SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet! I'm so happy you are joining us today because, guess what? We have a very special guest with us today. And it's my friend, Neil Rosen, who is a Motivational Life Coach... And I'm so happy to have you back, doing another episode with us, Neil. Welcome…

NEIL: Thank you. I love your greetings... And it's so good to be back.

SAMIA: Yes, yes. Oh, okay, so Neil, for those people who might have missed our previous episodes together. Can you tell us more about who you are and what you do?

NEIL: Sure. So I'm a Motivational Life Coach. Prior to that I was an educator for 32 and a half years as a school counselor and school psychologist. And so what I do now is that I try to help people reach their personal goals or business goals... I think a lot of times people just need that extra push because of their, I think their fears, anxieties... maybe internal dialogue with themselves with their negative self-talk. So I try to help people get over that so they can successfully achieve their goals.

SAMIA: Yeah, that is so cool. That is so cool... And you know, the cool thing about our conversation that we're going to be having today is that normally, most of the time, I reach out to people… I'm thinking, "Okay, you do this amazing work. And I'd love to interview you on this topic or that topic." And in this case, well, Neil and I, of course, have done interviews before… but in this case, Neil reached out to me because, you know, recently, I've been publishing a number of episodes where I've had women who are experts in relationships, or relationship coaches, and so forth. And we have been talking about different relationship issues. And of course, because all those interviews are with women, we've very much been  giving a women's perspectives on those issues. And Neil was listening to some of those episodes. He was like, "Hey, I want to share a male's perspective..." I think that's a fabulous idea. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. And I am really looking forward to our conversation today...NEIL: Oh, thanks for giving me the opportunity. So the last speaker I heard was Dr. Mari Kovanen… did I pronounce her last name right? 

SAMIA: Yeah. I call her Dr. Mari.

NEIL: And I noticed she was a licensed psychologist and a dating coach. And I just wanted to give a male's perspective. I agreed with a lot of things that she was talking about. But…

SAMIA: ...what are some of the things that you heard she said thar struck you?

NEIL: Well, she talked about this intoxication in love... And sometimes we put blinders on because these emotions take over us… And sometimes we don't see some, maybe red flags, that normally we would notice. But since we have this emotional, I guess, strong emotion, that she call it an intoxication, I think it sometimes blinds us of, you know, the person that we're debating…

SAMIA: Yeah... If I remember correctly, we're talking about you know, experience the emotional cocktail, as it were, where you do sort of, like, get caught up in strong emotions and feelings. And that… because, you know, our emotions are such a strong driver of our behavior, that it can… it can be a little bit challenging to maintain perspective on a lot of things that we may otherwise find important. I mean, for example, I remember one of the issues that... or examples that, you know, might have come up in our conversation was lifestyle. You know, like, just think about if you're serious about being in a relationship with someone in the long term, it's important that you make sure that your lifestyles are compatible. You know, whereas in this kind of context of, oh, you know, you’re feeling in love and you know, you're experiencing all these strong emotions, then you might just sort of not choose not to think about it or forget to think about are our lifestyles compatible, for example, that... If I'm remembering correctly, that was one of the contexts within which we were talking about strong emotions and forgetting perspective…

NEIL: Right. So what I want to talk about, and I don't even know who to give this credit to, I'm sure it's a psychologist or a therapist, but this person mentioned the three C's... The three C's are communication… open communication, the ability to compromise, and commitment.

SAMIA: Aha! Okay…

NEIL: I think these three C's are important if you're going to have a strong healthy relationship with somebody.

SAMIA: Yes.

NEIL: And there's another love coach, I'm gonna give her credit. This is Amy Nobel... And she's the founder of "Love and Conscious Dating", and she's a another love coach, I guess... And she came up with this... I really liked this concept. She calls it the three/four rule dating. So there's four key principles that you should know by the end of the third date. You know, do you have chemistry with this person? Is there like a physical attraction? Do you have common core values? Is there emotional maturity with the person that you're dating? And is there a readiness? Because a lot of times, I think people might have the chemistry.

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: ...they may have some of the same core values. But the other two are the important ones, I think… the emotional maturity and are you ready to be in a serious relationship?

SAMIA: Aha... Yes, yes. Tell me more... I think Dr. Mari and I were talking about that as well. Yeah. So what's your perspective on… like, what's the problem that people deal with when it comes to these… Like, let's talk about emotional maturity. When you think about emotional maturity and why it's so important to relationships... Like, what's the problem that you see people struggling with?

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NEIL: Well, are people being authentic? Are they being themselves? You know, are they capable of holding down a job? Do they have friendships? What are their friends like? What are their family dynamics like? Do they get along with their family partners? Or family members?

