And about… what my grandparents demonstrated was that the power dynamics in the… there is a difference between the… how you exercise power in the context of doing/performing your role of doing this duty or doing that duty… And there's a difference between that and how you actually love and treat each other and relate to each other at a human level. And so it's like, yes, you can have different roles in the family where, like, my grandmother, she was a homemaker. She didn't go out to work and stuff… never, I don't think… she never did any work to earn money. She was a homemaker through and through. And my grandfather was the one… was, you know, going out there being the breadwinner, all of that good stuff. So in that case, in that sense, they had that traditional separation of roles. But when they related to each other as a couple, they were beautifully, wonderfully like… they… you didn't feel like my grandfather was, you know, at a higher status or something like that... They were just so… I mean, they consulted with each other, you know, about everything. They valued each other's opinion on every little big thing. And, you know, like, when my grandfather passed away, and… it was just really, really hard for my grandma, and you could see something in her that, like, she lost and never quite recovered…

KAT: And that's an amazing relationship... I think that's the type of relationship a lot of us all aspire to, right, to be in a relationship like that where you're both respected, your opinions, even though there's different roles. But then it's still respected and loved and there's compassion. And I think that's why you're so touched by it too. And I've been really touched by it... It's that level of connection between them that really inspires you, like, "That's the relationship I'm looking for. That's the one I want." I think there's a real uniqueness of what happened between your grandparents of, yeah, they both had a role, it sounded very traditional… the man is the breadwinner, the woman is the homemaker. And I think how that's changing now in society is that, you know, now that's not always the same, right... It's blending, it's different. And I think what makes a couple work is understanding what their roles are, embracing the roles, accepting it, and also respecting the other person's role in it too.

SAMIA: Yeah.

KAT: And also be able to go, Okay, if that is your role, how can I support you in that role too? Or what are things that, okay, like, if that's your role, then, you know, what are some, you know, underlying things that you need to be in that role, right, underlying things that you need support in that… or like… then be able to communicate that with your partner... And also other side going, okay, that's your role. I'm not gonna try to fight with you, right. But I think oftentimes, now, when, because the roles are not as clearly defined, it makes it really muddy and unclear. And people are battling and trying to figure out this power dynamic thing… when it doesn't need to be a power dynamic... It is more of a how do you collaborate? I want to change that… how do you collaborate together as… with your partner, as a team, to work towards it together, versus going… I need to have the power. This is what I do. I'm the one who makes the decisions. Like, when it turns into that, it… I'd say it's a little more like on the ego side of, like, this is what I need to do… And it has to be my certain way. It's a level of control, right.

SAMIA: Yes.

KAT: So we let go of that… and going… Okay, this is not about my ego. This is not about who's right or wrong. It's not about who has the power or whatnot. That's why I was saying, it’s like the relationship is a separate entity in a sense. How do you do things for the best of the relationship as a whole... versus what's best for me or what's best for you... I mean, that is important, because it comes together with what's best for the relationship. But as we all know, that's when times arguments… it's not about… I'm right, you're wrong, this is how it needs to happen... Like, it's more about… okay, well, what can we do to come together to create that solution, to create that unity, and create that collaboration…

SAMIA: Yes, yes, yes... And I think I just realized, what I was trying to express, and you talked about it, in terms of what was going on with my grandparents that was so beautiful, is that… they had the different roles, but they valued each other roles equally. Like, the one person didn't think the other person's role was more important than the other. They were like, yes, your role… what you're doing is just as important as what I'm doing. And both of these things are needed for us to have a healthy, happy family…

KAT: Yes, I love that you said that, and made that distinction, because that is so important. It's be able to value and respect and go… and honor their role in their relationship and what value they bring… and to go… and actually also show that appreciation too… it's like, thank you for doing what you do. Because when you're a partnership, there are always going to be strengths and weaknesses and whatnot. But when you kind of come together and can, you know, leverage each other's strengths, help each other, each other's weaknesses, and come together and value each other, and what each other does for the relationship, for the family, for, you know… bring in income, or you know, create the lifestyle they want… like, at all the elements, it definitely makes the relationship a lot stronger. Because I think that's where the power part comes out of, well, power means someone is more or less or someone’s stronger or weaker. And it's not really that case because that strength and weakness, it's based on the scenario, right. It's very different based on the scenario. One scenario could be like, that's powerful. And in another scenario that's actually a weakness, right... So it's blending that together as a couple to create that strength.

