SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet! You know, I'm really, really looking forward to my conversation with our guest today. She's a very special guest. Her name is Kay'La Mumford. And she is a Birth Worker, Full Spectrum Doula, and Doula Instructor. I think you're one of the most unique guests that we have had on our show, Kay'La. I'm so excited to have you. Welcome…

KAY'LA:  Thank you. I appreciate everyone for welcoming me here on this amazing show…

SAMIA: Yes! And Kay'La, please tell us more about who you are and what you do…

KAY'LA: Okay, and I apologize if my camera kind of mess up a little bit. I'll try to fix it so I can be live for everyone... But like Samia said, my name is Kay'La Mumford. I am a full spectrum doula, doula instructor, childbirth educator… many other things as well that I'll kind of get into, and mainly a mom. So beyond being a birth worker, I have conquered birth as a mother. I have three beautiful children. I've had a hospital birth. I've had a home birth with a midwife and a doula, and also unassisted home birth as well... So I've experienced it in many different ways as a birther. And I've also been a doula for many years, as mentioned. I got into birth work, officially, after my second birth. So I had that home birth with a midwife, it was a completely different experience than I had in the hospital. And I just knew I needed to help more families, more women, more moms, more birthing people have a beautiful experience like I did, and just know that it is possible. So I... at two weeks postpartum with my daughter, went in, took a doula training, and got certified right away. And I ended up starting to work doing ultrasound, so it kind of took off right away. I was serving a lot of clients right away, also doing ultrasound and just kind of really emerged into birth work. And then from there, I kind of got more on the community side in 2020, when I had a client lose their baby, and it was really shocking and a highlight for us in the community that there was a big gap and lots of needs just with COVID, on top of barriers that were already there. So it kind of sparked the flame of knowing that we needed support. And me and one of my duola sisters, we reached out to people and into the community and we got support on getting a grant for COVID support for both workers and for birthing people in Southeast Wisconsin, and it was specifically for Milwaukee and a few surrounding counties... And from there, it just kind of took off with more of the community side of being a community leader, pushing more for birth equity, reproductive justice, and BIPOC in marginalized communities having better birthing outcomes. And yeah, so from there, it has kind of built a passion. And then in 2021, after taking several doula trainings from the time I started by then and just seeing a lot of gaps and different things that I felt was still needed, specifically, cultural pieces that, like, again, BIPOC communities, and community-based care, needs to have… in like, a lot of the trainings that I had taken didn't have that component. And it wasn't really relatable to those communities in a lot of ways. So I developed a course... And I launched it in 2021, and started training BIPOC doulas, again, starting in Southeast Wisconsin. And, yeah, from there just started the instructor side and doing different trainings to train with other things like childbirth education, and really equip our community with knowledge… because I do feel that if we have the right education and understanding, we can make better-informed decisions for our health and ourselves and our babies and our body... So it's really important to me on that side in providing community expansion. So that's why again I didn't want to just be a doula and service the people that I can reach with my own two hands. But I knew that I wanted to help pave the way for more doulas, for those communities that really need it like BIPOC communities and marginalized communities. So yeah, so that's kind of the birth side. I do also, I do call myself a serialpreneur because I have always had a passion for business. I went to school for business and graduated with a degree in Kenosha, Wisconsin, and then again, I have my birth business. I also am a model now. That's something I'm really passionate about and reaching people and helping people just understand that they can go after their dreams and do whatever they aspire to do, despite any odds against them, or barriers, or anything like that. So that's my true passion, is reaching people…

SAMIA: I love it, I love it. And, you know, I definitely see that entrepreneurial spirit in you… and you know, that entrepreneurial spirit is probably what has also allowed you to, my gosh, like, just… because, you know, entrepreneurs at heart, we are people that we see a problem and we're like, you know what, we want to find a solution, and we want to deliver the solution to people, you know… And whatever the field you do that, that's what drives you is that you're wanting to help people and serve people. And I think it's just so exciting that you are so committed to following your passion, you know, and even in varied fields like birth work and modeling. But I can totally see how the two things can support each other, actually, because, you know, with modeling, I bet you're able to bring in a flair and elevate your marketing, and so forth, for all the other businesses or organizations or campaigns that you participate in, and, you know, uplift those brands and those messages as well... So, wow, it's so cool…

KAY'LA: Thank you.