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: So that's what I would consider the emotional maturity. Because, you know… and sometimes, you know, I've heard from friends and so forth, from males and females, that people are putting on a facade. It's not who they really are…

SAMIA: Yes.

NEIL: And, you know, a lot of times... I think… And I remember in my 20s, or even in high school, for some reason, I always felt like I needed to be doing something on weekends. You know, I needed to either go on a date or go with a group of friends and do something... And I don't know, I guess maybe, at that time, I had social anxiety, but I wasn't even aware of it. Because I didn't like really being alone. But, you know, now being married… after 34 blessed years, and my wife’s listening to this... No, but I'm comfortable with myself.

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: And sometimes my wife goes, where are you going? I'm going to the movies... Who are you going with? I'm going by myself... She goes, really? Yeah, really. I'm going by myself… because sometimes I find it easier just to go with myself then try to ask friends and then you got to wait until they return your phone call or text and see if they're available. And I just find it easier sometimes… If there's a movie I really want to see, I'll go see it myself…

SAMIA: Yeah... Yeah, yeah… you know, when you were mentioning emotional maturity and the examples that you give… like, issues that can come up in terms of emotional maturity, it made me think about... Wow… Like, a lot of things came up for me in the context… especially when I think about like, comparing my Indian Pakistani culture and comparing that to the American dominant culture, you know there is, like, significant differences in terms of what counts as emotional maturity and what the expectations are. So for example, in my Indian Pakistani culture, most of us, you know, we have a certain level of competence, even as little kids, in dealing with other people, especially other family members. Because, you know, our culture, especially if you're leading a traditional lifestyle, which my family did, certainly when I lived in India and Pakistan, you know, we were in a joint family system. So, you know, you're always surrounded by aunts, uncles, grandparents, lots of cousins, not to mention friends, and you know, more extended family that doesn't live with you... And so, you know, even as a child, you know, you're constantly getting coached by your elders on how to behave and treat other people, especially family members, so that, you know, we can all continue to live together in relative harmony and peacefulness. Because it's not otherwise easy… like, to live with so many people that you have that, you know, that know everything about you. And, you know, who feel like they have a right to speak, and have opinions on your life and everything that you do. I mean, it takes major social skills to be in that kind of environment and make it work... You know. And so, that is something that I feel like I have had a lot of advantage, growing up in a traditional Indian Pakistani context the first 18 years of my life. But interestingly, like one of the things that I find in America, when I moved here, it's like this interesting contradiction I find… where on the one hand, because in America, there is a lot more focus on individualism and usually, you know, families… you know, either people are living by themselves, or even if they're living with their families, they tend to live in smaller units. So there's just, you know, just a lot more sense of freedom, in terms of what you can do with your life and having to answer to fewer people... You know, like, for example, once I moved here and it was time for me to go to college, I didn't have to answer to like, 10 different people about what major I was going to choose, and you know, what career I was going to have, or if I was even going to have a career or go to college or not. I just had to work with my parents on all of that. And it made me feel like, oh, life's so much simpler. And then once I was in college, I felt… found so much independence, and so much encouragement to… like, in the environmental, like, to start thinking for myself and for my own opinions and see myself as a leader, and it just seem like such a standard part of American culture. You know, and so, I've definitely become more opinionated, more assertive, more confident, like, as an individual… and a lot more open also… Because the other aspect of our Indian Pakistani culture as I experienced it, was that we worked out that we had to keep quiet about a lot of things that we didn't like, because it would cause disruption in the family and, you know, like, create unnecessary conflicts... But here, it's like.. I found actually people… like a lot of encouragement to express my opinions, even about the things that I was unhappy about. So, you know, when I see Americans struggling with authenticity, not being able to express themselves,or feeling like they have to put on a facade… at first, I found it surprising, you know... Yeah, and maybe I'll just pause there and let you respond…

NEIL: I was just gonna say, you know, based on what you were sharing about your Pakistani family is that… I don't know if you ever saw the movie, I think there's gonna be a new one coming out about the Greek wedding... It's a comedy, and the dynamic is…

SAMIA: …Oh, “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”?

NEIL: Right, right, right...

SAMIA: I’ve seen that one!

NEIL: So there's gonna be a third one, because I think the father passes away. And his last wish is for the family to go back to Greece where he was brought up. And the dynamics I think, are very similar to what you were describing. You know, that you got cousins, nephews, you know, your grandparents living with you or they're close by, and they know everything that's going on. All right... It's kind of like the… I don't know if you've ever watched that, “Everyone Loves Raymond”?

