SAMIA: Hello, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal, Aloha, Holah, Ciao, Bonjour, Buna, and Privet!It's really really good to be with you again. And I'm really happy about the amazing guests that we have with us today. And it's Shauna Van Mourik... and Shauna is a copywriter and content strategist. And I'm so happy to have you with us Shauna… Welcome... 

SHAUNA: Thank you so much for having me... 

SAMIA: And I will have you jump right in and tell us more about who you are and what you do...

SHAUNA: Absolutely… All right... So yes... Shauna Van Mourik and actually you know what's really funny is that you… we were talking about my name prior and you said it more Dutch this time around than I could have ever tried to say it... So that was perfect... 

SAMIA: Ah!

SHAUNA: So beautiful… And I'm like you say a copywriter and content strategist and I focus on what I like to call "the 2 icities"... which won't surprise you... I like language... I like the way it goes… So I've made up my own word "the 2 icities"... They are authenticity... and simplicity…The reason I like to focus on these things is because the more authentic you become... the simpler life and business and of course copywriting and content strategy gets... The simpler it gets... the more authentic you can be… Once you have your hand on this circular motion happening where we can just feed off of these two amazing notions to really emerge and blossom as our unique and authentic selves in a way that feels laid back... simple and fun…In addition to that of course because I come from a marketing space... this also really helps you stand out and get noticed by your dream clients… So why the heck not... 

SAMIA: Yes! Why the heck not... And I just absolutely love your value and focus on authenticity and simplicity... And wow the idea that the two actually support each other... that… I… my gosh is …the more I'm thinking about it the more it makes sense.... It's brilliant… 

SHAUNA: It really does... And it's really cool because it's a harmony... it's a harmony because… and people speak about it all the time… about how you just become at ease with who you are... how you stop caring what other people think… And then how choices become easier... actions become easier... life becomes easier... People talk about manifestation... It's the same idea… Things start to fall into place… 

SAMIA: Yeah…

SHAUNA: All this harmony that kind of moves you forward and allows you to present yourself in such a way that really attracts what is necessary in your world… 

SAMIA: Yeah… Yeah... oh my gosh… Okay… So I have a question... 

SHAUNA: I love questions…

SAMIA: So when you talk about being authentic... making things more simple… at one level for sure exactly what you're saying as you were saying it makes a lot of sense... And then I started thinking about myself and I was like... okay if I'm being really authentic for example in the way that I speak... I have a few quirks to how I do it... One I am a philosopher by nature... I actually have philosophers... like philosophy is in  my family… my grandfather was a literal professional philosophy professor…And while I didn't go into it professionally... I definitely am a philosopher at heart… And so I tend to speak very philosophically… And so when it comes to communicating my ideas with people... I often feel a sense of... a sense of... like most people will not get my style... Like I go too deep... too fast... I use… I tend to use like technical terms that are familiar to mebut you know may not be familiar to other people... And so I have sort of gotten into the habit of… sort of consciously being like Samia... you know are you expressing what you need to say simply enough... And so is that a good thing for me to do... Or is that taking me more in the direction of inauthenticity... Or Is this not what we're really talking about in the context of authenticity...

SHAUNA: Those are all really great questions… And like any complicated question... the answer isn't super simple either... However, we can definitely make it accessible... So as you were discussing your center... your emotions behind these two ways of presenting yourself… I thought about it in two ways naturally... So you've got yes... you want to be authentic to yourself yes you're a philosopher I can totally resonate with that... I tend to gravitate towards that contemplative what if space… let's use rhetoric let's find the truth of things... I totally understand that… And so we don't want you to detach from that... that brings you joy that fills your cup... And you said specifically you know that may not attract most people... But the question there is do you want to attract most people... Or do you want to attract the right people...

