SAMIA: Hello, Salam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna and Privet! Really really good to be back with you... And you'll be so happy that you have joined us today because we have a very very special guest returning for a second interview because we had such a good time with Sanae last time... So welcome… welcome back Sanae...

SANAE: Thank you Samia... So nice to be back... Thank you for having me back… 

SAMIA: Yes it's a pleasure… I really did have such a fabulous time with you last time and we have just so much more to talk about… because for those of you if you missed the last episode we did with Sanae... please go check it out… she shared some brilliant insights and tips on how you can make marketing more fun and easy because Sanae is a Business Breakthrough Coach and also a Sales Mentor... Now today another really cool thing that Sanae has done is she is an author …she has written a really amazing awesome book and I would love for you to tell us more about that today Sanae... 

SANAE: Sure thank you... Well I think this may resonate with quite a lot of people …this part of my journey and the reason the book came about… So the book is called "Paid in Full"... and it's… Free Yourself From The Burden Of Debt And Live Your Best Life Now... So essentially it is my story and also a kind of step-by-step guide to how to free yourself from the burden of debt …so this is why I say it may resonate with a lot of people... so just a very quick kind of back story obviously as you know from the last conversation we had I've been in sales for 25 years now so when I started my business almost eight years ago I knew how to sell I felt confident about selling and so when I set up my business to help other coaching entrepreneurs to discover how to confidently and authentically sell and get rid of all the ick in the sleeze that was great and I was having a great time and I was helping these amazing coaches to sell their coaching and make money and all of this kind of thing... But there was this thing in the background that I knew …I didn't quite realize at the time but this thing in the background was really diminishing how I was showing up and how I was playing out in my business …as in it made me play small in my business... I didn't realize quite how much at the time... what I'm talking about is debt... So I am an absolute expert in debt and I say this because from the moment I turned 18 right up until this part of my journey the paid in full bit …23 years I was in debt and from like right from age 18 the first opportunity that I got to sign up and get a credit card I don't know why but I just did and then I got a couple of student loans out which back then when I was at university you didn't need to because we were funded and also we got government grants so I didn't need to borrow any money... but I just I took out the student loan …it was only a thousand that I was able to get and that kind of started this not freewheeling as such but this that first inkling of being in debt... I didn't know how I was going to pay off …I just assumed that post uni I'd get a job and it would magically be paid off... So fast forward 23 years every single year I think every single new year I had the new year's resolution that this year I was going to pay off my debt... So by virtue of it being every year you could tell that every year I didn't succeed... And so when I started my business there were moments where I really got you know got to the point where I had paid got close to the end but then something would happen or I'd be … a course would appear or I'd want to invest in myself my business and I built the debt back up... So whilst I was in my business I was investing in all sorts of courses coaches programs thinking that was going to be the thing that was going to help me pay off my debt and looking for the secret magic bullet that everyone kind of promises and I invested how tens of thousands and it never was... And so it was like this burden in the background this deep dark secret nobody knew... nobody knew in my family …not my partner at the time nobody knew …it was like my dirty secret …this debt… And I reached a point in early 2018 where I maxed out on my biggest credit card limit which was 18,000... I had lots of pockets of other credit cards all maxed out I had my overdraft three and a half thousand pounds and I had a loan a family loan …but when I went to pay something for less than 100 pounds on my credit card my biggest last bit of limit of 18,000 it declined that final payment... and in that moment I realized I'm maxed out I have no limit left and I'll never forget that moment because it was then I literally… just something switched inside of me and I broke… I fell to my knees I felt the blood drain out of my face... And I just this is my breaking point I didn't even know how much debt I had… I thought it was around 35,000 pounds which I think in us dollars maybe about 43 I don't know 40,000 and at that moment I just thought something has got to give… I'm on my knees here... And a few days later I  looked at …decided that this is what I'm gonna do... I'm gonna clear this debt and it came because so that was when the first moment the second thing that happened in that sort of enough is enough was I was on a conversa… having a conversation with another coaching friend of mine and I was still shaken from that hitting my limit and she could sense something was wrong …we've been friends for a while she knew something was wrong and she asked me and I told her about my debt and I said I think it's about 35,000... I've never told a soul… this is… I'm carrying it all on my own... And she said something so kind of strange maybe but she just said... well you're very strong …and I said very strong why what makes you say that what do you mean... she said well a lot of people commit suicide over less... And that for me just something just switched in my brain and after the call I did some research on suicide and debt and I realized this is real this is you know reaching a point where oh my goodness... so it was in that moment that I made a decision... that enough is enough …I needed to empower myself and I decided I'm going to pay this debt off in the next six months... That was what I decided …and if I succeed I had no clue how bearing in mind I've been trying to pay off for 23 years if I decide if I succeeded then I would write a book about it and share that with other people …and so that was a really pivotal moment for me just making that decision and then the journey started... And it I ended up realizing I was 50,000... So that's how much denial I was in I was actually 50,000 pounds in debt and I took myself on a journey really deep healing journey and in less than seven months all of the debt was gone... And that whole journey was so life-changing in so many ways and I learned so much about energy and spirituality …it was a spiritual journey I never imagined it but it turned out to be the one of the most spiritual journeys of my life that was transformational on every level... And so from there I then I wrote about my journey …I tracked myself and then I published the book so this is paid in full... And yeah so that then became like such a huge kind of well just life-changing for me... So yeah and then on as a result of publishing the book so many people then came forward …I was just astounded at the level of resonance that my story had when it came out... And people then said one person messaged me and said I'm waiting for the workbook I was like oh so that got me thinking and then I created a course tracking the exact steps I took and I got about 23 people …like I just put it out there I didn't know what to expect and I got 23 people in just in this kind of beta course if you like... And then when that eight weeks finished people started saying what next because we're on a roll people were actually clearing their credit cards in those eight weeks... And then after that somebody said a few people said you know can we continue somehow because we need that accountability we're on a roll we're just getting started and so that's when I created a membership... And just a low ticket just monthly membership for anyone who wants to just have that support through the course …we meet every week I coach them every week around their money stuff and the debt stuff and people have had phenomenal results... So it's just it's been one of those things where I think 23 years of pain and that it's almost like that's another essence of the purpose that I have if that makes sense... 

