SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet! I am so joyful to be with you again today. And you will be really joyful to be with us again today because we have an amazing, joyful guest joining us today. That is Vivian Joy... So…

VIVIAN: Hello…

SAMIA: ...happy to have you, Vivian. Welcome…

VIVIAN: Thank you. Some people just call me Joy. I was at an event yesterday, and they just said, "Oh, hello, Joy", I'm thinking well, there's worse things to be called than joy. So I'm good with it. Hello, nice to see you again…

SAMIA: Indeed, indeed... So Vivian, or Joy, or Vivian Joy... Please, just for those people who might have missed our last episode with you, will you tell us more about who you are and what you do?

VIVIAN: Well, do you want the short version or the long version… so who am I... So obviously, I'm Vivian Joy, I have been helping women to create joy in their lives for many, many years now… 1000s of women, because most of them don't actually… they feel quite disempowered. They're doing what they think they should do, what everybody wants them to do. Like women typically will become people pleasers, from being the mother to the wife or partner. And so actually, when they get into building a business, they bring all of that with them. So they're no longer enjoying that either. They're serving and not selling. So they end up really spending lots of time, giving too much, and not actually getting back what they need... So basically, what I help women with is to build their business, help them to build the joy in their business, enjoy that. So you know, fun and easy as your business is called. Because it can be when you're doing it your own way. Whereas lots of people try and do it other people's way. And that's never going to be our way. So we're going to find your own way in life in every part. So that's what I do as they do exactly mindset coaching, and sales, marketing, and strategy training. And I even coach and certified coaches, so that they can go and help other people as well, which is my own legacy. So it's great when we get to legacy level of life, isn't it? Where we're in the place where it is all about enjoying, fulfillment and satisfaction. So yes, I think that's where we want to get to, isn't it…

SAMIA: Indeed... Indeed. And I mean, like for me, doing the… this kind of work, where you're not just getting to help yourself, but you're getting to help other people, impact other lives… I mean, that is the essence of who a changemaker is, that is the essence of who our our community is that we're talking to right now. So you are definitely our people. You’re talking to the right community of people. Yay…

VIVIAN: Thank you. It's always nice to meet like-minded people. There are some miserable people in the world out there. And you know, we have, we could get into that, can't we? We had a really tough few years. And I think we're all just trying to get back on our feet. But financially, it's tricky. We've all the hike in prices of just about everything all over the world. Actually, I'm in the UK, I know you're not. But we've got that here. And you know, we've got that everywhere. So yeah, it's having an impact across the board, really. So we could be really miserable and worried and scared. But actually, that just makes more worry and misery and fear. So we need to be what we want to attract and we want to be what we want to attract. So fun, easy, and joy... Yes.

SAMIA: Indeed, indeed... You know, that is so important. It's like you're going to live your life anyway, you are going to be working anyway... Might as well work in joy, work in happiness, work with fun and ease, rather than all the other stuff…

VIVIAN: I have a client, she's a spiritualist, and she has this mantra that if it's not a hell yes, it's a no... And I really like that. Because so often we say yes to things just to keep everybody happy. And very often it makes us miserable when we're doing that. So yeah. So, you know, I'll give her own statement back when she's talking about, you know, whether the clients are right. And I'll say, are they yes and absolutely 100% yes. Because if not, there are a no... So we should be doing what makes us happy. But most people don't know what that is. They don't know what that is. They don't know that is... Because they're so busy surviving and trying to, you know, keep everything going that they don't stop enough to work out what it is they want to enjoy in life when they're given the choice. I made myself… when I was in a position where I could live anywhere in the world I genuinely didn't know where I wanted to live. I was like, this is ridiculous. I mean, even in the UK, I didn't know where I wanted to live. I was hoping that something was going to happen to give me some direction, rather than me choosing. And then I met my partner. So that did give us a bit of direction. But yeah, then we could both live wherever we wanted to and so there was two of us say, well, we don't know where we want to live. So just simple things like that. And it's often the case when somebody starts a business as well. They don't know what to do. I would have started one way before… I've been in business 20 years. But I would have started on way before that if I had any idea what. So yes… plus we wait for guidance rather than be our own guidance…