SAMIA: Right…

SHAUNA: And I mean these words make sense from a standpoint of who you are… who you want to surround yourself with as a person... because we are humans first... regardless of I mean I work with a lot of businesses who do marketing we're gonna approach that next... But as a person... who you want to surround yourself with will be those people... they're the people who are going to bring you light they're gonna light your fire and really get you moving on to creating a bigger impact in all that you're doing... Now reflecting on the authentic part of that in the marketing space... I know based on our conversations that you're also a teacher... you share insights... you share… the great… greatest teachers in the world were these people who just stepped forward and discussed ideas and notions... And in being a teacher you need to be able to meet your pupils where they're at… Same goes with marketing... you need to be able to meet your audience where they are... And in doing that you're going to take away some of the jargon... Yeah... you're going to use some less… less complicated notions or methods of thought… So that you can bring people to that level of understanding... And that is authentic... that is you reaching out and inviting people into your world who may not have otherwise been able to access that... So it is absolutely authentic to be able to take out the jargon... to be able to refine your messaging which is really important in all copywriting and marketing... and just target that audience who wants to be there… who wants to be in that space... But maybe they're not there yet…

SAMIA: Yeah… And I think one of the ways that I also love to think about it is in terms of just my own personal growth... because one of my mentors you know he says the people who are truly masters at what they're doing have also developed the ability to communicate what they are wanting to communicate about whatever their area of mastery is in a way that is simple and effective… So it's also just me working on my own mastery to work on this aspect of how I communicate…

SHAUNA: Absolutely… One of the best questions that you can ask yourself as a business owner and simply as a person right... is how would you explain what you do who you are to a five-year-old... 

SAMIA: Right… 

SHAUNA: Right... That idea and I've had to… I'm a mother of three... I have a currently a three-year-old a five-year-old and a seven-year-old… And they're beautiful children and they're quick... they're quick kids …but still they're three five and seven... So when they say you know... well Mom why do you have another call… What are you doing with this… Why are you on your computer all the time... To be able to translate copywriting and content marketing strategy... to a child... allows me a different level of understanding what I do... 

SHAUNA: Yeah… 

SAMIA: And when they want more details that makes it even more fun... because then I get to look at okay so I'm trying to help this person to tell more people about how they can help them… and we start getting into this spiral… and the more you do it... and this is true for authenticity and simplicity… keeping things simple... The more you do it the practice that you get from doing it... the better you get at it.. and the mastery you have of it…

SAMIA: Hmm… I love it... I absolutely love everything you have been sharing... So can you maybe talk about a problem that you see people struggling with as they try to engage in copywriting and content strategy in an authentic and simple way…

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SHAUNA: Yeah absolutely… So the biggest… the first thing that popped in my head is fear... And it's hard to broach that topic because it's very wide… it's very wide-reaching... So you've got impostor syndrome right... When you just …you don't think that you're as good as you're saying you are or you don't think you can achieve the results that you have in fact achieved in the past but you have the second thoughts and all those hard things… And then there's things like esteem... your self-esteem… this fear of putting yourself out into the world …this can be triggered by any number of things including things like trauma… And let's face it our media is not friendly to a wide variety of people unless you look and act a certain way... The media is not necessarily friendly to you... And so there are a lot of different angles in which fear can present itself… So that winds up being a huge hiccup... And what that looks like... more often than not... is either you don't show up... Very plain and simple…. You don't show up... You show up inconsistently because you keep having these hiccups you keep having these hesitations or... and or when you're showing up it's copycat …you have a cookie… you've got this cookie-cutter copy that is inauthentic to you… that you've just said... Well it's working for Sally Joe… So I guess I should do it... And then you go on… you try to do it... you do not see the same results because who knew… you're not Sally Joe... So it's this dynamic and you're not achieving the success that you could otherwise achieve... if you could really step through... And I'm never going to ask you to not be afraid... because being scared is so important… And you cannot be brave if you were not already scared in the first place... So what I ask of you is to step through the fear... walk through it... and emerge on the other side courageously showing up as who you are as only you can…

SAMIA: Oh my gosh... you know this idea of fear being at the bottom of what's holding us back... It's an idea I've been contemplating a lot recently... And you know when coming to this conclusion that really it's fear pretty much almost always at the bottom of like whatever issues we are struggling with... and like one way or the other when you get to the very deepest levels of digging to get to the root of it... Fear is there… 

SHAUNA: Absolutely…

SAMIA: Yeah… Oh my gosh... And so often also I think you know like some of the fears that you mentioned in terms of whether it's self-esteem or whether it's you know that imposter syndrome… I mean… it's like… that's what we see... even that is sometimes more like surface level... And under… underlying that …one of my mentors… you know I didn't believe this for a long time but one of my mentors she said… at the bottom of all of that is usually "I'm not enough"... That's really the root... And so you know that anything that you can do to uproot that idea of you not being enough... that revolutionizes our life... 