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SAMIA: It makes a lot of sense… it makes a lot of sense... And for sure... I mean you know based on the response… the amazing response that you've been getting to this work that you're doing that you're not alone in this …and like I can relate to so much of what you're saying… I… my journey was a little bit different with debt in the sense that I had zero... Zero debt in my life until I started my own business …because I come from an Indian Pakistani family and it's very interesting in our culture... if you're a middle-class family which I mean there's parts of my family that have more money …but by and large my immediate family we were living a middle-class lifestyle and you know living by those values… and for a middle class Indian middle-class Pakistani person debt is a terrible thing to take on... It's like we recognize what a huge trap it can be... And so like I know that my parents struggled with debt at various points in their life and and I grew up listening to my mom tell horror stories of how terrible you know trouble you can get into if you get into debt… and I you know… not only my family by the way but their story there were stories all around growing up of you know like literally like people even die because of issue related to debt... And so I you know never never thought I would fall into that …that kind of a problem... But when I started my business and I needed …like my parents helped me …my family helped me to the extent that they could with financing different aspects of my venture… but there came a time when I was like I can't take any more from my family I need to figure things out for myself... And the thing that got me I think was like you said this promise that gets made that you know all these programs and trainings and coaches are like work with us we will help you make money... and so I was like I'm making an investment in myself and in my business in my future …this is not just money or taking on debt to you know just blow it off and on some like personal thing or whatever and you know I'm going to make this investment and then it's going to pay itself back... And it just didn't work like that …and it was not that the services I signed up for …the programs I signed up for were bad...

SANAE: Absolutely...