SAMIA: Yes, yes. Oh, my gosh. Okay. So you know, this is such a important issue, I think… you're talking about not knowing what to do… How do you figure out what to do? How do you make the right decisions? Like, every moment of our life we're faced with choices. How do we figure out what the right choice for us is... What the right decision is... Tell me more about how you work on that with your people…

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VIVIAN: Well, that's a great question. I mean, everything is a decision. Every, for every decision, we have a strategy that's built into the brain. So we create these from birth… realistically we start when we're about… really realistically setting down our strategies when we're six or seven years old. And some of these get wropped a bit when we're scared. But actually, those are the strategies we take with us for everything. So some people make decisions like by how they feel, and like, oh, in the moment, and real kind of spur of the moment decisions… act in haste, repent at leisure... Other people will go and research it and really think about it and feel into it and kind of really go into detail and actually sometimes never make the decision. They're waiting for that decision to be made for them a bit like me with the moving. And so… and then there's others who've got a hybrid of this. But the way I help clients is I help them to try things on for size. So for example, if you're buying clothes, it's hard to look at something online and think how it's going to feel or how it will fit. Or if it'll be comfortable to wear, or you know, all the things that you would, if you could go and try on in the dress shop, you would be able to do… So it's the same if you're making a decision, especially if you've got a few choices to make. So if you can try it on for size emotionally, mentally, even physically and financially and spiritually… whatever, you know, whatever that decision is, then you start to get a feel for whether that is the right decision. And say you've got… I don't know... Say you’re accepting a new job, let's say. And if you tried on those three different jobs and how they would change you and what they would give to you, and from your own perception, of course, because we don't know the reality, you'll start to really get a feel for which one is right. And I always say not just the positives, because that's, that's not real… because life isn't just positives, but actually even the negative. So when I used to run really big events pre-COVID… In fact, I ran my last one on the 20th of February 2020, 20 02 2020… Where I launched my She Enjoys Life Foundation. And before this, it was a massive event bigger than any event I've ever run… the cost of it was bigger, marketing budget… I needed more people… it was, it was quite a scary thing to do. Like, you know, two or three times bigger than events I'd run. And I remember one of my clients saying to me, "Aren't you scared?" And I said, "No, I'm not at all scared". Tracy, her name is... I said, "No, I'm not at all scared. I'm excited." And she said, "Well, what if nobody comes? What if something goes wrong", and she had in her head, all the troubles. And I thought, Ah, I need to when I'm trying this on and kind of future pacing it and imagining it and visualizing it, I also need to visualize what can go wrong, and all the negatives as well. Because if my brain can really get prepared, and know that it can cope with everything that could go wrong, then everything is okay. So I can move fearlessly forward, I can't... I won't have anxiety. So not only will I make the decision to do it, but actually I'll make the decision to enjoy the whole thing. So that was a really useful question that I had asked that day. And this Tracy has no idea to this day that that was probably a really important part of my journey and how I help clients now. So I envision what it would be like if the tech didn't work, if the speakers didn't arrive, if people didn't come. I tell you what though, I didn't envisage my first-ever event was… it snowed. So we had really, really bad snow in the UK. And I didn't visualize that at all. So there was one thing I did have to deal with. But because everything else in my head, I knew how I was going to handle it, that actually worked out okay, as well. So, yeah, visualize the positives and the negatives because the reason people stop making decisions or get stuck in fear is because they think they might not be able to cope with an outcome. So if we can let the brain know that we can absolutely cope with whatever the outcome is... then we are more likely to take those steps and move forward and make the decision. Because also, it's not just about making a decision, it's taking action. So like I've made decisions, lots and lots of times in my life to lose weight, and then not taking the right action. So that does say to me, I've never really truly made the decision. I've been stealing that decision-making process and not moving forward. Because decision plus action equals outcome. So just decision on its own is not enough, actually. Because we can be deciding still and think we've decided until we have to put something into play. And then it's not because then we realized we're still deciding, because otherwise we'd have taken a step forward. Not all of the steps, but just for the first step. So that's how I help my clients is, we look into the future, kind of almost like a crystal ball. Feel it in every single way. What were your partner think? What were your friends say? You know, what were your children think? What were your clients say? What will your, you know, whoever, whatever the decision is... Everything outside of that person, as well as inside... How will it feel? What will happen if it fails? What happened if it succeeds? What could go wrong? You know, what if you don't earn any money? If you fail financially... So all of those things. And then the steps to take forward... Because if that client then goes away, and takes that first step, and we know that decision has been made, and they're on their way. Now after that, it's just taking step after step after step, which we will logically like to do, we are very future kind of problem-solving facing. So yeah, so that's how I do it. How about you? How do you help people?