SAMIA: Yeah... Okay, okay... So you know, this is a podcast for changemakers… people who are on a mission to change the world, which includes lots of fellow serialpreneurs, whatever the different fields are within which you want to make change. So I would love to focus with you today on the birth work that you do… because when I learned about the work that you're doing, I just feel like... Woah... There is a serious lack of awareness that there's even …like the magnitude of the problem and what the problems actually are that are being faced day in and day out by women. And we're not talking about, you know, outside of America… we're talking about right here in America. Can you, Kay'la, tell us a little bit more about what are some of the key barriers or problems that you see women struggling with in the context of their maternity health, particularly in the context of issues that come up when it comes time for birth?

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KAY'LA: Yeah, it can be so many… but just to highlight some main issues and things that is kind of, I guess, you could say delaying maternal health… is the disconnect between clinic and community… that's a huge one, because the hospitals are not really immersed in the community to know what's going on. And the community is disconnected from the clinic and doesn't even know how to navigate hospital systems, because it's all foreign to them, just like a different language. So not having the right information… and that connects to the hospital systems, is one thing. So that creates barriers, and so forth... And then… so when people are making decisions for their health, again, they're not able to make informed decisions. And then also with hospitals, making sure that they're giving the right to make informed decisions… because a lot of hospitals and a lot of people aren't being given their rights, their birth rights, and being given the right to make an informed decision, informed consent, from their providers. So a lot of people are just kind of going with the flow of what they're being told and what not... what they should do for their bodies and what makes sense to their specific situations. So it creates a disconnect, and then when you're just getting standard care, you know, going off of a protocol. Birth doesn't work like that... It's spontaneous, it's intimate, it's sporadic… you just don't know and everyone's going to be different. So when you create a standard that you treat everyone by, it's, it's kind of hard to, you know, like, specifically to change things when no one's getting the right care that they need. Especially if you're someone, a minority or black or brown person, because you're going to, you know… the statistics show, we have completely different experiences in the hospital system. So we need care that's tailored to us, we need our social determinants of health played in as a factor because again, those things matter. Living situations in marginalized communities is going to be different than, you know, a wealthy community... And that plays a role in the health and so forth. So all those things have to come into factor. And I don't really think they're being considered in that gap between community in clinic, that trust barrier, that foreign areas, it just kind of creates a disconnect and things don't merge properly when that time comes. And then when people aren't being heard, when they're expressing things or something doesn't feel right, and again, protocol is just being followed, or voices are being ignored, that creates, you know, more of adverse outcomes, because people's bodies, which should be leading, isn’t leading the way. And that is another thing that we're not, a lot of times, not following the natural system of the body first and letting that person kind of guide us. Again, we're in the systems following the system first, and then trying to get people's bodies to adjust to the system. And it just doesn't always work like that…

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember watching an episode recently, on a show where they were addressing some of the challenges with maternity health more generally, they didn't necessarily focus on just birthing, but they were trying to talk about maternity health... And they're talking about how there's so many areas actually in the US, where they don't even have clinics and hospitals that are equipped to actually provide maternity care. And, like, when it's time to give birth to women there's no doctors and nurses who have been properly trained. And so there's a huge knowledge gap... And, and so, you know, you if, you know, even if you do end up in a hospital, and there's no properly trained doctors and staff in the context of providing proper maternity health, then it's like, kind of, I'm imagining, that's part of how this problem emerges of… they're just following some kind of system that, I mean, they're, I hope, trying to do their best. But it's not good enough, because the knowledge is not there, the experience is not there. And even to the extent that the knowledge is there, it's not a very expansive or holistic, and taking… like, it's based on studies and research and work that's basically maybe been done on, like, rich white people or something of that sort where, you know… who tend to show certain kinds of trends in their health and, you know, their, you know, whatever their needs are in the context of maternity health and birthing, and so forth... But like you, you brought up that when we're looking at marginalized communities, when we're looking at BIPOC communities that… by the way for people who are not familiar with that expression, it is just referring… BIPOC is referring to… people of color… I forget what each letter stands for... I'm blanking on it right now… but basically, people of color... So, you know, definitely, you know, if you look into the research where these things are taken into consideration, you definitely see again and again, that people of color people, people who are coming, you know, from… genetically… from different parts of the world, you know, and so forth… we have different… some differences, some relevant differences in how our health functions, how our bodies function… and most of the time, you know, Western medicine, because they haven't done that research, they haven't taken the time to look into that aspect of things, that they're just unaware... It's a big problem I see…

KAY'LA: Yeah, and what I mentioned earlier, with like social determinants of health and all of those things that being in a factor in that gap, it really starts with like root causes. So like, there's a study done by a doctor, Julia Perry... And she kind of shows, like, how social determinants of health are like, that's like what we see. So that's like the outcome of root causes. So we think about…

SAMIA: ..what are some social determinants of health?