SAMIA: But it's like I think the thing that I didn't realize was that the results that they were promising especially in the context of the timelines that they were promising like oh in the next three months you'll have this amazing result or within the next so many weeks you will have that amazing result you know …and it's like okay I wasn't able to generate those kinds of results in that kind of timeline... And in the meantime you know there's this debt and it's like growing and oh man so... yeah...

SANAE: Yeah... I think that's it's I mean it's such a common story isn't it and it is a it is a trap and it inadvertently it's a trap and I think what you were saying about your upbringing and the whole story the narrative around debt... And that's I think you know I think that's the common narrative that it's bad and don't get involved …and so I think that well that perpetuates the problem... Because what I discovered through doing the work on myself was …and bearing in mind that over those years it wasn't like I hadn’t… it wasn't through lack of trying that I wasn't getting out of debt... So I often compared myself to… I feel like a yo-yo dieter... So you see these people who lose all this weight and yet they're really happy and they look great and they feel amazing and proud of themselves …you see them two years down the line and it's all come back on and you know and it's just this yo-yoing... So I had tried every diet debt diet on the market or repayment strategies budgeting apps all these different methods to manage your money …and for whatever reason none of those external strategies worked... so it wasn't until I had hit that rock bottom for me was when I then decided none of these external strategies work …I need to turn the lights inwards with the spotlights on me and go within… that was the only place left for me... And so when you talk about kind of the narrative and about debt in your family and in society in general what I've discovered was that perpetuates the problem because we load debt with this meaning that it is like …it will get you into trouble which kind of when you believe something you will perpetuate it …but also the main resonance of the debt is shame... So if you get debt out if you take a credit card out or you set up an overdraft or you take out a loan to start growing your business what you're not realizing is you're taking on this frequency …you're triggering a dormant kind of belief system that is loaded with shame... So even a slight undetectable frequency you're then emitting shame… emitting shame... so as that shame is kind of becoming a part of your energy field it becomes very hard to clear the debt because you're in this conflict …this inner push-pull relationship because the shame is going out it's attracting more to be ashamed about more debt …so that was what I recognized like massively …and when I work with the people in the Paid In Full And Prospering Academy or talk to anyone who has debt... the biggest like... and because I knew it for me it was my dirty secret… it's loaded with shame... And so when you can clear that meaning then that puts you in a position back in control… back in power…

SAMIA: That is a very excellent point that you just raised... And it actually makes me think about this concept I was learning about from one of my coaches where he talked about good debt and bad debt... And also he …well his framing was also in the context of you know like what you were saying …it's like what's the story that you're telling about debt... So then like the good debt and the bad debt both in terms of… he said... so there's two levels at which you have to think about the issue... So one issue it's about well what are you taking the debt out for… to spend or to invest or not invest in... like if the debt that you're taking out just for expenses like that are going to add that debt… or is the debt you're taking out for an investment of some kind …of you know yeah …in some kind of a investment that you expect or have a plan to help you generate more funds more money… and so there's that aspect... But then like you said there's a back story of what does debt mean… and you have to look at good debt and bad debt from both of those… from both of those perspectives...

SANAE: Yeah because in and of itself debt is not bad... It's a… it provides opportunity… it enables you to make those investments now so you can grow your business... So in terms of the… you know it's neither good nor bad… but because we've been raised with these beliefs then the minute we apply for it that's then created this like resonance this frequency this energy that creates more negativity…

SAMIA: Yeah and you know in addition to I think the negative backstory that like for example I grew up with... there's also a lack of education around just the practicalities of when it makes sense take out debt... So for example… one of the things that we… that I was learning from this particular coach… he was talking about okay you have to first of all know your numbers… like you can't… like you said you didn't even know how much debt you were in...

SANAE: Yeah... you're in denial… yeah...

SAMIA: Exactly… like you have to know your numbers… you have to know how much debt you are in if you are in any debt... you also have to know your income… you have to know your expenses… you have to learn… like you need to... only when you know all of those numbers can you come to any kind of proper conclusion about okay this much debt I can afford to you know invest or take on because you know based on my income and this and that you know this is what I could pay off etc etc... but like if you don't even know the numbers you can't even begin to create any kind of realistic plan or solution... So...