SAMIA: Oh, wait, wait, wait… before I let you asked me how I do it, I have questions for you. Because, okay, so as you were talking, by the way, I love this strategy, and I love this idea. And there's actually a lot of research that validates that your approach is amazing and awesome and really, really works. And let me think about a couple of challenges that I have run into... Okay, so I would love your wisdom on how to solve these challenges for any of our listeners, who might be facing them as well. So my first problem that I know I used to run into all the time with trying to use this technique was, you know, like how you said, to visualize and think through all the different potential problems also that you can run into, right. And my problem was, that I couldn't even think of what problems I could run into, you know… I really, genuinely, couldn't even think about what problems like… I couldn't imagine like, what could the problem be? I made such a amazing plan. This is... I mean, I was just, you know, stuck there. And when the problems came up, I was like, Oh, my God, it didn't even occur to me that we could have this problem. And I can't tell you how many times that happened with me. So how do we get better at even anticipating the kinds of problems that we might run into…

VIVIAN: Your perfect solution, my darling, absolutely perfect solution… and of course, it would be wrong for me to not say you need a coach because that coach, or that consultant, or that sounding board, actually asks… some of the best questions can come from your partner, your friends, or people that are don't understand. So they're innocently asking questions that make you go, ahh. But to ask you those questions, because some people are glass half empty, some glass half full, some don't care about your glass, but really want you to make sure that the drinking stays complete. So to be able to get someone to ask you all those questions, things you can’t possibly have thought of. So like, my partner, is very much the “oh it could go wrong”, which I love because I'm like, nothing's ever gonna go wrong. So my brain will automatically have a solution for every problem. Whereas she will always have a problem for every solution. And I love that because we're very, very different. So somewhere in the middle, we've got all the information we need. So you know, have a look. If you've listened to this, have a look around you… if you can't afford coaching or you're not sure having found the right person for you, there will be lots of people that are willing to say oh, no, that could potentially go wrong. Because for some reason we like we need to know the reason we need to look on the negative. So most people and maybe yours is slightly different. You're part of only 5% of the population that move towards pleasure more easily than moving away from pain. So that might be why your brain can't see the pain. It is only moving towards pleasure. But 85, 90, 95 -- stats change all the time -- will move away from pain. So they're always looking for that pain. And always thinking, what is that pain? What is that challenge? What could be the problem? What could go wrong... they will be focused on that. Because of course, the brain needs to say safe. So they're always on this. So it sounds like you've either done a lot of work on yourself, or you've changed your brain pattern, which is quite hard going. So well done if you have, so that you are always focused on the perfect and the good, and the enjoyment, and the passion and you know, all of that stuff... That's why you can't see the problem. So yeah, you need someone and there's, there'll be loads of them around for you, that can just ask all those questions for you to make sure… that would be my advice…