SHAUNA: It really does... And that fear of not being enough... it can come from so many different places... And so your evolution in that space is going to look different than anyone else... And that's why it's so important to have a community surrounding you that will help you to move forward... And I'm going to argue to... that's why it's so important to show up... Even when you may not think that you have a community around you... showing up… being brave…. That's going to really impact not only yourself but people you don't even know who are watching you... That’s so true… cheering you on from the sidelines… 

SAMIA: Yes…

SHAUNA: The ripple effect of you really... I like to say you know you flying your freak flag... Whatever that is that you think is not enough... fly that flag high right... Somebody is watching you and somebody is waiting to hear what you have to say... as only you can say it… And it will change their life... And in you doing that again we're going to go back to practice... this practice will help you to kind of step out of yourself and realize how I did that thing… And nothing doesn't need to be... don't get me wrong I'm not the person I would never push somebody to breaking point... I'm a pretty big lover of yoga and things like that... So stretching moving your body… And when you're doing that you're really invited to take the stretch to where it feels a little bit uncomfortable... a little bit… but not too far... Because that's going to hold you up... that's actually going to hold you back that dressing…. So bend don't break right... Get yourself out there... If that looks like you showing up on a podcast... awesome… great… do that… But if that looks like you know what I think I'm going to tell people that this is my business... And you include… I've had this conversation with other people in the past where if let's say you write a lot of emails and you haven't really included your title in your business because you were a little bit nervous... you're like you know what I think that's my bend... I'm gonna put VA or I'm trying to invent all these other whatever coach maybe you're actually going to say transformational life coach underneath your name... And every email you send out it's there... maybe people will notice maybe it won't... but maybe that's your bend without breaking... And each time you stretch that muscle a little bit more... you're gonna be able to expand that reach... you're gonna be able to show up more authentically and really lean into who you truly are...

SAMIA: Yeah... you know that is another excellent point... this stretching strategy... I absolutely love it... And for sure you know when you're trying to learn a new skill also like copywriting and content strategy or trying to at least learn enough about it that like I don't know if I'll ever be a master at copywriting and content strategist... And I don't have to be a master at it because I'm a happiness expert... But I do want to learn enough about it so that when I... for example if I am working with someone to help me with copywriting and content strategy I can tell the difference between when someone's done a good job and when they haven’t you know... and sometimes I do have to write some of my own copy… And so I need to know certain at least a certain you know fundamental basic level of it… You know and so just to have this attitude... just learning and growing... I'm gonna get better and better at it over time... I love that... So that makes me actually think... can you give us a few tips on like what effective copywriting involves... yeah...

SHAUNA: I would love to… And what's cool about that is that I've actually... and this goes back to you know I love that you were like oh because I'm a happiness expert... I'm like because I like to make things fun and interesting and memorable... And just like if you've got to do the dishes you might as well put bubbles in the water you know like just do something... So what I've done with this is... I've made it into… really an acronym... it's three words that represent the basics... very core basics of copywriting... And it is called "You Need Copy"... So you stands for something that stands for you... And I don't mean you as in me... I mean you as in your audience… I mean keep it about them… Try not to use too many of the I's... I's and we’s and … I hate to say it… they don't care about you... They care about their own problems and the solution that they could find for their problems... So keep it about your audience… need... establish need... Make sure that they understand why this is so valuable to them... and the impact that it can have on their lives… There are a lot of different ways that you can establish need... One of the most effective ways is through storytelling... To explore how you can use that to establish need in your audience... And then the last thing of course is copy... copy are words that get people to take action... So don't forget to include a call to action...if you omit the call to action people don't know what to do next... They recognize that okay this is for me okay... yes I have this problem and I want this transformation... But then you've left them hanging... they don't know where to find it... show them... Take their hand... use it and create copy that drives action... click this link... book this phone call... drop your email below... All of these things are calls to action...