SAMIA: No, no. No, that one I haven’t seen…

NEL: Well, Ray Romano, he plays… he's married. And he has three young kids and he has a brother, older brother, that's a police officer. And his parents live next door, and they're always coming over. And the mother is always giving advice. So I was thinking that the dynamics, you know, the Greek Wedding and the Ray Romano, I Love Raymond, is very similar to what you were describing…

SAMIA: Aha. Yeah. So when you think about your friends and family, and the people that you coach struggling with emotional maturity and like, authenticity issues... Like, what's the root cause from your perspective for that, and what do we do about it?

NEIL: Well, I think, like I was saying before, I think you gotta be yourself. You can't pretend to be something else… because I know... the people now in their 20s and 30s, I think are doing this online dating. And then they put up a profile of themself and describe, you know, their interests, what they like, what they're good at, you know, what their job is, or career occupation is… And from what I've heard from my friends, and just people sometimes at work, is that people kind of stretch the truth... Or they maybe show a picture of themselves on their profile, like, maybe five or 10 years younger than what they actually are now. And so, you know, I think that's not being honest when you're meeting this person for the first time... It's like, you're not the picture I saw on online…

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: And I thought, I want to share this... and I don't even have my daughter's permission, but I don't think she would be upset with this is that… my daughter did online dating and the last gentleman she met, she actually married. And this I think this was before COVID or during COVID... I don't know that they just had a lot of conflicts because of work and so forth. They were just talking all the time… texting and chatting on Zoom, or some type of social media. They didn't actually meet each other in person for a month. But they were kind of like, good friends by that time, because they learned a lot about each other…

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah... Yeah... Yeah. You know, that's one of the things about conflict is that… on the one hand, it's obviously not pleasant. And a lot of people are not good at handling or dealing with conflict. I know I have major conflict avoidance tendencies. Like, especially in my younger days, I was extremely conflict avoidant, because, you know, I didn't have emotional maturity... I was like, very emotionally fragile, and I couldn't handle even small conflicts. I couldn't. So you know, my best strategy was to just run away from any kind of emotional upheaval or conflict that I perceived coming my way… But the thing is that as you mature and you grow and your capacity to deal with conflicts… it actually can strengthen your relationships and help relationships heal in ways that's not possible until you go through the conflict. I know, for example, I remember… this one conversation with my aunt is coming up particularly in my mind. This was like a few years ago, it was the first time my aunt found out that I was a survivor of child sexual abuse. And the person who sexually abused me is actually a member of my extended family... And so this was the first time my aunt was finding out about this, and obviously brought up a lot of emotions for her. And, you know, like, for me, because, you know, I've now been on a, what, 30 plus year journey of healing from that trauma, so I was like, doing okay, in terms of, you know, like my emotional management and so forth... But, you know, it brought up like, some strong... like, you see, what was actually happening to give a little bit more context is that… until, like, just a few years ago, I had never talked in public about the fact that I was a survivor of child sexual abuse. And I was at a point in my life where I felt it was extremely important for me to begin to speak up publicly about my experiences, so as to educate and help with prevention of child abuse, particularly like child sexual abuse. Because in my experience, you know, one of the biggest reasons child abuse continues to exist, and that we are not able to take better preventive action around it is that there's so much silence… Like people are not willing to talk. Survivors… many survivors don't feel empowered to talk, they're not at a stage in their healing where they can talk. And the friends and family don't want to talk. And oftentimes will explicitly… like, I was explicitly told by those people in my family who knew that you must not talk about it. And so you carry this burden, you know, of having to be silent, and keeping this secret. And it… like, really… it's like a huge burden to carry…

NEIL: Oh, yeah, especially for a child.

SAMIA: Yes, exactly... And so, you know, like, for me, I got to a point, like, a few years ago, where I was like, "No, I have to start to speak out. And it's not just about me. Like, this is something I need to do to educate and, you know, help take preventive action for our society as a whole." And so my aunt was very concerned about what that would mean for our family, and particularly the person who abused me, and how their reputation and etcetera, etcetera, might be affected, and this and that... So, we had, like... And so, you can imagine… Like, I was very passionate and heated about my perspective on the issue, and she had her perspective… And eventually, the good thing is, we worked through what we needed to work through. And she understood my perspective, I understood her perspective. And, you know, we worked through it. And the thing was that we had to sort of go through that conflict… I remember feeling like such a sense of relief having had that conversation… As tough as it was, I felt such a huge relief and a sense of like this... Because, like, once I got through that conversation with her, then it became easier for me to get through it with other family members and, you know, just... And then just speaking out in public after I dealt with the issue with my family, felt also so much easier. And…

NEIL: Well, that empowers you…

SAMIA: Yeah!