SAMIA: Well, you know, I'll make a confession... So I actually have done a lot of training at this point in terms of cultivating a solution-oriented, positive mindset. And that wasn't the primary reason I couldn't see or anticipate problems in my earlier days. My thing was, I think, a lack of experience in the sense of… I lived a very protected life, you know, where everything was taken care of for me by my family, like, certainly in the context of business and work, I never had to do anything. Like, there was no expectation that I would grow up to do any kind of work for money. And so no one thought to teach me even basic skills about you know, like, how to manage money or business or anything of that sort. And even when it came to dealing with other people, I was very protected in the sense that… well, I had a lot of social challenges. And so my way of protecting myself was to isolate and run away from any time conflict or drama happened. And what allowed me to do that was that my family with, you know, the best intentions and love in their hearts, just stepped in and saved me. So it's like, I could run away, right. And so when I finally felt ready to step out on my own and be like, "No, okay, I'm going to do something for myself. And I'm going to deal with challenges myself", I couldn't even begin to anticipate the different kinds of challenges that could come up, because I had no experience with dealing with challenges, whether it was in the context of other people, or just business in general, and the different things that can happen in business... So it was a very interesting learning curve and experience. And in some ways, I'm still learning of course…

VIVIAN: We're all still learning. We don't know what we don't know, do we? This is the thing… we call it in NLP… which I'm a trainer, I train coaches… and we call it unconsciously incompetent. So like, we just don't know what we don't know. And then what happens is our competence becomes a bit more conscious, and we realize how incompetent we are, so we become consciously incompetent... And that's a really, that's the place where we grow because we're like, "Oh, I need to know how to do that". And then we become consciously competent… I'm sure you've heard this... So like, we know what we're doing, but we're still really conscious of it. And then we go around, and then we become unconsciously competent. So we're just not even aware of it. So it becomes easy. And at that point, it's really tricky. Because we are so in our normal space then that way it's really hard to then take on and go back to that level of unconscious or conscious incompetence… so learning something new… And it sounds like you have had to do a lot socially actually just in life. So yeah, I have no concept of that at all. I am very unconsciously incompetent in knowing that because I had a very different upbringing. My parents were older when they had me. So I was basically trained to be able to look after myself as an only child... So it was the complete opposite. That's why you and I are very different in every way possible. You know, I was earning... I was running three jobs by the time I was 14 years old.

SAMIA: Oh, my gosh…

VIVIAN: So I was selling, I was working in a bar, I was working in a shoe shop… in fact, I probably have more money than I've got now, and honestly but because there's so many outgoings I could just spend it on shoes and food and you know, and wine as I got older... But yeah, so I was really trained from a young age how to look after myself, financially and emotionally… but not so much physically, interestingly enough, so it wasn't till my mother died when I was 30 that I used a washing machine for the first time. So I wasn't trained physically but all the other stuff I had down pat. So you had to learn some stuff. I had to learn it in different ways. So, but yeah, and I think it's really interesting to hear the background. I really do think that. So yeah... So you don't know what you're looking for. So again, you definitely need someone, some mentoring actually then when you're doing some decision making, if you're about something that's completely new, because if they've been there, they know what can possibly go wrong… they probably had it go wrong. I think that's why a lot of the clients I do because I've been in business for 20 years. And I say I've had all of the failures, and all of the successes, and everything in between. And I'm the sort of person that says, "Come on then, let's give it a go". You know, my parents were compulsive gamblers. So it was very… I'm very risk… I'm okay with risk, whereas some people are very risk averse. So I'm okay to go. What will happen if I run a free webinar? I don't know. Let’s just give it a go. There's no failure in my head, only feedback, like, that worked, that didn't, that should have happened there... what could you have done differently? So I feel like I do a lot of the testing, because lots of people aren't capable of that, or they've got too much to lose. Maybe because I haven’t got any children I feel like I haven't got any real risk. It's just me. And I'll survive at any given point, sort of thing… Well, I’ve my four dogs, but they'll be okay anyway, because they just need food. So yeah, so I think you know, that making in decisions, also, you have to think about your fear ratio. Some people, some people are really fearful of success and failure. And when someone says "I'm scared of failure", I'm like, "Could it be success?" Because they literally sit in the same place, they're the same thing, they are essentially fear of change. So something's going to change on a dramatic level. If you all of a sudden go from earning, you know, 2000 pounds a month to 20,000 pounds a month, there's going to be a massive change in every part… your social standing, your relationship with your family… everything is going to change. And most people can't deal with that… they can't future pace that… they just can't… even can't... Same as if you were to lose that income then and end up living on the streets. You can't, you can't deal with that. So I do lots of money mindset work, I don't know if you do… but understanding the floors and ceilings are really important, like, raising the floor and raising the ceiling and just kind of helping them and how they can get more incrementally more, without scaring themselves to death literally… Like, that's why a lot of lottery winners spend all the money and end up more broke... That's why you know, people when they diet, they lose weight, and then put it all on and then more because they're too scared of their end result that is unknown to them. We always fear the unknown. It's our… it's… most people… 5% of the population not so much… But it's… that's our fear, is the unknown, because we have to be able to cope with everything. The unconscious mind has to be able to have a belief structure is that we can stay alive and stay safe and certain. So that's why decision-making is so hard... Changes is hard. And we've had so many changes, as we started up with this interview, there's been so many changes. And you know, lockdown changed us all so much. We were all forced into things, to stop doing things, to start doing things, to behave differently, to be with people differently. And it's really changed most people in quite big ways. And they didn't want it. They didn't want the change. They were some of them were quite happy. I think some of them needed it. I think, you know, I needed it. I met my partner just before locked down and that, you know, that relationship wouldn't have gone in that direction… We were kind of forced into, you're either together or not. Like, are you going to be or not… like, you're going to have to take that risk. And such words so far, three years later, is a risk that paid off for us both now in our marriage. So so it did pay off. But I think a lot of people realize their life wasn't as they liked it. And they couldn't do anything to change it at the time. So they were stuck in this frustration part. Now we're allowed to… we're in the fear of change. Several people that are probably in relationships, that shouldn't be, because they realized they weren't right, but they just don't know how to change that. So yeah…