KAY'LA: So like living environment, quality health care, having access to quality health care, food and nutrition, air quality, all of those things, safe neighborhoods. So like, at the top, when we think of like root causes, one of the main root causes is systemic racism. So we're seeing the worst statistics for black women leading, and in black and brown people leading above, like, white people that's having baby… having babies. But so systemic racism… because when we think about birth on this level, it's not a biological problem. It's not that black and brown people can't have babies, or that there's an issue with our bodies that is different than a white person's body. It's... it's not, that's just not the case. So race in this aspect, we think of systemic racism because it's embedded into the laws and the behavior of the people. So when people are going to have their babies they're being treated a certain way, or they're not being considered a certain way that would help and would also be fitting for them. So that's, again, where equity comes into play, and why we need birth equity, because we're like you said, you can't kind of identify certain things or, or give us care based off of a white person living in a wealthy neighborhood, because they're gonna have a different birthing experience than a black woman living in a low income, you know, community, that's high crime rate... So those are things that, again, like we have to take into consideration when people are birthing, because it's just, it's gonna be different. And it's not necessarily taken into consideration…

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah... It's so true. So thank you for raising that point, that even beyond the issues at a medical level, like in terms of just natural differences in our body and stuff, there are so many social and environmental factors that have an impact on our health and well-being... And I mean, I guess this is also part of where us as changemakers step in, you know, and especially with the kind of approach that you have taken to addressing this issue. Tell me more about... So you use the word doula, being a doula instructor, and so forth... Can you tell me a little bit more about who is a doula, where does that word come from? Why, like, why do you prefer to use that, and so forth…

KAY'LA: Yeah, so doula… so it comes from, I believe, it's a Greek word, deriving meaning like help or servant… like a woman servant... And what a doula is, is a support person. And honestly, doulas can be for anytime in life. There's death doulas. So people will get them like for end-of-life care… specifically for birth, just thinking of like birth doulas, postpartum doulas, they help during the birthing process. So they help pregnant people during their pregnancy and birthing process to help them have a smooth outcome... Physically, emotionally, spiritually, even mentally… and help them get through that. So they are like that extra person that just makes sure everything is aligned. So they help connect between the hospital and the patient so that clear communication can be had. They help them advocate and find their voice. So then they can again advocate on their own rights and inform them… they help them build their confidence up and help them remember the strength that is within them to have babies. They support the partner to make sure the partner is equipped. There's a lot of times where I've had partners, it's like, well, what do we need them for? You know, what do we need her for? I'm here. And then afterwards, they like… the partner’s just like, you know, welcomes me like a part of the family because I was such a good help and they realize how much they needed that support. Because most male partners don't even want to really be involved, mainly because they don't really know what's going on. And they’d rather be hands off, but they kind of feel obligated. So to have someone there to support them and let them know this is okay, you know, that your partner is going to be a little like this right here, or these things are happening, that's okay, things are progressing... It really just helps them feel confident and secure because they know what's going on. When I had my first daughter in the hospital, her father actually was, like, balled up in a corner… like, we thought he had a headache, but we didn't find out until our second child that he was having an anxiety attack. And the hospital was completely, you know, he was over there, no one really cared. And it was just like, he just didn't know what's going on, honestly, with me at all... until it was time, and like, my sister's, like, hey, you know, she's having a baby… It was like… he was completely excluded. They didn't think to ask him anything, to let him know what was going on. I didn't even know what's going on... So to, like, have that assurance that everything's okay with your partner, and everything's okay with you, and, you know, you can get through this pain, you really have it in you, you know, someone to remind you to go to the bathroom… because, you know, that can be a conflict of trying to have a baby holding your bladder, and all of those things… It's just like, it really makes a difference…