SAMIA: Yes, yes... You just made me think about some movies where, you know, the theme is the men and women trying to learn appreciation for each other's role. You know, like, I've seen so many movies where, you know, they're not getting along, they're fighting, they don't value each other's role. And then at some point, they'll be like, "Okay, well, if you think my job is so easy, you do my job." The other person will be like, "Well, if you think my jobs so easy, you do my job", and then try to do each other's jobs. And then they realize, "Oh, my God, the other job that I thought was so easy is totally not so easy. And I cannot do it so well. And now I can really appreciate my partner for what a wonderful job they do at their job..."

KAT: Exactly. And I think that's why people don't only see one side… it's like because you do the job so well you make it look so easy. But with 20 different things that need to happen, you're juggling all that… and often times when you're stepping outside, you're another person, you don't realize all the things you're considering and figuring out, problem-solving, balancing and juggling. And there's a lot that goes on. So I think that is a great way of actually seeing, like, wow, you do a lot of stuff for the family or for the, for the relationship and for… or for your job, whatever it is... And even have conversations about it. I think that's where conversations can help… if, okay, you can't… if you can't really put yourself in that person's role entirely like those shows, well then, have those conversations to understand… wait, why is, why does this feel so challenging? Or what are you doing? That's like just understanding any issues or problems or even understand like, what is it that you do that make it so amazing and so easy, right... So it's learning to appreciate each other…

SAMIA: Yes. And, you know, I think that I just realized another thing with my grandparents that they did for each other that helped them to really appreciate each other so much is that even though like, for example, my grandmother never worked in the business that my grandfather had, she accompanied him so much of the time and went with him and saw what he was doing. And similarly, with my grandfather, he made time to stay at home and just be there. And when he was at home, you know, he paid attention to what was going on, and who was doing what… and so like, for example, when... Like, he would notice times when there was too much on my grandmother's plate, and he didn't necessarily step in and say, "Okay, I will do this work for you." But he would call on someone else in the family or call one of the other… we had… my grandparents, happily… like, I mean, they didn't start out very rich, but my grandfather was a brilliant business person. And, you know, eventually, they ended up being millionaires, multimillionaires. And so then they had like this whole, like, army of servants and people working at, you know, in their place. So he would like call, and he'd be like, help… help your grandmother, take over and do this task. Or he would call a servant and be like, you do this, this is your job. And I don't want to see my wife doing this anymore… you know, and so he really paid attention to what was going on. And so, wow, I don't think I ever fully appreciated this before that this was like one way that, just through observation, they were able to gain more of an appreciation of each other's roles. And, and, and support each other…

KAT: That's amazing. Wow... that's a great... That's amazing that you recognized that and had that awareness, even thinking about now, like, realizing how much that contributed to it. It might seem so small, but it's really the little things like that in life that really make the difference. And it is through observation, it is through, you know, knowing your partner so well, like, oh, you're kind of kind of guessing, you intuitively know… okay, this is where you need help, or, stepping in and asking… do you need help with anything? And also being aware of what's going on with them to ask, "Hey, are you okay?" Right... And like just having that ability to understand each other so well, and be able to step in and create that support, makes both sides feel so appreciated, right... And… I think that's… oh, just hearing that, definitely, it's like, wow… that definitely, all those little things make a difference. And it's because they continue making the effort, like, we were talking about earlier… your grandfather made the effort, your grandmother made the effort, right. Because they continued making an effort, they didn't really just let things slide or be like, oh, whatever, that's your problem, I’m not gonna handle it. It is going… no, it is your problem. So how could we figure it out together? Right… And that's what really makes a relationship so important, and so supportive, too, because I think life becomes easier for both sides when you have that support…

SAMIA: Yes. Oh, my gosh, Kat, I think we could keep talking for another hour... And we need to wrap up... Do you have any last thoughts for right now?

KAT: Yeah, I think one last thing to kind of wrap up things that we've talked about earlier of, you know, just kind of having conversations of, you know, telling your partner what you’re looking for, what you want and how you need to feel fulfilled or happy or what is it that you need, right... and you just want to remind people that your request is not a demand. Your request is a conversation, an opportunity for you and your partner to actually become closer as a couple because you're communicating with each other what your needs are… and have… and kind of create that space to have that being fulfilled. So that yeah, that's my last little thought to share with your audience…

SAMIA: Thank you Kat…

KAT: Yeah…

SAMIA: That's a brilliant, wonderful, very wise thought for us to start wrapping up on... And for my last thought to share, I will just say… please… to everyone who is listening... Please check the show notes. Because we will be dropping Kat's links in the show notes so you can connect with her and get some help and support in getting more clear about who you are, what you want for yourself and in your relationships... And make it more fun and easy…

KAT: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Samia... I had so much fun talking to you and just hearing those amazing stories from your life and your grandparents. So thank you for sharing and all that you do…

SAMIA: Thank you, Kat... And until we connect again, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)

KAT: Thank you!