SAMIA: Yeah. You know I think that's like part of the blessing of when we do end up in these kinds of major crises, like global environmental crises… by environmental I mean, you know, the crises that are not just about my personal life, but like, you know, a pandemic. I mean, that's like worldwide, in this case. And it just hit us and created an environment of challenge that… and change for all of us to deal with. And one of the big blessings of going through a crisis of this sort is that even for those of us who maybe risk-averse, and fearful of change, it forces us to create some change in our lives and gives us that opportunity to create some change in our lives that we wouldn't otherwise have dared do… but you're so right… Like so many people I know, just in the last three years, man, they have, you know… like, in America, they like talking about how there's been, like, record numbers in terms of people quitting their jobs and refusing to go back to the jobs that they had. Because they've now had a taste for how things can be different. And they're like, we're not willing to go back to that same old way of doing things that was keeping us miserable and unhappy…

VIVIAN: Yeah, one of my closest friends... She was traveling before COVID, she was traveling an hour and a half each way to her job. So of course, then she started to work from home, she was like, there is no way I am going back to three hours sitting on a motorway in my car, miserable, moaning at traffic… like three hours a day is a lot, isn't it? That's it out there, potentially. But that's a lot of your life sitting in a car. So... And of course, it was proven through many companies that actually they didn't even need to be in the office. So lots of people realize they hated jobs, and that they could get out and how differently they felt. And I think, yeah, it's so easy to carry on with the same, carry on with the same everything… Like, eating patterns is one for me at the moment I'm trying to break. You know, it's so easy to just do the same. And I hear myself, which is crazy, because I do this for a living. And I do this at a high level. I hear myself say, "Oh, you know, you really do need to have the dessert after dinner." And I'm like, "That's ridiculous Vivian, you don't, what for? Like, you don't have to, you’re not dying. If you don't, in fact, quite the opposite. You’ll probably live longer because you’ll weigh way less, like..." So it… but we get so ingrained in things. You know, it's like, you know, people that make the bed before they leave. And they have to do it… like, they… these kind of compulsive like life coping strategies that are not really about life coping. They're just things we put in place to feel safe, so yeah... So I'm wondering how you, how you manage it then. I'm curious what your strategies are. I'm right back to the question again…