SAMIA: My gosh, I can imagine... And what you were just sharing about the partners... I mean, I think, coming from a culture, you know, an Asian culture… like, my parents are from India and Pakistan... And I actually lived the first 18 years of my life in Asia, before we came to America… And, you know, one thing that I saw over there that I think is different in America, for most people in America, although I think in communities of color, we do the best we can to hold on to these kinds of aspects of our culture wherever we are… but what I'm talking about right now is in the context of, you know, like, when a woman is pregnant… I mean, that's something that's very celebrated. But it's not just, okay, we throw you a party one day, and then, you know, that it's…It’s sort of like, you know, there's a saying that, you know, a child is raised by the whole community. And so from the… from the time that, you know, you're pregnant, throughout your pregnancy, after your pregnancy, the community like wraps around the women and there's, like, experienced mothers all around you, you know, whether it's your own mother, your mother-in-law, your aunts, your sisters, etc... other elders in the community… And they're, like, sharing their experience, their wisdom, and, you know, there's… like, I remember I was watching this one drama episode thingy where they were actually trying to do a like, a... the story was about generational conflict happening. And they gave this, like, really interesting example where there was a scene where there was the mom and then there's a daughter. And the daughter was pregnant, and the mom was trying to give her some advice about, you know, how to take care of herself in pregnancy. And the daughter, you know, there were showing her character as having this attitude of, I don't trust the traditional Indian way of doing things. I'm just going to go to my Western doctor and only listen to my Doctor, what they say... And you know, and the mom was like… they were giving the example of something and she said, "Well, my elders taught me to, like, they told me to go climb stairs so I can get some exercise that I need during pregnancy. And they helped me to figure out, okay, well, this is enough, and don't go beyond this. You've done enough..." Because you know, there's a balance to strike between… like, you don't want to completely just sit back and do nothing while you're pregnant. But you can overwork yourself and strain your health… And so how do you find that balance, like, and on so forth... And that comes with experience, you know… And so the mom in this drama was, you know, like giving these kinds of examples of how she was helped by her elders, the community around her, to figure these things out... And she was like, trying to get her daughter to see that, you know, just depending on the doctor who’s, like, one voice and one perspective… that it may not be, it may not be sufficient. And I personally thought that there was a lot of wisdom in that, in that idea. Because, I mean, honestly, like, with Western medicine, I've seen that, like, over the years... I mean, with research, I mean, it's a research-based initiative, of course… but it's like, as the research comes out, and so forth, they change their protocols, they change their understanding of what's right, what's beneficial. And in a way, that's good. But the thing is that because, unfortunately, there's so many gaps in terms of, like, there's not enough research being done, the research that has been done is still relatively new and recent, and so there's just so many gaps in knowledge when it comes to these issues. If you… and if you... So if you're just depending on these Western institutions and systems of knowledge, you really sort of do find yourself, I think, at a bit of a disadvantage…

KAY'LA: Yeah. You know, that's something that like with my trainings, and like, even with families that try to restore, like, those, those practices of old times, just to be aware, and even if it's just instilling the strength in them, just reminding them of, and empowering them with the strength that they have… but obviously, Western medicine, it does have its place. But the thing is, when everything happened, where, you know, they because, you know, like you said, people were given babies with their… with, you know, groups of women, and their partners and midwives, throughout history. And then things changed. They started to demonize granny midwives and the ideology of that and changed it. So then everything went to the hospital system. And when they were doing trials on black women and so forth, they, you know, they demonized what was natural and normal for people to do when they have babies. And then they built up the system, the OB system... so now, there's this new standard of health care. But really, like I said, Western medicine has its place. The standard, the norm, shouldn't be surgeons given… you know, helping deliver babies. That's just it, you know… they have their place. If it's an emergency situation we should have an OB, we should have a surgeon... But midwives, you know, we're the ones giving brith to babies… it should be a more, a more holistic approach, at least in the sense of following the body enough… the body is giving signs of emergency… we know that we need to proceed with you know, the right protocols. But if the body is operating at a normal, you know, operation when it comes to giving birth, then we should be following the body. It should be, you know, minimum… you know, we have midwives, which is, honestly, it's all a lot cheaper than the hospital system alone. So we know that… about against the system… But yeah, so those old practices and those old ways are, like, I do really feel it's important to learn and to know, because when people are going to the hospitals, like you said, they're just listening to their doctor. And that's also a problem because… I feel like the doctor should be more equipped to, to really… they should really be forced to make sure they're giving informed consent, for one, and not pressuring people into doing things… because of, you know, whatever they have going on or, you know… whether it's them setting an induction date because the person is 38 weeks and they have a vacation coming up, or… All those things shouldn't be okay... Like that's not okay... You can't force a life coming into this world because of, you know, circumstance that you guys have going on. But all those things create problems. And we see that, because there's a documentary called ‘The Business Of Being Born”. It's actually the actress Ricki Lake, she like made it. It's a really good documentary, but it really highlights how the hospital system is literally a system in giving birth a business. So when people are going in there to give birth to their babies, you know, other people are coming in to punch a clock. So it's a different perspective… and again, it creates a gap... And when you have one, you know, one part of it, you know, wanting one thing and then, you know, trying to force other things or creating interventions, it creates problems…