NEIL: …you know, before you probably felt guilt and maybe blame, and the family felt shame…

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's like so many... So it was not just me feeling guilty. There's like so many members of my family when they found out, they were like, "Oh my God, how could we have let this happen?" Because remember, I'm coming from, like, a joint family system... and we're, like, supposed to be so close and you know, all of that... And so, for a lot of my family members, they were, like, really shocked that this could have happened, you know, in our own home, and someone that we loved and trusted and continued to… Like, to this day, you know, this person, you know, he has status and a certain position in the family and so forth... So, anyway, the point that I was trying to make is that conflict can actually… like, once you learn to engage in it in a constructive, healthy way, it's actually really helpful for relationships in some ways. And in some ways it's really necessary to improve the health and strength of a relationship…

NEIL: Right... Well, I think, you know, every relationship good or bad, you learn from it. It's a learning experience.

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: So I wanted to talk... I read this article.

SAMIA: Yeah…

NEIL: …And it talks about “The Five Rules for Dating”, that if you want to have a serious relationship...

SAMIA: Aha…

NEIL: And I thought this was really good. So number one… I think this applies to males and females… number one, be clear about your objectives. What is it that you want? And what is it that you're looking for in a partner?

Two... Are you looking in the right places? You know, going to bars and stuff, in my opinion, is not the right place... You know, there, you're probably looking for a one-night stand. You know, be honest with with your intentions, what are your true intentions... You know, are you looking for a serious relationship? Or are you just looking for someone just to have… a rebound type thing?

Number four, search for common ground with that person. So that again goes back to the core values, you know, and if you're ready to be in a serious relationship, and is that person also emotionally mature?

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: And then this last one, I think is really important, is take your time... You know, when I was dating, I would get into relationships too quick. And I think I scared some of my dates off. Because I would get, I would get too intense. And I know one that, you know, I liked her very much. And she has the same name as my wife, Sherry... And she wasn't… this last one, she wasn't ready for a serious relationship. She was focusing more on her career. And I think those dynamics have changed now, too.

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: ..for males and females is that… the male was once, you know, in the 60s, or how I was brought up… the, you know, the male took care of the female, he was the breadwinner, and so forth. Well, things are totally different. Now, in females, females the number, the last time I looked at percentages, there's more females going to college now than males... And females are catching up on the salary scale, you know, the glass... whatever they call it…

SAMIA: ..ceiling... The glass ceiling…

NEIL: Yeah. The glass ceiling is starting to disappear, that women are getting, you know, the same salaries as men now... So they don’t depend on men financially. Women are looking for now someone who complements them or someone who can support their goals, you know, and accept them for who they are…

SAMIA: Yes. So, that's a really important issue... I think also… like, especially again, sorry, I keep going back to my Indian Pakistani culture... But you know, that's where I come from. So, you know, when we think about gender roles… again, in Indian Pakistani culture, again, if you're leading a traditional lifestyle, which most of my family was, and continues to do… you know, like you were saying Neil, you know, it was very similar, where the man is the breadwinner, the woman stays home. But things are starting to change. And, like, in my generation, and actually in the generation after me... wow… I actually have nieces and nephews now who are old enough that they're getting married and into relationships themselves. Things are changing… Like, even those of my family that are still back in India and Pakistan, things are changing... The dynamics are changing... The... And a lot of the change, as you were saying, for us also, is coming from the women. So how does that sort of… like, again, because I would love for you to share from a male's perspective… like, if a woman is, you know, in this space where she's like, "Okay, I want a career, and I want to balance my career with different aspects of my life, and I want a partner who will help me and support me in those goals"... what are the challenges that come up for the men who want to date or be in serious relationships with these women? And how do you recommend that they deal with it?

NEIL: Yeah. Well, first of all, I think before you get in a serious relationship, you got to be comfortable with yourself, and love yourself... Because I think a lot of time people go into relationships, and they're trying to find someone who's going to make them happy. And if you're not happy with yourself, how do you expect to find happiness with someone else? Happiness has to come internally. And .I think a lot of people aren't happy with themselves, and they try to find someone to fill that gap... And I think that's a big mistake. And then, I think the man has to be comfortable with having possibly a woman make more money than they do. You know, and be able to accept that, you know. I think, you know, I've heard conversations with some of my friends, you know, they joke about it, you know… oh, you know, she makes more money than you, you know, or are you gonna be a stay at home dad?… and things like that... So you got to feel comfortable with that as a man. And I don't know, I… you know, things are, are changing, you know, in relationships and on the roles, and I think we need role models. And I don't know if those role models are out there yet, because of the changes in the dynamics of relationships. You know, on TV, they… like, when I was growing up, you know, our role models were like the Brady Bunch, My Three Sons… I'm dating myself, but you know, those... that's what I saw on TV, and that's what I thought were family dynamics, you know, and what I saw in my family, or with my relatives, you… my aunts, and uncles and cousins... And that's what I based what I know, or what you see in the movie theater. And a lot of times what you see in the movie theater is delusional, it's not true. It's a fantasy... And I think, I think sometimes, you know, people look for that type of relationship based on what they see in movies. And it's not out there. It's not true. And I think they get disgruntled, upset, frustrated because they're looking for something that doesn't exist…