SAMIA: Okay, okay, well, I'll take it on. So wait, now I have to remind myself, what was the question that I asked you? It was like, oh, so if you cannot even begin to imagine what the problems are that you might run into, how do you help yourself in that situation...? So you know, like, for me, what really worked… because I am a student at heart, I've always… like one thing that I have been good at, is learning being a great student. And so for me, what really helped was just go into that learning mode and be like, I'm going to learn from whoever I can, and whatever source I can. And one of my favorite sources of learning is books. I love reading. And so I actually started getting all the books I could find… So for example, like in the business context, it was actually pretty easy, because there's like so many coaches and trainings, and business books out there that teach you about different business concepts. And so for example, there… yes… “The Mindset For Business”... Yes…

VIVIAN: It’s available on Amazon…

SAMIA: Exactly. So read a book, you know, like Vivian's... you know, and so then you begin to learn about, ah, these are the different things to look out for, these are the different kinds of problems that we can run into. And then as I mentioned, there is actually a lot of research that backs up what you were talking about, in terms of this technique, you know, visualizing, and thinking through, okay, what are all the different scenarios, good and bad, that we might run into and preparing for them... And so, you know, like, I read up on the research aspect side of things, and there's some really amazing books that I'm blanking on the title… I've been trying to remember the title, but I think one of the books, if I am remembering correctly that I read is called, Good to Great… No, I was in the second book that the authors of Good to Great… No, it was the book Good to Great that I read. And they have another book, but it was in Good to Great that they talked about this research specifically. And they found that one of the… when you look at great leaders of different businesses across industries... what distinguishes the great leaders from the good leaders, this was actually one of the characteristics… that the great leaders were able to think about, in advance, what all the different scenarios might be in terms of, you know, again, like, the good side of what would happen when they take various actions, but then also the bad side. And then in some ways, like people, other people, would say to them, oh, you're obsessed, you're being hyper sensitive, you're going overboard in terms of your preparations for when things go wrong, you know… But it was actually what distinguished them from the good business folks, and made them great, is their hyper alertness and awareness and preparation for not only when things went right, but when things would go wrong. Because then when things did go wrong, they were in a better position to deal with those challenges and respond to them and recover from them faster. So it's not that they didn't have problems and troubles either. But is it was that because of this characteristic and trait and way of doing things, they just got so much better prepared to recover and deal with when things did go wrong…

VIVIAN: Hmm, interesting. Very interesting, indeed. So as you said, proving me completely right with my strategy... But I know, it's been proven because I do it myself, and everybody I've ever talked to about it. But I have, if you want to hack… so in NLP, we have like a four question hack, which helps you to make a decision. So anybody that's listening to this, and of course, you could, and it's called Cartesian coordinates. Have you heard of that before?

SAMIA: No, tell me more…

VIVIAN: So in NLP it is for master practitioners. So it's very high level. And it can be a whole coaching session. But I'm going to shorthand it here for us, because I know we haven't got long. And so the first question if you're making a decision, so say the decision is to move house, let's just, let's just take an example... And so the first question you would ask yourself is, what would happen if I did? What would happen if I did? What would happen if I did move house? So that's the first question. And then you just kind of get everything out of yourself by speaking it out somewhere or journaling it -- really great question. So the second question is, what would happen if I didn't? So we'll look at the two different scenarios. Yes, this is self-coaching stuff... So what would happen if I did? What would happen if I didn't? First two questions... Third question. What wouldn't happen if I did? Hmm. Brian has a bit of a struggle with this. So what wouldn't happen if I did move house? And then the fourth question, which completely scrambles the brain is, and what wouldn't happen if I didn't move house? So what happens is it twists the brain into all sorts of the neural pathways to find out all the information. The second two questions are tricky to answer. The first two are really easy. But the third question is really the identifier. The third question helps you to look at things that you've never asked or thought or felt about. So you can definitely use that next time you are making a decision as well. So I call it the quick decision-maker. So the four-question quick decision maker. So hopefully, that's helpful to anybody listening, just write those questions down on a poster or something. And whenever you're making a decision, what would happen if I did? What would happen if I didn't? What wouldn't happen if I did? And what wouldn't happen if I didn't? So yeah, it's a bit of a tongue twister, really. So hopefully, that will help, hopefully, help someone somewhere…