SAMIA: That's right. That's right. Oh, my gosh... I mean that... this turning healthcare into a business… I mean, that has been creating problems in all areas of healthcare honestly, not just in the context of birthing. I mean, the fact that doctors are so pressured for example, to just get their patients in and out, in and out… like, just the other day my dad was like… if you have multiple problems, health-wise, that you want to go see your doctor with, make a separate appointment for each problem… because you're, I don't know how you found this out …but he was like, our insurance, the doctors are given, like, no more... Like, they're told that you shouldn't spend more than 30 minutes per patient. And so if you have a complex situation going on in terms of your health where you need to sit with your doctor for more than 30 minutes, you're in trouble. Because your doctor’s under all this pressure to get rid of you in 30 minutes because they've all these like quotas to meet, and the insurance won't pay for extra time, and you know things like that... And so, it's like… that's just really sad…

KAY'LA: Yeah. And that is why advocacy is so important… and education... so people can understand their rights and advocate for themselves and say, you know, that's not enough time... I still have a lot of questions… you know, like if you... When can we get these questions answered, you know… or you know, just be able to have that power… Because in the Health Care System overall, there's a hierarchy… You know everyone looks at the doctor as, you know, this, you know, superior person… When really, if it's not here it should at least be the patient is above and in control of their health, and then everyone else... But there is supposed to be a partnership where, you know, you're coming on, really to work for me, but to be a partner in my health care, but not to take over and make those decisions for me, or to silence me, or make me feel bad when I ask a question... Or tell me this is the way it's going to go because you understand this language you're speaking… versus helping me understand it to make the best decision for me... Because essentially doctors are just practicing providers. We have to remember that, and everything that's learned is based off of our bodies and us first. So we have to, you know, remember those things as well…

SAMIA: Yes... Oh, this made me think of two things. One, that you know, the idea of we see the doctors is in this Superior position… but the truth is, like, especially in the big hospitals, the doctors themselves are just part of the machine... They’re just one part of the cog… and oftentimes you know the doctors are not in control, because they're being... There’s all kinds of pressures and stuff that is being put on them through the administration, through the insurance constraints, this and that... So even when oftentimes, like, I know so many doctors… I mean in India and Pakistan, you know, our… one of the top three favorite professions all parents want their children to go into is to be a doctor. And so just in my circle of family, we have like so many doctors… and you know they tell me that, you know, you can get stuck as a doctor, you know, in these systems and feel out of control in terms of, you want to do more and better for your patients… you can see that you're not providing with them with the best care that you even could provide them with… but you, once you are stuck in that bad system, you're stuck, and you're not able to even do your best... So you know, there's a need to think… like as a patient, and be aware of these issues, and be like, okay… in terms of empowering yourself to make decisions and so forth... And I mean, the other thing you made me think about actually, is this podcast I was listening to... It's a podcast... It's called "Pay The Tab", and they actually focus on the idea of reparations. And what that means, and what it looks like… and they did this one episode on... Man, I'm forgetting names... but there's a white doctor person who's considered the father of gynecology, you know… and he's like…

KAY'LA: ..J. Marion Sims... I think this is that id his name…

SAMIA: ..yeah, whatever his name is… but in this episode they were highlighting the fact that he actually conducted so many like brutal experiments on women, particularly black women, in the name of, you know, doing research, gynecological research… and there was like, like without giving the women anesthesia, without you know giving them actual information about what he was doing to them, you know… like, he forced them into, like, all kinds of really painful procedures and processes that created all kinds of ill effects for them… and didn't care... I mean, so, you know, thinking back again about the idea of systemic racism and other…

KAY'LA: Yeah…

SAMIA: …you know, issues where our health care... it's not just about our health, you know… there is so much more going on and…