SAMIA: Yes… And I love the examples that you just gave of a call to action because I remember especially in my early days... I used to think about okay I want to do a call to action... And I used to make it way too complicated… But going back to the principle of simplicity... no keep it simple... And it really can be as simple as click that button or drop your email in that... Yeah... I love it…

SHAUNA: And that's the core about copywriting... is that you want it to be very simple and direct… You want it to have personality... you want to tell a story... you want to get creative about it... But it really does in the end you need to be very direct... A confused mind doesn't buy... And when I say buy... I don't necessarily mean monetary buy... I mean investing their time and energy and whatever you have to offer even if it is just to read your next blog...

SAMIA: Right… Right... exactly... And I think also it challenges us to take into consideration the fact that you know like when we make very complicated asks for people it just... it's like every layer of …like if you're asking them to do two things or three things or four things all at once... God forbid …that's a lot… But it's like for each thing then they have to think "am I willing to do this?" You know and at each stage it might be... "No I'm not"... you know… and so you're actually reducing your chances versus if you just make one ask... there's only one opportunity that they have to think about… Do I want to take this or not...

SHAUNA: Absolutely... And this actually goes back to one of my principles the methods that I really rely heavily on when I'm going through all of my copywriting and content strategy... is if you've ever read the book the one thing …that is really crucial to all of what you're doing… I combined this method... and I'll touch on it... I'll combine this methodology with a number of others like the 12 week year which I also love… all these planning and organizational things for content marketing really helpful... But that one thing… what is one thing you can do today that will make everything else easier or unnecessary... It's so important... Make that same choice on behalf of your audience when you're writing your copy so they can just… everything else is unnecessary… This one thing is all you need to do it... to solve your problems... Book a call your problems will be solved… on that call yeah you're going to ask them how they'd like to pay or whatever... But like you need to be very clear and directive and make it easy for them to action if y whatever it is you're requesting…

SAMIA: Yes exactly... And I think also this is like the key difference that earlier you were talking about the you need copy… right... And I think this is… you beautifully highlighted the difference between you know just somebody having great let's say storytelling skill and the difference between copywriting for the purposes of creating sales… because there are actually lots of programs that are out there to teach you how to be a great speaker like in a general context and you become a great storyteller... you're able to you know go on stage and have a great presence… But those programs a lot of times they don't teach you about the part of how do you get people to take action you know... and so these amazing speakers storytellers get on stage …move people in amazing ways... But then they leave audiences nothing changes... And that's really sad... you know especially for like a person like me or our other audience who are changemakers or coaches and trainers and healers etc... We're not just about you know creating change for ourselves or entertaining people with our stories or whatever... we are out in the world because we want to change people's lives... we want to change the world in positive ways... And so we have to know how to be able to move people into action... And so I so appreciate what you're teaching... and why I think it's so important for us as changemakers to know the skill of copywriting... at least like I said in the basics even if we are not going to become expert copywriters…

SHAUNA: Absolutely… And it's really cool because and this is me... I'm gonna geek out a little bit on you guys… So like copywriting is words that get people to take action... A lot of my root training comes from psychology and rhetoric... And rhetoric is the art of persuasion... very simply put… and a lot of that stems from ancient Greece with Aristotle and Plato and in the Sophists... And what's really interesting is that that actually stems from a very oratory practice where people would speak in a very persuasive manner… And the rhetoric... true rhetoric is compared going back to philosophy because it's this you're seeking truth... you're looking to find the truth of things... And in copywriting you could imagine... let's say a coach is using copywriting to in the rhetorical sense to seek truth... you're trying to present somebody with this problem exists for you... You need this solution... we know that... We now established that this solution is what you need… This is how you get it and how you get it is that call to action. And so that's where you drive the action towards a solution... And so you see that in the spoken form as well... The only part that... and this is where a lot of people get hung up too with the fear because a lot of people associate copywriting with sales... And then a lot of sales with sleazy sales…