SAMIA: Indeed, indeed... I love that. Thank you so much for sharing those four questions. And I can totally see the value in them. I mean, I've used I think, variations of that idea and technique…  I'm happy to have learned this from you…

VIVIAN: ..a parting gift around decision-making. Because it is hard, it's hard... It's hard. Do you know when it's harder when you're making a decision proactively, i.e. the good to write, like you just said with the book. So when we're in this position where it's okay, so like, I'm just trying, I'm just changing some structures in my business. The business works, it's all good. It's like, it's good, but it could be great. So actually, there's rist in changing it… the risk, it's like the risk versus reward, isn't it? The risk in changing it is that it might not work at all and I lose traction. Or the reward is actually it will be even better for everybody concerned. So I have a phrase that goes with all of this, "Fortune Favors The Brave". So whenever I'm thinking, "Oh, no, I'm scared, I don't know what to do, when to do it... Come on Vivian, fortune favors the brave. Come on, you've got this." Because whatever decision you make just sets off a whole new set of decisions. So as long as you know that you're okay with making decisions, and you can cope with whatever those decisions are going to give you as outcomes, it should be really easy. My talking of books, my first ever book, ever in personal development, so I'm going back a long time… I'm 50, so I was what, 23, when I discovered NLP… was Susan Jeffers, “Feel The Fear And Do It Anyway”... I don't know if you read that book. It's an absolute classic. It's not a very big book either. And it's basically talks in there… I remember the part that made me go, "Oh, I get it". There was a triangle and it said, you know, for every decision you just got two other decisions to make. So you're just literally… that's your whole life. Like, you just take that route on your journey. And then you've got to decide whether you turn left or right. It's literally as simple as that... So yeah, Susan Jeffers… feel the fear and do it anyway… I'm not on any commission for that. But yeah, it was a really helpful book on decision-making.

SAMIA: Yeah. Yeah... I love that, I have read that book, or at least in segments. And you know, that, I mean, just the title is so brilliant, because it is reflective of the core philosophy that the book is teaching. And for a long time, I must say it was my go-to also, like, in terms of feel the fear and do it anyway… because I had so much fear about, I mean, so many things. And I was so risk averse that I paralyzed myself over and over again. And so for me, this idea of feel a fear and do it anyway, it was one of the first ideas that I took on to empower myself… that was a more empowering thought and idea to move me into action. Because then it was like… because my previous standard for myself was, "No, I… until I'm not feeling fear anymore, I'm not going to do something." And it was like an impossible standard to meet in most cases…

VIVIAN: Because the brain always needs something to fix. It's always looking for something. And if there isn't anything, it will find something or make something… that is the nature of the brain, it is progressive. It wants to find answers and move forward. That's, you know, think about children. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why...? Is because the brain is continuously trying to work out why... So, yes, well done for finding your way forward, actually. I mean, it's yeah, it's not easy. Well, life isn't easy. Life isn't easy. But we do well in the different levels of life. We do well to get through them, we really do. So, yeah. It's been joyfull to talk to you as always. Absolutely…

SAMIA: Oh, thank you so much, Vivian. Thank you so much. And you know, there's more that I want to talk to you about and we are running out of time, so…

VIVIAN: Always… we could talk forever. Honestly, I'm happy to come back... Let me know the subject of the next one. I'm happy to come back and be a regular... I do lots of guest blogs regularly on things and people's masterminds and memberships as the trainer, as the coach, and you know, just as the conversationalist… so it's just joyful to connect...

SAMIA: Indeed, indeed. Alright. Cool, cool, cool... So, Vivian, we will go ahead and wrap up for today. And my last reminder for our listeners is please make sure you check the show notes because we will be dropping Vivian's links in there so you can connect with her and get some help and support, and make change more fun and easy…

VIVIAN: And quick... Yes. Yes, absolutely. Lovely... Thank you so much.

SAMIA: All right. So until we connect next time, I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy... :)