KAY'LA: Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up about… his name is J. Marion Sims... I actually teach about him in my class also… because there is a long history of trauma, especially for black women in, you know, marginalized communities, black and brown people... And that's where it started... So they started doing those trials, this is how they built the Gynecology system, that is, you know, still giving adverse outcomes to these women today. But he was doing those trials on those women, unmedicated procedures… to build this medical journal or to use for healthcare. And so like, there's a lot of... a lot of trauma markers… so like epigenetics, I don't know if you've heard of that, where like those things that affected like because we were in our grandparents, in our mothers and our grandmothers and so forth... So the trauma that they've experienced through medical trials or the birthing experience they've had… can leave trauma marks on us... so we experience some of those traumas today. So like by us talking about it, and how you mentioned… the mom trying to like show those ways, those old custom ways, of birthing and doulas, and us coming back to reclaim the natural essence of birth, is helping to rewrite some of those trauma markers that we have on us from past experiences. And that's really, for me, like one of… what it's all about… it's just kind of changing those things from before, now, and hopefully the future… well, not hopefully… for the future as well... because everything matters. And everything that is happening and that we're doing as birth workers, and even having this conversation, is changing those markers…

SAMIA: Can you give me an example of one of these trauma markers that is reflecting this kind of generational trauma being passed on... Like, what could somebody be experiencing as a symptom that would be like, oh, this might actually be this trauma marker, that's a result of this kind of generational trauma…

KAY'LA: Yeah. So even from like just list their great grandparents, you know, experiencing maybe being on a breeding plantation... So having those, like… the trauma that they experienced while pregnant with us, it can affect how we give birth. It can like… because trauma is one of those things, it's like it can show up in a lot of different ways. So it could be in a life, a life experience, where like maybe we, again, have difficulty giving birth, or like going to the hospital… even with that, I mean people will have like, you know, like, they have like "White Coat Syndrome" or something where they may experience health complications because of going into the hospital. So it just really depends on, like, the circumstance …so if our grandparents were experiencing adverse birthing outcomes, we can still be experiencing adverse birthing outcomes just from the trauma you know alone that we've already experienced and that genetic mark that it has made on us... So not only do we still have like systemic racism and all those things that keep, you know, making it worse, but we also have, you know…. some of us may have trauma, you know, birth trauma... that has just been there from before… or even our own birth… coming to this world could have been traumatic and, you know, leaves… you know, affects you in this world... Because people do get affected by their births and don't know it, but then it shows up in different ways…

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah... I hear what you're saying... I've recently been sort of becoming more aware and learning more about the… this idea of generational trauma actually, so it's really, it's really, fascinating actually... Because I know like for me, there was a part of me that didn't want to believe in this idea of generational trauma because I want... I was like so, wanting to be in control of my well-being, my health, my safety… that I was like, I didn't even want to face the fact that there were things that were outside of my control…

KAY'LA: Yeah…

SAMIA: …that were impacting me and affecting me... I was like, "No! No!" All it is is what is now, and I control my now, and I control my present… And I just didn't want to face anything beyond that because then it began to, like, weigh on me and make me feel like, you know, helpless in ways... And I hated that. I had a real issue with that... And so... But you know, it's really important, it's really important. It's like you just, if you turn a blind eye to to problems that are actually existing because of your fears and stuff, it actually just makes the situation worse, and it just creates another layer of fear. And actually, even creates issues in terms of your being able to find and implement the best solutions for you because you're not taking the full picture into consideration, in terms of what the problem is, what the root causes, and how to heal it. So…

KAY'LA: Yeah... And stress, you know, like, with trauma, stress is one of those things that does have a physical impact on people. That's why it's important… like, nutrition is important for pregnancy because certain foods can you know cause stress, chemical stress. And you know other things as well... So like again if you, if your mom was stressed when she was pregnant, you couldn’t deal with stress, you know, because you were, you know, you were in her womb and you know… But the thing is like you do have the power to change things. Just like again, the, you know, all the efforts that we're doing, these efforts are changing things… so for you, and for your generations, like, you're changing those things, you're taking control back, and remembering those things and putting it at the forefront. So then you can overcome it and, you know, dictate the outcome and change it within you, starting with your thinking. Because it's like, if you can first start to believe that it's even possible to, you know, have a birth… it’s even possible… it's possible for you to to do this, you know, without relying on anything else, then you can, you know, do anything at that point.