SAMIA: Right… 

SHAUNA: Used car salesman… you get that all the time... And what that is... is BS rhetoric... That is rhetoric used to persuade in a way that it's not good... it's not authentic... It's not.. it's not got your best… your audience's best interest in mind… In short it's propaganda… 

SAMIA: Right…

SHAUNA: Right... And so using rhetoric really ethically is important as well... because as changemakers... as legacy creators… we need to make sure that the legacy that we're leaving is that of positive change... positive impact... We need to be seekers of truth... not just purveyors of popular opinion or maybe not popular opinion that you try to make popular for your own benefit… That's not the way we work here... We want to keep it simple and wholesome and true to you and true to the betterment of everyone... I'm getting a little hokey here but I just...

SAMIA: No... I get it… And you know what… you made me think of that quote... with great power comes great responsibility… And actually you know this skill that copywriting as you so beautifully said is really all about… it’s like tapping into our ability to persuade people... oh my gosh of course it's a skill... but it's also a power… And it's a great power... And it's a power that I guess all of us want... who doesn’t want the power to persuade… but with great power right… with great power comes great responsibility... And so I am so appreciative of you bringing in this ethical aspect… And you know it goes back to you know the values you started talking about… you know authenticity and simplicity and how they're to work together... And in order to make that happen you have to be brave and use your power responsibly… 

SHAUNA: Absolutely… 

SAMIA: Amazing… Amazing.... Shauna I'm having such a fabulous time talking with you... And we have to begin to wrap up for right now… Do you have any last words of wisdom that you want to share with us or just anything else that you want to say...

SHAUNA: Yeah... you know what... I love philosophy and I love the nature of our conversation... It's definitely lit my fire and I... it just brings me joy... That said… we also discussed a lot of somewhat heavier notions... And I want to encourage everyone who's watching to play... to play… And the reason I say this and I've actually I spoke on a panel recently that where I had to kind of bring everybody around again to this idea of play... because we are still living our lives while we're doing all of this... And we want to make sure that when we're presenting ourselves... when we're trying to be brave and courageous... when we're using our persuasion ethically that we're doing so playfully... yes…That we also invite people into this space and we do trial and error that we kind of know might fail but we do it anyways... Because hey... why not? And embrace that... embrace that playful curious attitude while you're approaching all this... Because you're gonna fail whether you plan to or not you're gonna fail... And the best way to truly enjoy your failure when… that sounds very contradictory but it's true… you can enjoy that failure… is to keep that playful attitude just to say... Well that didn't work… What's next…

SAMIA: Exactly…And really you know failure is feedback is one of my favorite things... and it's so true failure is just feedback... And it's just... I mean that's just how life works... I think there's another thing about how life doesn't come with a manual... but it does give you lots of feedback… So you can learn and you can grow and have fun in the process... I love it… 

SHAUNA: You might as well... I truly believe...

SAMIA: Yeah…

SHAUNA: you might as well have fun with it… Okay so this bad thing happened... All right let's find the good... look for the good… 

SAMIA: Exactly… and then it's not bad anymore... because bad is a perception... It's a perspective that we have and we can choose to switch our perspective to one that is more happiness promoting... more peace promoting... more fun promoting... and all of that also creates more ease for us in our lives… so... my gosh you just hit the secret of how to make change fun and easy… I love it... 

SHAUNA: Perfect! 

SAMIA: Thank you so much Shauna... again just I really really appreciate your having joined us today... and shared all of your... not all of your wisdom... You have lots more wisdom to share… and so I want to encourage you …our listener …to please make sure you check our show notes... connect with Shauna... Because you know she has lots more wisdom to share and lots more amazing tips to share and strategies to share with you... So make sure you connect with her and get the help and support you need to learn how you can become more persuasive and maybe get her help to smooth out your copywriting... 

SHAUNA: Okay I won't bite... I also like to make friends... let's have fun… 

SAMIA: Yeah exactly... so click on those show notes... connect with Shauna... And until we connect next time... I just wish you lots and lots of peace and joy :)