SANAE: Yeah...yeah...yeah… I… so I agree and I think when… so when you... you know as I said… I didn't even know how much debt I had…I was in… because I was in that state of shame and so much fear around it that I just assumed you know I couldn't even go there because I just thought if I know exactly how much debt I am in it would be too painful… too overwhelming... So part of the process that I take people through and it’s in the book is I've called it "Acknowledging what is"... And acknowledging what is… is on multiple levels… so the first thing you need to do is as you've just said acknowledge your numbers... You've got to just be completely frank and honest and get exactly how much debt you owe… who you owe it to… what are the interest rates… what's the terms and conditions… what... So when you do that and you know when… I remember in the book saying… I know it… I'm telling you like yeah... just create a spreadsheet and write all your debt down… but it's not going to be easy… And you may do that in a state of absolute you know crying your eyes out and feeling terrible and all this shame coming up… so that's the first thing of acknowledging what is... is actually knowing your numbers... The second part of acknowledging what is… is actually sitting in the emotion because when you sit in the emotion... that's when it starts to dissipate... Because we spend so much time avoiding those horrible feelings… I didn't look at my bank account… why would I want to look at my bank account because it feels painful so I'm just going to push it away and I'm not going to acknowledge it... And so you're constantly like it's like a pressure cooker you're pushing down those painful feelings because nobody wants to feel that… but when you actually take the lid off and I mean... the first time when I started (taking note of) all my numbers and I saw 35 was actually 37… out the next one oh my god it's 40... you know 40... oh my god it's actually 45… oh my god it's actually… you know... And as it the numbers were mounting my body was shaking… literally shaking… I could feel the tears of just… everything was like alarm bells… my whole nervous system was on high alert… and so as I sat there and I just allowed myself to be in the pain of it… and it took a few sessions of just sitting in it… but slowly and surely the emotions were able to have a release… because I was in… just allowing myself... So that's the second part… acknowledging the emotion of shame or fear or whatever guilt doesn't matter… just allow it to come... Then the third part of acknowledging what is... is once you… it's like I always picture it like layers… once the emotional layers have been released and dissipated what then is allowed to come up are all the stories that you hold on to… the narratives… the meaning that you've given the debt... So once all that shame I'd allowed to come up then I heard you're out of control you're a loser you don't deserve you're you know you're out of control... all these stories that were beneath holding the emotion in place that I was… that were like a broken record but I hadn't properly taken the time to listen to... So it was just such a freeing experience to actually allow myself to sit in that… it's not pretty and it's not fun but it feels so good once you've allowed yourself to just be honest… that's what it is… it's being honest with yourself…

SAMIA: Right and the thing is that it may not be fun in the moment… but if you truly just allow yourself to feel your emotions they will dissipate way more quickly than you can even imagine first of all... and then when they have dissipated... then it opens up space to create some fun in your life...

SANAE: Yeah yeah… because you… if you think about how much energy it takes to just maintain the status quo when your nervous system is on hyper vigilance... It takes so much energy... So when you can release some of that energy that's holding everything down because god forbid if you feel it it'll hurt… once you release it like you say creative energy you've got more vitality and more access to your own resourcefulness… because when you're stressed you have no access to your intuition your inspired resourcefulness… all of that good stuff… So...

SAMIA: Right... and when you're dealing with such difficult… just issues... difficult things that… things that have been difficult for you… to be able to introduce an element of laughter in the process… it can be so healing… just to be able to get yourself to a place where you can look at what you experienced and just find some humor in it you know… and not be able to... and be able to you know just sort of realize okay like I turned it into this big dark thing and this huge burden but actually from this other perspective that I can now take because I released the shame and the guilt and all these other negative emotions… I can just... I can just you know like… you know like acknowledge what is… but then you know it's like realize that oh part of the recognition of what is… is that you know like... oh like there's just this... like it's that it… you realize okay I'm not in this alone… there's other people who have dealt with it and dealt with that in a way that you know it has allowed them to actually resolve the problem and do it with… you know… grace… and do it with a strength and become even stronger… you know... So just every… every realization that you have of this sort… you know it just… for me it just sort of… oh it's not such a deep dark thing anyway and not such a burden after all... And you know so the more you go through that… then you actually begin to also imagine… and then eventually you're able to see and feel and experience that it actually can also be easy… that it is easy to you know like...