SAMIA: Yeah. So if… from what I understood, can... Like, when I think about, you know, why men might struggle with something like having their female partner working and possibly making more money than they do, it is because for so many, like millennia, you know, men have been raised with this idea that their value comes from their being the breadwinner, or from their being, you know, the providers of the family… and now this role is being taken away from them, or it's… not that... Yeah, that it might be not needed, that they may not need to fulfill that role because they have a partner who is equally financially free, competent and independent, and so forth... And so, I imagine that then you have to find some other purpose to your life, some other way to give meaning to why you're going to work and what work you're going to do, and so on so forth. So, what are you seeing... Like... So you mentioned, you're not seeing a lot of great role models in terms of how…

NEIL: I don't think the role models… I don't think the role models are out there in how to deal with these new dynamics of having a woman who's financially secure, who really doesn't need a man for the financial reasons, or, you know, a woman that's making more than a man... I don't think we have those role models out there on television or even in our own families.

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: ...to show us what that looks like.

SAMIA: So where... what... how do you deal with a situation like that? Where… what… How would you create new meaning for you, if you were in that kind of situation?

NEIL: Well, that's why I was saying before, you got to feel comfortable with yourself. You know, if you're comfortable with yourself, I think you're more easily able to deal with a woman who's financially secure, who really doesn't need you for her finances. But she's looking for someone who's going to support her and her goals, someone who could emotionally comfort her. You know, you have very common core values. And, you know, on family, you know... What I'm seeing, and even, even in my own marriage, is that people are waiting longer. I didn't get married, we didn't get married until we were 29. My parents got married, I think, like, they were 20 or 21. I know my wife's… my mother-in-law, she got married at 18. You know, a lot of people got married, right, like right after high school, or they married their highschool sweetheart. And things are changing now...

SAMIA: Yes…

NEIL: Like a good friend of mine, who I've known for over 30 years, we played tennis together. Now, we're playing pickleball together... Unfortunately, he got divorced, and he's in a relationship now. And he's with a woman who was married and she's widowed, she lost her husband because of illness… I think he had a heart attack. And, you know, I asked him, you know, why don't you ask her to marry you and stuff. And she doesn't want to be married. She's kind of like financially set. And she's set in her ways. She's kind of a happy just in having her freedom and independence... And the same friend that I'm talking about, his son, I just went to his son's wedding. He knew his girlfriend from work. They were friends and then they started a relationship and they were living together. They knew each other for nine years before they got married. And I'm starting to think that's the new norm, is that people are… people, young people in their 20s and stuff are waiting until they're more secure in their occupation… especially now in California to with the prices to buy a home, they're outrageous... I mean, young people today, I don't know how they're gonna afford to buy a home in, in California, I think they're gonna have to go to another state because the prices are so high.

SAMIA: Yeah, and I mean, maybe they're waiting to get more settled in their careers. But maybe it's also like an issue of, you know, you're in a relationship, not married, but you're in a relationship, and being in that relationship is how you're learning how to be in a relationship... That's how you are growing more emotionally mature, especially in the context of how to be in a relationship… because how... I mean, I think that's what I was saying is, like, where I find like, a lot of advantage in the kind of cultural context that I grew up in where, you know, because we lived, as I said, in such big families and so close with so many people, you know, we were constantly getting trained in how to be in relationships, how to create relationships, how to maintain relationships. But in America, you know, there's so much focus on becoming financially independent, on becoming technologically... becoming technically competent in terms of whatever work you're looking to do, and so on, so forth. But where's the education and training when it comes to like social intelligence? How are kids in America developing social intelligence? You know, where are they getting to practice these social intelligence skills? And…

NEIL: Well, supposedly form… form dating.

SAMIA: Right, right... And you see, I mean, this is my whole point is that when you're dating, if you're dating a teenager… you know what are the stats of, you know, teen dating violence? It's like a huge problem. Because here are these kids, they're like, again, you're in a cultural contexts in America where teen dating is normal. But these teens are… they have… they already... they're still figuring themselves out, they're still figuring out relationships, how to be in relationships. Many of them might not have very good models in their own homes or a lot of experience in their own homes in dealing with different kinds of people. Because, you know, if you're like in a small family, how many… how much variety are you going to experience in the family of different types of personalities, and you know, like, different kinds of, like, issues that come up? You'll be familiar with what you see in your family, but your family unit is so small, that your experience is still limited, you know what I mean? So, it's like when you get into… start getting into relationships, and then suddenly, there are all kinds of different dynamics at play... Because it's like, even with the experience that you have in your family relationships, when you start to engage in a romantic relationship, there are additional dynamics that you have never had to deal with in the context of family relationships. I remember in my family…