SAMIA: Yes. And thank you for giving us that reminder because the fact is that, whatever traumas you might have experienced, or challenges with our health that we may be experiencing even now, our bodies have amazing self-healing capabilities… and even in the context of our brains, like the physical brains, like, even modern Western medical science now recognizes that our brains are plastic... Well, it's called… "neuroplasticity" is I think the proper term to… just to... And it basically refers to the fact that our brains can change. Like, there was this idea some… up to some decades ago that you know you're when you're born of course your brain is changing and growing but then you reach a certain age, basically adulthood, and then your brain can't change anymore... But research has shown that that is not true. Our brains retain a certain amount of plasticity and that ability to change throughout our lives. And, you know, so in the context of healing, it is possible… and it can happen for all of us, no matter what kind of challenge we're dealing with in our health or trauma. So actually, on that note, Kay’la... Can you share with us some maybe tips or solutions that you implement, and teach your people to implement, in terms of creating more birth equity, but also improving maternity health…

KAY'LA: Yeah. So main... One of the main things is advocating for themselves. So not just clients, but also doulas, helping to install that confidence, and advocating for themselves… and understanding the partnership between provider, and patient... So then they know that they literally have the right to say these things or to request these things for their health care. I actually facilitate a training that was… is put together by the Black Coalition for Safe Motherhood… there's a retired OB doctor, Dr. Leslie Ferriting, she's amazing. And she put together this course... And it's just like a Hands-On mini workshop to help birth workers and patients feel confident. Hearing from a doctor, like, when I first took the training I was like, wow... Like, so now whenever I have them, I always have forever come in because to have that credibility and hear a doctor tell you that you can say these things to a doctor, you can say no, you don't have to go in and be induced if you don't want to... What's going to happen if you don't show up to that appointment? You know... What's going to happen if you say no to that, you know, procedure... So just really getting people comfortable with speaking up for themselves and understanding their rights in that way... And then understanding, you know, the you know the... I guess the maternal health adverse health problems that we see and just being aware of that, so then you know right away, especially when I'm working with a family, that is you know a black or brown family, just understanding these statistics so then they can understand, you know, that some people are going in there and not bringing their babies out, or they're not coming out... So it's important to understand for one that you can advocate for yourself and to make sure you inform yourself before just allowing anything to happen. Allowing doctors to take over something you're not comfortable with… and to speak up on your care... Education is super important for me especially for equity because I feel like, if we have at least the right education, we can make those informed decisions, we can vet the hospital we're going to give birth at, we can vet the doctor we're going to give birth with… if they have a high C-section rate then… and I want a natural birth... I'm not gonna go to that doctor. So understanding things like that and knowing your body like, is so important. Just knowing what's going on during your pregnancy, you know, what's the baby doing... what you're doing… what's going on in your body… so you understand the changes. And if something doesn't feel right, again, then you can speak up on that. And then advocate for yourself on that... I love teaching women to think about equity birthright... So like and also the trauma-informed care… so I also always bring in one of my Doula sisters, she teaches trauma-informed care, and we incorporate that into the Doula training… because trauma is everywhere... Everyone's dealing with trauma in America probably… so like, I feel like everyone should operate with trauma-informed care when dealing with people, especially community. So just understanding that with trauma-informed care, when we're supporting families... and I was going to say something else besides trauma-informed care…

SAMIA: Can you actually just explain for people who are not familiar with the idea of trauma-informed care... What is trauma-informed care?

KAY'LA: Yeah. So trauma-informed care… just a basic definition when thinking about the top of my head… For me it's just like being mindful of what people may be going through... So insta... Like for instance, you know, a doctor coming in and just you know touching someone or something trying… that can rub someone the wrong way if they've dealt with a traumatic experience. So you know, maybe asking consent to touch that person or you know just again being mindful of what people may be going through. So when it comes to that aspect of birth like we show the doulas like a plan that they can... We should, we first show them like birth rates and then we also go through, and just show them like different things they could do to make someone more comfortable… and make sure that they're being mindful of any trauma they may be going through before approaching that person. And again like in communities you see it more… where it's very… it's more important to just be mindful of that because, you know, you never know what situation or what family you're dealing with... So just being mindful of people's circumstances and the fact that they may have gone through something.

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah. I mean like for example, if somebody is really stressed out or panicking, rather than blaming and judging them, and being like, oh this crazy person... You're like, oh no, they're stressed, they're panicking, it may be because you know they've had a bad experience in the past, whether it's related to birthing or this kind of generational trauma that's impacting their current experience, you know, with birthing, etc... And so when you, when you are like, okay, they may have gone through something, then you can ask them questions and be… and then it makes you more compassionate and willing to maybe make some simple adjustments in how you're doing things so that they feel more comfortable and secure, you know…

KAY'LA: Yeah. And I feel like that should be a norm... you know like you know just to be mindful of what people are going through... Like the whole world kind of needs to be trauma-informed to just, you know, carry people... because you never know, you know, you never know what someone's going through. Like you said, you know, just like for instance, if my midwife, during my second birth, didn't realize from my past experience… when we told her and she saw my partner during the birth with my second daughter, she like... well, even before then we were in a meeting, and she was like, she kind of like identified that he was having an anxiety attack that time... So during the birth, he was again a little drawn back, having a moment… and she was able to like help him through that. And you know, he was able to have a better experience in that moment as well and be more supportive, and you know, be more comfortable in everything in that way so…

SAMIA: Awesome... Okay, okay. And I might have distracted you from thinking about… you were thinking about some other tips that you wanted to share…

KAY'LA: I would say besides those things, again, just being mindful of the differences in everyone… and you know, everyone comes with their own story... So just first being mindful of the person and really trying to understand that, and then from there like, giving care. And then just like, again, looking into rights, your rights… and in the hospital if you're a pregnant person, really looking to your rights... Getting a doula or someone, a labor support person, that can support you, even if it's not your first baby because everyone can benefit from a doula. Again, especially if you are in those categories of having adverse birthing outcomes… so if you are a BIPOC and anyone in the BIPOC community or any other marginalized communities... get you a labor support person to help you go through that, and they do more than just at the hospital... A doula becomes like a lifelong family member… like, I still have my clients reach out to me, they're sending pictures, they ask me questions, having more babies, seeing if I'm available... And it's just like a lifelong partnership, honestly, when it happens. So, I don't know if I answered the question... I just got started right…

SAMIA: No, no, it was wonderful... Thank you so much. And actually, you made me think of… we're going to start wrapping up for today, but I have another question or two for you... And one question is where can people go to get this education and learn more about their rights and the support that they have… because, you know, I know it's like so, so critical to have the education and the right information, but a lot of times people just don't know where to go. So where can they get this info?

KAY'LA: Yeah. So I personally, I do have a website. It's actually being worked on right now, we're updating some things, but it's birthembrace.org... I also have an email if anyone wants to reach out to me personally. I answer questions for anyone... And it is birthembracecommunities... So it's plural "IES" at the end of communities @gmail.com birth embracecommunities@gmail.com. People can reach out to me on social media... It's just my name Kay'La Mumford on Facebook or IG... And then, in your community I feel like in a lot of communities there's different like resources… like, you know, you should there should be like a group of doulas that you can connect to in your community... If you reach out to me, I can connect with doulas… most of them are mainly in southeast Wisconsin, but I do know doulas in other areas as well... And then I can help connect you with like some doula groups... I just can't think of them right now off top but, yeah... And yeah, again, I don't mind answering any questions at any time as well…

SAMIA: Thank you, Kay'La... And you know as we're wrapping up I want to go back to something that you shared earlier, towards the start of our episode, where you talked about oh you started modeling also… and I was talking about how I think that's so wonderful and can support you know whatever business you're in… having an amazing model to represent and uplift your brand… that will, you know, be so beneficial. And so, I think, cool and exciting... So can people contact you if they're interested in working with you to help them with that aspect of things, like, to hire you as a model or something…

KAY'LA: Yes, please do... So modeling is like a personal passion I've had since a little girl... So that would make my day if someone reached out to me for that for sure... but absolutely, do. I don't... are you going to share my contact information?

SAMIA: We will, we will…

KAY'LA: ..okay…

SAMIA: ...absolutely... in the show notes... Everybody listening, please make sure you check the show notes. So whether you want information and get more help and support when it comes to issues of maternity health, birth work, etc... or you want to hire a wonderful, beautiful model to help with the uplifting of your marketing and branding, etc... Please connect with Kay'La. Check they're show notes because we will drop all her links in there, so you can connect with her with ease. And yeah, I think that's, that's all I wanted to say... Any last, last words from you Kay'La?

KAY'LA: Thank you so much for having me on the show. It was fun and I always get so excited talking about this... And I just hope that I inspired someone to you know maybe get a doula or to look into their rights… understand they have the power to birth their babies on their own. And just to follow your dreams and know that you can do anything regardless of barriers in the way. So if I did that today, I'm super happy and thank you for having me again…

SAMIA: You're so welcome, Kay'La... And until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)