SANAE: It is...

SAMIA: yeah…

SANAE: And that's the thing… I mean it is easy... Once you can clear that like you say the negative emotion… and even so you know when I just… when I made that decision I'm gonna pay this off in six months… even after 23 years of setting new year's resolutions and never doing it… and I set this goal… six months… and if I do it in six months I'm going to write about it... I have to write about it because I need to tell people how I did it... So in that moment I had no clue how I was going to do it… but I didn't actually honestly Samia… I didn't do anything different externally… but the debt started to diminish and I felt happier… just happy… more peaceful… more content… and all of that charge had gone… all of that pain had gone... And so the debt was diminishing all by itself without …obviously not all by itself if you know what I mean… but it wasn't that I'd suddenly gone out… I was budgeting fiercely or I'd finally got my head around a new strategy... I just carried on doing what I was doing but with more conscious awareness… and the debt was getting paid off easily… smoothly... I was having more fun… and when I was having more fun I was getting more clients… more money was coming in… and when it got to the six-month mark… because I was working with a coach at the time… at the six-month mark I still hadn't paid off all of it… I still had a good chunk left... but I felt so bloody happy... And I said to my coach what now… what now... because I know the debt isn't paid off but I don't care anymore... I just don't care anymore… and she was like… and I said what's next… and she went… write the damn book… and I was like okay… And it was when I started writing the book then... The very next month I had my biggest ever month and that… it just cleared the rest of the debt… And I was like oh my god… within just under seven months… fifty thousand pounds in debt gone and now I've written the book... And this is the thing that's important to add… and I… and people talk about the law of attraction and you know I could have made that decision to pay off the debt six-months previously and somebody could have walked into my life a week later through law of attraction serendipity coincidence whatever… and handed me a check for 50,000 pounds to clear your debt… and I could have taken that check and said woohoo look what I've attracted cleared my debt... but you can guarantee that within three-months… six-months… I'd be straight back in debt…

SAMIA: Yeah...

SANAE: Because I hadn't done the inner work... And this is why it's so important to understand your money story… your money paradigms… when you can heal those the external world becomes a reflection...

SAMIA: Yeah...

SANAE: Of your new state of consciousness... So my new state of consciousness around debt was completely neutral... I didn't care anymore… I was joyful anyway… and that's when everything shifted… and that again… that became a life changer in all areas of my life… I just realized that I can apply this to anything and everything...

SAMIA: Oh my gosh… oh my gosh... And you know what you just said about being joyful anyway...that is such a deeply spiritual place to be in... I think people don't realize… you know when we talk about spirituality and we talk about... like people don't understand the power of joy… people don't understand… you know it's when you are in that joyful energy things are fun things are easy... And that joyful state is such a deep spiritual state because like for me the way that I learned to understand that was… you know as a Muslim we are taught that God has 99 names which describe different aspects… different characteristics of God... like the nature of God… And so when you know you think about… okay well what is our source of peace… what is our source of joy… as a Muslim I've been taught that God is our source of peace… God is our source of joy... And so the more joyful I feel… the more peaceful I feel… the more happy I feel… actually that is me being more deeply connected with God… So the more like I'm connecting… more deeply to the source… and that's the thing isn't it also that I think a lot of people don't realize is that being happy… being joyful… it's not like you are or you aren't... There is so much depth to like the experience… in fact your capacity… our capacity to experience joy peace happiness... It's actually infinite... and so no matter how happy you already are… there is room to grow… no matter how joyful you are there's room to grow... And the more you grow in this context actually the more deeply you're connecting to source… to the source of peace and joy right and that is...