NEIL: I think that's… I think that's why you have these dating coaches now. Because, as adults never learned those skills…

SAMIA: Yes... And there's no one to really teach you. Because, like, in our culture, people did get married young too. But you continued to live with your family. And so again, you, you were in a context where you are constantly getting coached by the elders around you in how to be in a relationship with your now new partner in life, you know. And there was this whole process of the young couple being trained in how to be a couple, and not just a couple, but to integrate into their new larger families, as well. So… but in America, a lot of those structures are missing, you know, and so…

NEIL: I agree with you…

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah.

NEIL: Especially single parents… a lot of times there's no father figures. So a young man has no role model unless he has a uncle or someone else in the family dynamics to take his place.

SAMIA: Yeah. So for sure, I think that's one of the reasons why maybe it might even be a good thing that young people now are taking longer before they get into marriage, because, you know, they need to figure things out. Because it's like, with marriage, I find… like I would… I... My perspective is that it's a very sacred, tradition, or an institution that we have. And it should be taken very, very seriously. And it's like, in my culture, like, for example, in America… here in the American Indian Pakistani community, one of the things that I'm seeing our people struggle with, especially those who are new, first-generation immigrants, and then they have children over here who are growing up… I see them really struggling with… like, their kids want the freedom to you know, just date and figure out who they want to be with, through dating. But, you know, first-generation Indian Pakistani immigrants are coming from a culture where dating is not acceptable, dating is not really allowed. And so when they see their kids falling in love, the first thing that parents think of is… let's get them married, so that they can be in a lawful relationship with each other, you know…

NEIL: But don't they go in groups? I got the impression… maybe I'm wrong… from what I've seen in movies and so forth is that in your culture, dating is more like a group thing…

SAMIA: So depending on who you're talking to different people will give you different perspectives, right. But right now, I'm trying to… like, from a traditional perspective, dating, whether you're talking group or individual, like, just two people, dating is not okay. Dating is not okay... Like, you cannot be just in a relationship with no firm commitment or intention around marriage. It's not okay... Like, traditionally, if you're going to meet with someone, you know, different arrangements can be made, so you can meet with them. But it has to be with that clear intention that you're meeting that person to evaluate them for the purposes of marriage... So, you know… and in that context, yes, you know, you might go out… Like, the young couple might get… or the potential couple might get sent out with a bunch of, you know, their friends or cousins so that they can have some space to talk away from the adults. But not all adults will even allow that for their children... I mean, if you're really traditional and strict, they will insist that no, you meet in the home, or you meet where the family is present. And then you may be allowed to sit in a corner away from but still within sight of the adults... You know, so there are all these things going on…

NEIL: It’s like you have a chaperone…

SAMIA: Yes, yes, you need to have... So there are those expectations. And then you know, it's like, once you're married, you're not left alone to just figure things out by yourself. As I was saying before, you know, the expectation and the practice is that even after you're married, you continue to be... you know, you're just integrating with a larger new… Like, two families have come together now. And so now you're not… it's not just about the couple getting together, it’s about the families getting together. And so everyone's kind of learning how to integrate with each other. And the adults take the lead in terms of… I mean the… by the adults, I mean, the elders in the family take the lead in coaching you how to make this integration as smooth as possible... So yeah, you know, you can get married young, but you still have all of the support and you're enveloped within the structure in this context where, you know, you're in training to be in a good relationship. You learn over time... So, for our teens in America… there's so much teen dating violence that happens, because who's teaching them?...

NEIL: They have poor model…

SAMIA: Yeah, and even for, like the people in their 20s and, you know, who are like dating and stuff, it's a similar problem where it's like, how do they get to learn? They just have to struggle through relationships that they form and learn through that struggle…

NEIL: So I want to share this… I read this in man's magazine that what makes a man feel connected to a woman is hugs, kisses, smiles, offers of gratitude, praise, and words of affection…

SAMIA: Okay, okay.

NEIL: And then also it talked about what a man want most in a relationship, and I think this applies to the women as well, is that they want commitment and fidelity... But the word for fidelity, they use the words being faithful, loyal and trustworthy.

SAMIA: Okay, that makes sense... Aha. Yeah.

NEIL: Yeah. And now, I wanted to bring this up… on first dates… because I've talked to some of my friends and they're telling me these, these stories on their first dates that, that drives them nuts. And it was from this article too, and I go, oh my God, this is exactly what some of my friends were telling me is that on first dates people are just too negative... And they complain about their personal problems and their past relationships. And if you do that on a first date, I don't think they're going to have a second date. Especially talking about your, you know, personal problems that you're facing now and, you know, talking about past relationships that just didn't work out.

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: I just don't think that's really appropriate to do on a first date.

SAMIA: So it's interesting.. it makes me think of a question because, you know, we have talked earlier about the idea of being authentic, and being honest, in how you represent yourself to the person that you want to date or that you are dating. So how do you create that balance, or draw that line between like... So now, let say you're on a first date, and then you're like, "Okay, I have to be authentic, I have to be honest." But then there's also expectations of don't talk about this, or don't talk about that, in terms of things that may be on my mind... So where's the guiding principle in how do I determine what's appropriate to share at what point while remaining authentic?

NEIL: I think you gotta give the relationship time to develop... you know, I think maybe probably a couple months before I would share, maybe, you know, personal, maybe financial problems that you have, or, you know, past relationships that, you know… especially, I guess, if it's a divorce and you're dealing with a spouse about… dealing with a child that you share, something like that… I think I would wait a couple months until the relationship had opportunity to build or to develop…

SAMIA: But if you... just playing a little bit of a devil's advocate here… like, if you wait for, like, let's say, a couple of months, might not that be too late? Because like, for example, let's say if you have some serious financial problems, and you wait for a couple of months, what… like, the person on the other side is like, oh, I don't want to have to deal with this person's financial problems. Like, maybe if they knew more beforehand, more upfront, they could make a more informed decision about… Or if you have, like, a emotional trauma that you're still dealing with from a past relationship, but you don't… because it's going to affect your current relationship… but you don't talk about it upfront, or at least give someone a heads up, then, you know, two months in and then, you know, the emotional... you start to tell them about… oh I still have this emotional trauma and this is how it's still affecting me... and then maybe it's like…

NEIL: Well that's what… I think it's appropriate that that time, you know, a couple of months down the road you know… if they're at that point where the relationship, I guess, it's getting more physical and the person doesn't feel comfortable because their traumatic experiences, I think this would be a time to explain why you have these hesitations or why you're tightening up... You know, I think this is the perfect opportunity to explain why you're acting this way... so the other person understands, you know, where you're coming from, that it's not personally them. It's stuff that you're still trying to deal with.

SAMIA: Yeah, no, because the example that sort of like came to my mind was…

NEIL: ..because… I don't want to interrupt you, but I just want to get because I'm just thinking about this… I have a friend who's in a relationship. And I keep on asking him… why are you still in this relationship? I don't get it... I think it's about comfort. Because his girlfriend can't hold a job. She's always getting fired. He's always helping her. Like, doing a resume or a cover letter, because she's not that electronically capable. She's had financial problems. He helped her out once. And he told her that, you know I can't afford to do this all the time, to help you out financially, you know, you're gonna have to ask your brother, or maybe you need to go back and live with your brother. So I'm... that's another thing where… about red flags... And to me, that's a red flag.

SAMIA: Yeah.

NEIL: You know, that if a good friend of yours is saying, you know, why are you with this person? You know, they have so many financial and personal problems… why do you still with this person?

SAMIA: Yeah. Well, that's what I mean, Neil, that maybe this is like one of those cultural differences popping up in our perspective there, you know. So for example, in my culture, again, from a traditional perspective… like, when you start to evaluate someone for the purposes of marriage… because we're not going to date, right... Like, we are, as I mentioned before, that, if we are going to meet with someone, it's with the intention of… am I going to marry this person? Is this person a good person for me to get married too? …you know… We want to know upfront, like, what all the problems are, or potential problems are. Like, you know, you actually investigat each other's families, what is your background, your history… and you want to know what the downsides potentially are and if you're willing to deal with them… Like, people want to know, like, what is the financial situation of this person? Do we want to deal with those consequences? You want to know if there's like history of, you know, disease or illness or something... And, you know, and then you be like… and then you make a decision, as a family, or as an individual about, do I want to deal with that? You know, and so we want to know, upfront, like, where the problems are. In fact, you know, there's a very strong… Like, in general, you know, we are taught in our community, in our culture… the ethic is that, in general, you don't reveal your family's issues and problems to people who are outside of the family. It's like a big no, no. It's like, if there's a problem someone's dealing with… like, as family, it's your responsibility, and your duty, to support them and help them the best you can deal with that problem. And it's also your responsibility and your duty to not be telling everyone else and the world in general about what your family member is struggling with. Because you don't want to have other people outside of the family, you know, saying or thinking bad things about them and this and that. But the one exception is when there's a marriage alliance being made or when there's an investigation the families will initiate for the purpose of evaluating whether a marriage should take place or not… that's the one situation within which we are told, if you know something about this person that might negatively impact the person that, you know, the relationship that you know is being considered, you need to be honest and share about that. So for example, I'll give you an example... One of my cousin's was getting married. And you know, as Muslims, we don't, we're not allowed to drink or do any kind of drugs. And so because we are a practicing Muslim family, you know, we were very upfront and clear that we said… you know we are a practicing Muslim family. And in our family we do not consider it okay for people to consume alcohol or do any other kind of drugs... And so we, you know, we have this expectation that whoever marries into our family, the boy… he's clean in that way, you know, that he doesn't do drugs or drink alcohol. And there were like so many proposals that were brought to our attention that we had to reject because they didn't meet this one criteria. But how do we know whether the boy drinks or does drugs or not? You know, because these things, especially in India and Pakistan, like, no family will ever say, in general, like that, oh, my boy drinks… especially if they're like a Muslim family, right. They're going to hide that, they're not going to talk about that. But in… when there's a marriage thing going on, investigation going on, that's the time for people to be upfront and be honest. And be like, no, my boy drinks, you know... And so we have this approach and this expectation that, you know, we want to know what the problems are upfront…