SANAE: Yeah it's a state of being… I think it's the state of being… and when you can bring that like I think peace love and joy… they are not emotions… they are states of being… and they're like you say they're deep states of being that are our natural inherent states... So for me I always think the growth journey with this is a bit of a cliché isn't it... The growth journey is not about learning.. it's about unlearning... So as we're peeling back constantly the layers of the onion of limiting belief and erroneous fear and negative emotions and stories and meanings that we've given things that are just perspectives and filters… and we take those filters off and take the blinkers off …we're constantly just getting more and more into that deep state... And one of the biggest kind of outcomes at the end of the book when I was… when I kind of put that full stop on it… I was like oh my god this is it... the profound level of joy that I felt as a result of going on that healing journey... I've realized that I was postponing joy...

SAMIA: Yeah...

SANAE: Constantly postponing joy and that was the biggest thing and that's still the biggest thing I see every almost daily… people… entrepreneurs postpone joy because they think when I achieve this then I'll be happy… and it's when I achieve this amount of money or get these clients or whatever… and it's like no... no... When you feel joy now then you'll attract the money the clients the prosperity the… you know the wealth… whatever it is you want that is a match to that joy for you… it will come in… and it's about just freeing yourself of judgment of this current situation you're in... Stop judging your situation and just accept it and be joyful anyway… that's not easy… it's… I'm not saying that's easy… but it's doable… and I think it's... well actually I'll say it's simple but it's not necessarily easy...

SAMIA: And you know I will just say that it's not easy only as long as you have that story that it's not easy...

SANAE: Yeah... it's the judgment…

SAMIA: Yeah it's like…

SANAE: That's the judgment...

SAMIA: ..It’s the story that we tell ourselves you know that you know just like you realized by going through your journey about you know this healing over the issue of debt and you came to the point of realizing that oh actually releasing debt that you have solving it can be fun and can get to the point that's fun and easy... and not getting into debt in the first place is also possible and you can do that by staying in a place of being joyful and so forth… because then you're you know it's about maintaining that high frequency that high vibration high energy that allows you to continue to attract abundance and keep it in your life...

SANAE: Yeah...

SAMIA: You know in the same way I realized that you know actually the idea that we have that there are circumstances where things are not going to be easy... That's actually in itself a limiting belief that we have created... It's a story that we told ourselves... And actually this is one of the biggest insights I've been learning from my spiritual mentor that I'm working with now… and my spiritual mentor he's like... you know Samia for all of us who are on this journey… our spiritual journey… and committed to our spiritual growth… really our goal is to cultivate this… our goal is to cultivate joy and gratitude every moment... And that's the state we want to live in every moment… And you might not be there yet but it is possible... It is possible to do and you have to believe that… because like you… we were talking about this earlier… like if you don't even believe something is possible it's for sure never going to be true for you...

SANAE: Yeah yeah… absolutely absolutely… And I think the other thing I just would add and this again came as a realization through this part of the journey... Is that when we are in a situation that we perceive is bad and we label it bad… we're not seeing the bigger picture …because it's almost like there are no bad things …because we can choose that if some …so if a situation is perceived as bad like I held on to my debt for 23 years because I perceived that whole situation as being really bad... Now I'm on the other side of it and I'm helping other people get out of debt and I have all this joy and fulfillment from doing that... I realized that thank you debt for being with me and creating that understanding… that almost expertise about what how to get into debt really badly in order for me to have to hit rock bottom so I could get out of it and then turn around and teach others... And so the situation now with hindsight wasn't bad… it felt bad at the time because I'd labeled it so... And so I think often the universe has to step in and give you situations that you need to grow and overcome so that you become the next level you…. So bigger picture it's never bad because with hindsight you're thankful for that situation...

SAMIA: Yes.. And so here's another thing… oh my gosh …so here's another thing …like for sure I actually came to that same realization with regards to the big trauma I had experienced growing up in my life… the trauma of being a sexual abuse survivor... And I got to a point where I realized just like you did… oh I learned so much from that… I learned so much from that… I'm a better stronger person now because I went through that... So that was like one level of realization about why what happened to me wasn't “bad”... I’m saying that in quotes…

SANAE: Yeah...