NEIL: That makes sense…

SAMIA: Yeah. So, yeah…

NEIL:  So I wanted to talk real briefly… because I don't know how much time we have, but about some of the red flags to look out for... 

SAMIA: Sure, sure... 

NEIL:  The one is to make... If the person makes you feel bad about yourself. 

SAMIA: Yes.

NEIL:  If they're second-guessing their feelings towards you... 

SAMIA: Yeah. 

NEIL: ..they don't listen to you. If they don't support your goals. If they pressure you to get physical before you're ready... 

SAMIA: Yeah. 

NEIL: Relationships are all about them... And this is a key one, they don't get along with your friends and family. To me, that's a big red flag... Negative feedback from friends like I was telling you, you know, what I was asking my friend... You never meet their friends or family... and the person's like calling you crazy all the time… like if you think that the person's cheating on you, they just brush it off and say, "Oh, you're crazy. It's all in your mind..."

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah, you know, I agree with you… those are all really important red flags to be aware of. I think the one red flag that made me think about… context is important… is, you know, your friends and family having issues with your potential choice. Because immediately one of the contexts that popped up in my mind was racism, for example. Like, you know, like… or classism… you know like in my… okay, let me stick to the examples of in my Indian Pakistani culture… In India and Pakistan you know classism is a huge issue… like, people are very class conscious... how much money you have, what your class status is… these are huge issues… people are very very conscious. And as times have been changing, I think for the better, you know the younger generations, we are becoming less class conscious… or at least we are trying to create more equity and be less driven by class consciousness in the decisions that we make… especially, in the context of relationships, you know, where historically, traditionally, the expectation was, for example in the context of marriage, that you would marry into a family that was your equal… Or the exception was the woman could marry up, but a man must never marry down… because the man had to maintain the status, you see... And when the woman marries up, she assumes his status. But if a man marries down, he loses his status. And that was not considered acceptable. So either you marry equal or the woman marries up. But you know nowadays, you know, the younger people are challenging those notions and, you know, they're trying to create positive change from my perspective around these things. And when they do, they meet a lot of resistance from their families… And then it becomes like a real issue of, you know, like social justice and moral standing… Like, what moral stance are you going to take when your family is opposing your choice of partner and the basic reason… they have no better reason for making that opposition other than class consciousness and you know… and being discriminating in this classist way, you know. And so, if from a moral perspective you are taking a stance against this kind of classist thinking, and your family is opposing you, well then… I mean you have to, of course, make your decision how far you're willing to stick to your stance and how far you want to go in terms of, you know, taking the opposition of your family... but you know, that's one context I immediately thought of where maybe you're facing opposition, but it's okay, because you're taking a moral stance…

NEIL: Yeah. Well, this is a very complex topic that we brought up today…

SAMIA: Yeah... 

NEIL: Relationships... 

SAMIA: Indeed, indeed... 

NEIL: So I wanted to end with this one thing, this post I saw on Facebook. So it says, "Choice, chance, and change..." So it says, "You must take a choice to take a chance if you want anything in life to change..." And I think that applies to relationships… is that you gotta put yourself out there, and you got to have a positive attitude in order to try to find your partner... 

SAMIA: Yeah, yeah… I like that, and thank you so much, Neil… we always... Whenever we're talking, we lose track of time. And you're right. It is time for us to wrap up for now, for sure. But thank you again so much for taking the time to be with me today and having this chat…

NEIL: Thank you for having me on. It was a pleasure.

SAMIA: Yes. And so I will just end with a reminder to all of our listeners to check the show notes… we will share Neil's links in there so you can connect with him, and learn more, and get more support from him as a Motivational Life Coach, whenever you need it and whenever you're ready for it. So until we connect next time, I wish you lots, and lots of peace and joy... :)