SAMIA: The other realization that I had... This took a little while longer... That you know like again this idea of... even when I was going through the struggle part of my journey the universe was constantly trying to help me help myself… heal myself… but I wasn't ready for whatever reason to receive that learning… to receive that feedback… to accept that learning… accept that feedback… Like you said I was postponing joy... I didn't think of it like that… that’s what it was… but that is in fact what I was doing... So I could have actually reached the point of healing joy peace potentially way sooner… yeah… but I also had to get to a certain breaking point where I was like no more… So sometimes you know that's just how we are you know that we need to get to that breaking point… But I just… since we're talking about… you know how… oh my gosh like it doesn't have to be that way… you don't have to get to the breaking point before you can get to the other side where you know you start growing and healing and so forth... It is possible… because that's another limiting belief that we can sort of fall into and be like you have to get to the breaking point before you get… NO… you don't have to anything…

SANAE: Yeah it's a choice...

SAMIA: It's a choice you know... And it's just again like you may not be in a place where you're ready and willing to make that choice or feel able to make that choice… like you may not be in a place where that seems possible to you… and that's totally fine if that's where you are at... just keep going in your journey and...

SANAE: Yeah... I think it's in the suffering that it's almost like quote-unquote easier to kind of to go to the level of suffering before you decide and you flip and you... because your brain has this cognitive dissonance that is so extreme that you just think I can't take it anymore... Up to that point often you're not even aware of the level of what's happening because you're in a comfort zone or maybe it's complacency or just unawareness… so sometimes it's just you you're trundling along without realizing that something does need to change you know... And so I think sometimes… and I think as well we are so …like when I think about me and the debt and what happened leading… or what was going on for all those years up until the moment I just decided and I cleared it in six months for crying out loud why couldn't I have done that so many years earlier... it was because I was so familiar with that background static that I just almost learned to live with it as it was so familiar and safe… and that I think that is probably the reason why we just it becomes a part of our nervous system's natural survival and therefore we don't even… we don't even know we're not even aware of it until breaking point...

SAMIA: That's right… that's right... yeah… So I think you know the last thing that I will say and then we'll wrap up you know it's just… my takeaway message… like those of you who are listening to us right now… the one thing that I want you to be able to take away from this is… number one... know that it can be fun and easy to heal yourself from this problem of debt and what leads to it… it can be fun and easy and...

SANAE: Yeah...

SAMIA: …also just know …just know that wherever you're in your journey with that it's totally fine… no pressure around that… and if you want to speed up the process and you want to make it more fun and easy now without needing to get to some breaking point that's also possible… just know… just know that… just think about it… just have that in the back of your mind...

SANAE: Yeah... It's and it's about... you can decide now to completely take your power back… Take your power back… that I mean that really for me was the first thing I did… I am damn well taking my power back… and you know and that was almost like the decision was step one… the decision this is gonna happen I'm totally taking my power back… I'm not relinquishing power to debt anymore… and it was like… turn the tables… and for me that was an immediate shift... So that you know I just want to add that yes you can have it be fun and easy and end the suffering… end the suffering.... Yes… Stop postponing joy...

SAMIA: Yeah… oh my gosh... Oh my gosh I think I have to make a banner or something… stop postponing joy...

SANAE: Yes... huge… huge… it's everything really…

SAMIA: Okay thank you again Sanae...

SANAE: Oh we ran out of time… I'm loving this conversation Samia... Thank you…

SAMIA: Yeah... honestly I could just keep going but we do need to wrap up for the day...

SANAE: Thank you…

SAMIA: And I just want to remind you… our dear listener… that you should check… please check the show notes... and click on the links in the show notes… we're adding Sanae's links in the show notes... I'm going to also add my links in the show notes... So if you need to get in touch get some help get some support please do that... And until we connect next time I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy :).